Abortion Discussion

Brian Shanahan

lazygal wrote: »

Time for Seanad Bingo.

Key terms will be:
Showing the value of the upper house (5.7 million)
Abortion is never a treatment for suicide (x1.5 million from Fidelma Healy Eames alone)
Evidence based medicine
Valuing the both lives
Slippery slope
Floodgates


Feel free to add.

I wonder if anybody comes on with the "congratulations, you've just aborted Beethoven" logical fallacy?

Doctor Strange

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I wonder if anybody comes on with the "congratulations, you've just aborted Beethoven" logical fallacy?

FFer came close today. Serious appeals to emotion going on.

robindch

FG Senator claims anti-abortion campaign are attempting to trade votes against the abortion bill for votes in favour of keeping the Seanad:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/fg-senator-claims-anti-abortion-campaign-trying-to-trade-votes-1.1464675

Irish Times wrote:

Anti-abortion campaigners are offering to vote against the Seanad’s abolition if Senators oppose the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill, Fine Gael Senator Imelda Henry has said. “I am quite disturbed by the way the Pro-Life Campaign has behaved, particularly in the past two days,’’ she said. “They have been asking Senators not to support this Bill in return for voting to save the Seanad.’’

Ms Henry said that as a woman and mother she supported the legislation dealing with the X case. “I know personally it is not always possible to save both mother and baby, and I believe we must protect our doctors in the rare event that the mother’s life is at risk and a termination is required.” Ms Henry, who was speaking during the Seanad debate on the Bill which began yesterday, said the language of suspicion surrounding suicidal ideation in pregnant women was doing a disservice to women. “It shames vulnerable women.’’

Ned O’Sullivan (FF) said he would support the Bill, adding that he had what was known in the Catholic Church as an informed conscience. “I say that because there seems to be a suggestion that possession of a conscience is the sole preserve of those who are opposed to the Bill,’’ he added. “Conscience is an individual thing and it is up to each adult person to do what he perceives is right.’’

Mr O’Sullivan said that while politicians knew about pressure, it became bullying when it was systematically targeted. He added that he was hitting back now at some of the activities he had witnessed and experienced in the anti-Bill campaign. Some groups campaigning against the Bill had spent inordinate amounts of money getting their message across to TDs and Senators, with some reputed to receive their funding from fundamentalist organisations. Some were secret and located in Ireland and abroad, especially in America, he said. “I think it is time that these organisations should come out of the closet and declare what they are spending in propagating their extreme fundamentalist views,’’ he added. “And they should also have to account for the source of this funding, just as we elected representatives are required to do.’’

Mr O’Sullivan said some statements by the Catholic Church during the debate had also come close to bullying. “And as a Catholic I regret to have to say that.’’ He added that it was former taoiseach Jack Lynch who had proposed the removal of article 44 of the Constitution giving special recognition to the position of the Catholic Church. “Some of our eminent churchmen do not seem to have got that message yet, because they are certainly not taking any cognisance of it.’’

Mr O’Sullivan said that veiled threats of excommunication and the like were ‘’redolent of a different Ireland which we have moved on from and to which we have no intention of returning’’. He added that “this is a Republic and there are clear lines of demarcation between church and State’’. He believed people had no wish to revert to the days when the infamous belt of a crozier put politicians in their place.

“If I had as clear a conscience about the rest of my life as I have about supporting this Bill, then I would be in very good terms with myself when I go to meet my maker.’’ Labhras Ó Murchú (FF) said they had to keep reminding themselves, even though certain comments had been made about the church and religion and people being sanctimonious, that they were talking about the right to life. “We have learned, and it is acknowledged widely, that Ireland has the safest medical environment for an expectant mother and that treatment is not withheld when the life of the mother is in danger.”

aloyisious

robindch wrote: »

FG Senator claims anti-abortion campaign are attempting to trade votes against the abortion bill for votes in favour of keeping the Seanad:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/fg-senator-claims-anti-abortion-campaign-trying-to-trade-votes-1.1464675

