Pine Martens

Half-cocked

Just wondering if anyone has had any problems with Pine Martens taking poults? Do they wreak havoc like mink or just take the odd bird? I know they are protected and must be left alone, just curious if I have a problem on my hands. Trail cam picked up a regular visitor only 100 metres from our pen and we took delivery of 400+ 8 week old poults on Saturday. On a happier note, all the grey squirrels have disappeared!:D

alsace royal

martens should be no bother to you iv had hens about 20 years now never had one taking by the marten, mind you i only keep between 6 and 10 just for eggs not your kinda numbers, the biggest prob iv had is they keep going into my mink traps and getting caught. if you tought they were going to be a prob you could trap him and release him off a safe distance from your spot, they seem to go mad for herring in oil if you want to try but unless they bother you id let them rock on doing their own thing, but that just me

moloney

if he gets in u wont have much left know a lad had fifty in a pen and the martin killed the lot

Half-cocked

alsace royal wrote: »

martens should be no bother to you iv had hens about 20 years now never had one taking by the marten, mind you i only keep between 6 and 10 just for eggs not your kinda numbers, the biggest prob iv had is they keep going into my mink traps and getting caught. if you tought they were going to be a prob you could trap him and release him off a safe distance from your spot, they seem to go mad for herring in oil if you want to try but unless they bother you id let them rock on doing their own thing, but that just me

Thanks for the info, that's a relief to hear. I have fenn traps permanently set on mink rafts and baited with mink gland scent. The traps are in wooden tunnels that the entrance should be way too small for the Marten to get in, he is a big fellow:

That's a 10" wide plank he's on.

Invincible

I know of clubs that have had all their poults massacred, if there are any overhanging branches or an absence of electric fence, the pinemartin will get in. If re-location is an option!

daithi55

there classed as vermin in most european countries and are shot on sight
some dopes in ireland decided to protect them for some reason
and spread a rumour they dont kill foul

Invincible

daithi55 wrote: »

there classed as vermin in most european countries and are shot on sight
some dopes in ireland decided to protect them for some reason
and spread a rumour they dont kill foul

They're protected in Europe, Ireland are only following orders,we gave them too much power in past treaty's. If found in possession of a deceased specimen, a fine of €5000 is possible!

Cass

Lads.

This has been said before but let me be 100% clear.

They are highly protected in Ireland and Europe. It, as said above, is an EU directive hence the reason Ireland protects them so vigorously. So they are not classed as vermin.

Secondly any trapping of them even for the purposes of moving them is an offence. Even trapping them by accident while targeting Mink is an offence.

With that in mind there will be no more talk of trapping them, how to trap them, re-locating them, and most definitely no talk of anything more severe.

You are free to discuss whether they may cause harm based on your experience (if any), but that is it.

Half-cocked

I've got a good electric fence around the pen, 2 strands of wire 3" and 10" off the ground, hope that does the trick. It's kept mink out in the past.

Half-cocked

Invincible wrote: »

I know of clubs that have had all their poults massacred, if there are any overhanging branches or an absence of electric fence, the pinemartin will get in. If re-location is an option!

Are they positive it was a marten, not mink?

TriggerPL

Half-cocked wrote: »

Thanks for the info, that's a relief to hear. I have fenn traps permanently set on mink rafts and baited with mink gland scent. The traps are in wooden tunnels that the entrance should be way too small for the Marten to get in, he is a big fellow:

That's a 10" wide plank he's on.

Haha do not under estimate this animal , we opened the door to our partridge shed to the amazement that 80 partridge were gone no sign ( this shed is a sealed old cattle buyer with the concrete dividers)

On closer inspection behind one of the walls was a stock pile of partridge all 80 dead dragged to the corner and stacked!

There use to be a square cut out of the door and this was covered in chicken wire when we were making it secure , pinemartin scales the door and made a small hole in the wire and got in .

Set a trail cam up and it was a pinemartin .

Done take them for being fools !

TriggerPL

Trail cam !! If a mod could put this pic up on my post ! Notice he had the bin lid opened ! The video won't up load

Invincible

Half-cocked wrote: »

Are they positive it was a marten, not mink?

Yes, one of the clubs had trailcams up and the other saw him after the kill.

TriggerPL

alalkovitch wrote: »

Jesus Cass, are you God, what happened to free speech...I don't advocate trapping, hunting or moving them but if somebody wants to discuss something...

The trapping of these animals is ilegal and the moving also there for due to forum rules can not be discussed , if you not happy with that then find a different forum ! Plane and simple !

And yes cass is god !

The Aussie

alalkovitch wrote: »

Jesus Cass, are you God, what happened to free speech...I don't advocate trapping, hunting or moving them but if somebody wants to discuss something...

I think he is (a) saving people from themselves, if you don't think this forum is monitored than god help you (and no Cass is not God, God would not change his name ). And (b) saving the Sport of Hunting being given another stick in which to get beaten with by those involved in it.










Also, there is no free Speech on Boards.ie, it is Privately Owned :pac:

Cass

It has already been covered above by those with common sense but allow me to elaborate.

First and foremost. There is no free speech on Boards. Boards.ie is a privately owned, and run site that must stay within the confines of Irish law. That's what the mods do. Make sure no one says thing they shouldn't. If we allowed free speech we would be shut down within a week.

Secondly if you have a problem with my decision by all means contact me via PM. Posting on thread will get your post deleted, and an infraction/ban. I'm always willing to listen to a reasoned argument via PM, but not a table banging episode on thread.

Lastly bragging about/discussing people doing things that are illegal will also get you an infraction or ban. Also if contacted by the authorities regarding illegal content that is posted here, Boards.ie will co-operate fully with any investigation or request for information.

Here endeth the lesson. Back on topic please.

deerhunter1

alsace royal wrote: »

martens should be no bother to you iv had hens about 20 years now never had one taking by the marten, mind you i only keep between 6 and 10 just for eggs not your kinda numbers, the biggest prob iv had is they keep going into my mink traps and getting caught. if you tought they were going to be a prob you could trap him and release him off a safe distance from your spot, they seem to go mad for herring in oil if you want to try but unless they bother you id let them rock on doing their own thing, but that just me

you must be kidding they will kill everything in a pen,seen 40-50 birds wiped out in two nights by them:eek:

4200fps

A woman not far from me seen one wipe out all her chickens and ducks in minutes. They kill for fun. She said the pine martin bit their necks and ate none of them, she seen it bite their necks and took 3 or 4 swallows then runs to next bird to do the same. They bite and suck the blood from them till theres no pulse left. In my opinion they are a pest in some areas but they are ''highly protected''. They would kill red squirrels if they had the chance but the red is more successful at jumping from branch to branch compared to the grey squirrel making the hunt more difficult for them.
The red squirrel can stay on much lighter branch tips as it is half a kilogram lighter in weight than the Grey making it more difficult for the pine martin to catch so I wouldn't say he doesn't like culling the Reds. If he can he will. Also the bull pine martin is supposed to be more viscous than the female.

Half-cocked

I'm convinced a lot of these pine marten massacre stories are actually mink, its easy to confuse them. I'm not saying the marten won't kill poults, but biting the neck and moving on to the next target is mink behaviour, we had one do that exact thing to 30 poults last year before we trapped it and confirmed it was definitely a large mink. Mink do that because in their natural sub-Arctic habitat they need to hoard food to survive the Winter freeze, so kill as much as they can when they can. The instinct is still there in the Irish mink even though they don't need to. I'll wait and see how things develop with our marten, for now I will enhance the electric fence with a few extra strands of wire.

dodderangler

I agree. I would think the bite to the neck and moving into next victim is traits of mink.
Pine marten numbers are rising slowly but seeing them about is quite rare. Mink are alot more numerous so I'd think it was more mink than pine.
Besides the pine marten is doing the job on the grey squirrel.

Half-cocked

dodderangler wrote: »

I agree. I would think the bite to the neck and moving into next victim is traits of mink.
Pine marten numbers are rising slowly but seeing them about is quite rare. Mink are alot more numerous so I'd think it was more mink than pine.
Besides the pine marten is doing the job on the grey squirrel.