Ha, good old Leabhras, see/hear/speak no evil :rolleyes:

It's a pity that the FG Senator uses everyday terms such as "come out of the closet" in reference to some groups, I mean they have to be given some respect: think of how they'd feel being likened to the "intrinsically-disordered"

shruikan2553

Who needs democracy when you have bribery. Seems like they have worked out that they have lost. About time too, now they can move on to gay marriage so we can shut them up with that too.

joseph brand

maguic24 wrote: »

You're telling me!!! Abortion is evil but it's perfectly okay for priests to rape little children....the ****? Also they are completely against gay marriage yet how many scandals in the Catholic Church involved priests and little boys??!! Sodomy is bad except if its with children. Disgusting, what sort of a god condones child molestation and rape??? :mad:

One that doesn't exist?

Delirium

Warning: Linked article contains image of smiling Ronan Mullen :eek::pac:

Doctors may use abortion over early delivery to avoid liability if baby disabled, Seanad told

The Government’s abortion legislation may incentivise a doctor to provide an abortion instead of an early inducement to avoid liability where a baby is born with a disability, the Seanad has heard.

......

Mr Mullen said the reasonable opinion required imposes no duty to ensure that where practicable a viable child should be delivered rather than aborted. He said: “It may in fact incentivise a medical practitioner to opt for an abortion instead of an early inducement so as to avoid questions of civil liability on foot of the disablement of a child.”

Mullen thinks that doctors will terminate a viable foetus to avoid liability where it is born with a disability.

Does he not think they will be liable for the termination of the foetus with no valid medical reason? It has to be something the medical ethics board would take punitive action on should such a termination occur.

He is attempting to scare every pregnant women who is carrying a foetus that will be born disabled. He is damaging the doctor-patient relationship by making such wild accusations.

bumper234

Is there anyway we could get a side vote on having these numpties voice boxes removed:mad:

lazygal

bumper234 wrote: »

Is there anyway we could get a side vote on having these numpties voice boxes removed:mad:

There'll be a referendum in the Autumn!

Sarky

Mullen, <folks> like you will see the Seanad abolished instead of reformed.

robindch

On the difficulties of counting crowds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23312656

Prof Paul Yip from the University of Hong Kong wrote:

Counting crowds has become so much more about public relations and point-scoring than a quest for the truth.

maguic24

joseph brand wrote: »

One that doesn't exist?

God does exist, the bible says so...BOOM!

bumper234

maguic24 wrote: »

God does exist, the bible says so...BOOM!

So does Dumbledore ya muggle

maguic24

bumper234 wrote: »

So does Dumbledore ya muggle

Don't forget about Gandalf! :P

bumper234

maguic24 wrote: »

Don't forget about Gandalf! :P

Either one is a better story, Can just imagine some kid in 2000 years finding an old dog eared copy of lord of the rings and it becoming a religion.:D

maguic24

bumper234 wrote: »

Either one is a better story, Can just imagine some kid in 2000 years finding an old dog eared copy of lord of the rings and it becoming a religion.:D

It would be a better a religion than half the religions that are around today!

TheChizler

robindch wrote: »

FG Senator claims anti-abortion campaign are attempting to trade votes against the abortion bill for votes in favour of keeping the Seanad:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/fg-senator-claims-anti-abortion-campaign-trying-to-trade-votes-1.1464675

"We'll let you keep your advisory and revisory role if you don't advise or revise"...

Turtwig

The Journal.ie, Nick Beard. wrote:

I WASN’T AT the Dail last Wednesday night. I wasn’t there on Thursday night either. And though I was heartened to see the protesters in front of the Dail, reminding TDs about the women they are representing, my reality couldn’t have felt farther away from the Dail.
That Wednesday was my first day of the week as an Abortion Support Network phone volunteer – meaning that for the next week, I would be answering calls from women who were seeking practical information and financial support about accessing an abortion in England.