I've had awful trouble with grey squirrels gnawing into my feeders previous years. This year they have all disappeared and we catch our first pine marten on trail cam! Not a coincidence I'm sure. If I lose a few poults to the marten, he's earned them:)

I was very relieved not to catch any mink on the cam. We've trapped a few previous years and last year as well as losing 30 poults to one, our neighbour had his ducks all killed. Now there are otters back in the area and the mink have gone. Another example of the aliens being seen off by a native species?

Regarding martens killings grey squirrels and not reds, apparently it is because the grey spends a lot more time on the ground where it is an easier target, not just that the red is more agile up in the trees.

steddyeddy

daithi55 wrote: »

there classed as vermin in most european countries and are shot on sight
some dopes in ireland decided to protect them for some reason
and spread a rumour they dont kill foul

Vermin isnt a scientific term and your post is extemely irresponsible.

Birdnuts

Rogue PM's can occasionally cause problems in and around poultry/pheasant pens. However a good belt of an electric fence nearly allways does the trick. My few acres in North Mayo is in an area with a large pop of PM's. A neighbour there had a few fowl taken by a PM some years back, but since she installed the electric fence she hasn't had any problems. As others have mentioned removing overhanging branches will also help secure poults in a pen.

Capercaille

4200fps wrote: »

she seen it bite their necks and took 3 or 4 swallows then runs to next bird to do the same. They bite and suck the blood from them till theres no pulse left.

The first sentence directly contradicts the second one!

Half-cocked

Birdnuts wrote: »

However a good belt of an electric fence nearly allways does the trick.

He'll get that alright. I zapped myself by accident while checking it the other day and it was some belt. I'd hate to have had a wet nose touch the wire and four bare feet acting as earth points:eek:

dodderangler

Capercaille wrote: »

The first sentence directly contradicts the second one!

I think its a chupacabra he's seeing around

TriggerPL

From this thread and from previous threads pine martins seem to be a more establish animal on my side of the Shannon , I don't go a week with out seeing one on the road dead or crossing roads , I could bring any guy lamping and we would come across them sitting mid ways up a tree, I even had the lamp on one that was feeding on road kill in middle of the road .

And mayb due to the fact that grey squirrel isn't established ere this side of Shannon either is the reason we get more attacks on poults .

As for the stock piling and killing in numbers , from what I've read in articles is that pine martins had there numbers boosted buy number from Canada ,
Which give them that same mind set of stock piling for Baltic condition and the reason were seeing it here .

Eddie B

Pine Martens can do as much damage as any mink or stoat if it gets into a pheasant pen, theres no question on that! Also numbers are increasing in recent years and therefore reports of kills due to Pine Martens are increasing also! In my opinion the only real way to prevent these kills are to construct our pens properly! I've heard many a lad say that a Mink or Pine Marten will find its way in eventually! This simply isn't true if pens are built properly and more importantly, maintained and checked regularly for holes and damage. Believe me, its so worth the extra effort in the long run.

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

From this thread and from previous threads pine martins seem to be a more establish animal on my side of the Shannon , I don't go a week with out seeing one on the road dead or crossing roads , I could bring any guy lamping and we would come across them sitting mid ways up a tree, I even had the lamp on one that was feeding on road kill in middle of the road .

And mayb due to the fact that grey squirrel isn't established ere this side of Shannon either is the reason we get more attacks on poults .

As for the stock piling and killing in numbers , from what I've read in articles is that pine martins had there numbers boosted buy number from Canada ,
Which give them that same mind set of stock piling for Baltic condition and the reason were seeing it here .

AFAIK most mammalian predators like foxes, stoats etc. will stockpile if given the chance. So PM's are probably no different in an Irish context. As for bringing them from Canada, if that happened, I doubt is was done by any licenced/official body since the species was already here and so was a needless act that might threaten the native genepool of Irish Pine Martins.

Capercaille

Birdnuts wrote: »

AFAIK most mammalian predators like foxes, stoats etc. will stockpile if given the chance. As for bringing them from Canada, if that happened, I doubt is was done by any licenced/official body since the species was already here and so was a needless act that might threaten the native genepool of Irish Pine Martins.

The American mink is a different species to European mink so I sincerely doubt any Conservationists/NPWS would introduce this alien species.

Half-cocked

The American Marten is quite different, smaller for a start. If it's been introduced here (and there doesn't seem to be any evidence it has) it may or may not hybridize with the native Pine Marten. Why would anyone introduce it? Didn't we learn a hard lesson from the mink introduction?

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

AFAIK most mammalian predators like foxes, stoats etc. will stockpile if given the chance. As for bringing them from Canada, if that happened, I doubt is was done by any licenced/official body since the species was already here and so was a needless act that might threaten the native genepool of Irish Pine Martins.

From what I read at the time it was an introduction buy coilte, or some other organising planting trees to tackle the grays !

Now like everything this article was in a shooting magazine and could have been someone's opinion or view and how true or untrue it is , is unknown !

But there is never smoke with out fire !

And I personally think the reason we have a huge increase in pinemartin is because of the huge increase in forestry!

PLAIN and simple !

TriggerPL

Half-cocked wrote: »

The American Marten is quite different, smaller for a start. If it's been introduced here (and there doesn't seem to be any evidence it has) it may or may not hybridize with the native Pine Marten. Why would anyone introduce it? Didn't we learn a hard lesson from the mink introduction?

And to ans ur question do the Irish people learn anything ever !

Prime example is the country going to **** it's self !

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

From what I read at the time it was an introduction buy coilte, or some other organising planting trees to tackle the grays !

Now like everything this article was in a shooting magazine and could have been someone's opinion or view and how true or untrue it is , is unknown !

But there is never smoke with out fire !

And I personally think the reason we have a huge increase in pinemartin is because of the huge increase in forestry!

PLAIN and simple !

No doubt that the increase in forestry helped the PM, as it has the likes of deer etc. However I would be a bit wary about what I read in certain shooting mags about such matters, some have a habitat of quoting random stuff from the internet as if its hard facts. I guess the only way to clear this issue up is to put in an FOI request to Coillte.

TriggerPL

Birdnuts wrote: »

However I would be a bit wary about what I read in certain shooting mags about such matters, some have a habitat of quoting random stuff from the internet as if its hard facts. .

Haha no to unlike on this forum , like every thing it good to get different views on things !

I've noticed this forum has got a lot more user friendly and arguments don't occurred as much anymore in threads

Long may it continue

Birdnuts

TriggerPL wrote: »

Haha no to unlike on this forum , like every thing it good to get different views on things !

I've noticed this forum has got a lot more user friendly and arguments don't occurred as much anymore in threads

Long may it continue

Indeed - I always try to have an open mind on whatever topic is being discussed. I'm always open to be convinced either way. The most important thing for me is hard scientific evidence. Over the years I've changed my mind on a wide range of subjects based on the above principle.

4200fps

dodderangler wrote: »

I agree. I would think the bite to the neck and moving into next victim is traits of mink.
Pine marten numbers are rising slowly but seeing them about is quite rare. Mink are alot more numerous so I'd think it was more mink than pine.
Besides the pine marten is doing the job on the grey squirrel.

Pinemartin for sure. Brown with a yellow belly she said and she lives beside forestry. Just cause a mink would do the same doesn't mean a pinemartin doesn't. How do they kill grey squirrels?

DEMOLISHER

you wouldn't no the difference between them it was a mink

4200fps

DEMOLISHER wrote: »

you wouldn't no the difference between them it was a mink

Your right they don't have any difference in color :rolleyes: Typical anti who wouldn't hear a bad word said about martin lol

TriggerPL

4200fps wrote: »

Pinemartin for sure. Brown with a yellow belly she said and she lives beside forestry. Just cause a mink would do the same doesn't mean a pinemartin doesn't. How do they kill grey squirrels?

No silly they use there nuts to attract them in and then attack ! Everyone know this !