From calm to incoherent – callers display a range of emotions
My first call on Wednesday was from a woman who was frantic because her abusive partner had stolen her passport. “He’s told me he’ll kill me if I have an abortion,” she told me. In all the Dail debates, I never once heard discussion about the real and substantial risk to life a pregnant woman might face from a partner. As a result, I walked the woman through the process of flying without a passport. She cried with relief when we told her we’d be able to give her a small grant towards the price of her procedure.

. . .

Full article here.

aloyisious

Mullen probably think's that morality and ethics are gifts from his church, not applicable to outsiders. He probably believe's that Ireland is alive with heathens and unbelievers. As for Dumbledore and Gandalf, don't knock them: the Bible say's the Magi visited Mary and Christ

shruikan2553

Jernal wrote: »

Full article here.

So thats what people with a conscience do.

lazygal

I'm in tears reading that piece (damn pregnancy hormones!). I donate to the ASN, time for another donation I think.

https://www.abortionsupport.org.uk/

The Black Oil

I've become a bit tired of hearing the word conscience in this debate. Why is it framed in such a way that somehow a politician voting with their moral or religious conscience means they therefore have more credibility in going against something? If certain people voted with their political conscience the country might be in a better state.

aloyisious

Galvasean wrote: »

Seems to be what they're into. This forum seem quite keen to find out names and work addresses of pro-choice activists.
I would advise anybody who was demonstrating on behalf of the pro-choice campaign to have a look at the pictures in that thread to see if they are there. Might be a good idea to keep your wits about you if you do.

Read & lifted this from another site: quote; Ha! After this site (reference to Nationalist Ireland) threatened they were going to contact the employers of pro life people a few got together and had a snoop, then turned the cards on the owner. He’s from West Limerick, runs a PC repair shop, has already been investigated by the guards: unquote.

It'd be nice if the site owner's I/d could be published, all in the interest of public safety, of course

Mardy Bum

The Black Oil wrote: »

I've become a bit tired of hearing the word conscience in this debate. Why is it framed in such a way that somehow a politician voting with their moral or religious conscience means they therefore have more credibility in going against something? If certain people voted with their political conscience the country might be in a better state.

It has been mentioned so much I have been waiting to see an article about the use of this word as justification for anything and its universal acceptance of said view; even a few column inches actually analysing the use of it rather than just unflinching acceptance.

Brian Shanahan

Sarky wrote: »

Mullen, <folks> like you will see the Seanad abolished instead of reformed.

<Snip>

Doctor Strange

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

<Snip>

<Snip>

Hotblack Desiato

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I've no problem with this function on the grounds of discommoding snake oil salesmen. For example if we followed the NHS example we'd be publicly funding homeopathy (and the NHS did it simply because they got sick of Brian pestering them).

Homeopathy has got nothing to do with herbal remedies, herbal remedies actually have ingredients in them :rolleyes:
It's ludicrous that several remedies which are regarded as safe and effective in other EU countries are banned here.
It's also ludicrous that so many pharmaceuticals which are OTC in other EU countries are prescription-only here. This all adds greatly to the costs the consumer and taxpayer has to bear.

joseph brand

The Black Oil wrote: »

I've become a bit tired of hearing the word conscience in this debate. Why is it framed in such a way that somehow a politician voting with their moral or religious conscience means they therefore have more credibility in going against something? If certain people voted with their political conscience the country might be in a better state.

Don't forget 'soul searching'. And yes, these words have been uttered numerous times by a few politicians. They're only short of putting their hands together and dropping to their knees.

Sulla Felix

bumper234 wrote: »

Either one is a better story, Can just imagine some kid in 2000 years finding an old dog eared copy of lord of the rings and it becoming a religion.:D

Ainulindalë > Genesis all day, every day.

Mardy Bum

Didn't know the High Court still blocked women from travelling?