.223forme

pine marten's are well adapted killing machines,,personally think it's b.s that they're fully protected! Should be like the fox whereby you're allowed to control them if they are reeking havok in an area there's going to be a serious problem in this country if and when their population spreads nationwide god knows all groud nesting birds and many songbird species are already in grave danger of extinction as it is without the addition of another 'untouchable ' serious predator to decimate their stocks further like the sparrowhawk, cat, buzzard ,badger etc.,, thats on top of the inevitable future increase in habitat loss which very much opens a window for predation...biodiversity in ireland is f###ed the people at the top need to get their heads out of their arses and start seeing the signs before it's too late! As i've said time and time again ,,we dont have a top order predator in ireland to help thin out such predators numbers unlike north america ,scandanavia etc. i.e coyotes,wolves, golden eagle hence allowing such predators free reign in our countryside ,,risks to pheasant/poultry is only one side to this arguement we need to look at the effects this ever increasing predator population is inflicting on our more vulnerable wildlife! Whats happened to most of our partridge, lapwing, plover, curlews, finches etc. in recent years? and dont lecture me on habitat loss alone because we all know this is not the only factor.... #rantover

Birdnuts

.223forme wrote: »

pine marten's are well adapted killing machines,,personally think it's b.s that they're fully protected! Should be like the fox whereby you're allowed to control them if they are reeking havok in an area there's going to be a serious problem in this country if and when their population spreads nationwide god knows all groud nesting birds and many songbird species are already in grave danger of extinction as it is without the addition of another 'untouchable ' serious predator to decimate their stocks further like the sparrowhawk, cat, buzzard ,badger etc.,, thats on top of the inevitable future increase in habitat loss which very much opens a window for predation...biodiversity in ireland is f###ed the people at the top need to get their heads out of their arses and start seeing the signs before it's too late! As i've said time and time again ,,we dont have a top order predator in ireland to help thin out such predators numbers unlike north america ,scandanavia etc. i.e coyotes,wolves, golden eagle hence allowing such predators free reign in our countryside ,,risks to pheasant/poultry is only one side to this arguement we need to look at the effects this ever increasing predator population is inflicting on our more vulnerable wildlife! Whats happened to most of our partridge, lapwing, plover, curlews, finches etc. in recent years? and dont lecture me on habitat loss alone because we all know this is not the only factor.... #rantover

Conservation has to be based on scientific research and hard facts. Not rants that distract from the real issues. Following your logic we should be culling the likes of Red Squirrels, Woodpeckers, Cuckoos etc. since they are occasional predators of nestlings/eggs etc. Commonsense and a modern understanding of how nature actually works tells us that such an approach has no logic and would be highly destructive of the recent advances in the conseravation of certain species as well as totally failing to address the problems other species face.

EG. The vast majority of buzzards live prey is vermin like rats, magpies and crows. http://duhallow.blogspot.ie/p/buzzards-in-duhallow.html. Similar studies in the UK back this up.

Based on these studies the return of native raptors like buzzards can only be of benefit to the likes of songbirds and ground nesting species. Buzzards only returned to this country in the late 1990's, many years after Partridges disappeared and the main declines in Curlew and Plovers.


The main predators of ground nesting birds are the likes of foxes,crows and mink which has been proven by the success of the Boora project in which not alone a healthy wild population of partridges have been estaiblished by legal vermin control and habitat work, but also the return of breeding Lapwings and Curlew to the area. I have seen similiar results thanx to the good work of the Blessington Game Conservancy with the likes of Lapwing and Curlew now breeding in wetlands and quarries around the lake. Both these areas have a healthy buzzard population which proves my first point.

As for Sparrowhawks, they do take the odd songbird but there again there is no evidence that this native bird which only has a few thousand pairs in the whole country is a factor in any declines. Indeed many songbirds populations are on the increase in this country including the likes of Goldfinches, Linnets, Siskins etc.. Check out the latest UK and Ireland Breeding Bird Atlas if you don't beleive me.



Feral cats are a totally different kettle of fish as they are a non-native invasive predator on a par with mink to which native wildlife are not adapted.


If your that concerned about native wildlife you should be more concerned by the activities of the likes of Teagasc and the Dept of Agriculture which for decades now have encouraged farmers to destroy vast amounts of bird rich habitats like scrub, wetlands and wildflower meadows. Not to mention the millions of litres of pesticides used on farmland every year which has hit the populations of not just birds but everything from butterflies to bees. That is not me farmer bashing btw(I farm part time myself)....I'm simply pointing out the damage the likes of the CAP policies has done to wildlife in this country.