B&I Lions v Wallabies, Test 2 Match Thread, Sat June 29, 1105am

LorMal

Gambas wrote: »

Makes a change from the green blind bias here, but you've over-egged it.

SOB depends on Warbarton's fitness but should be on the bench at least. BOD and Roberts makes more sense than any other partnership. Bowe did all that was asked of him and should stay ahead of Cuthbert. I'm unconvinced by Murray too and think Phillips should come back in. Sexton has been unremarkable overall, but that's the game plan and is still well clear of Farrell, particularly when Halfpenny is in.

Yes I think thats a reasonable assessment

jimmybeige

pickarooney wrote: »

I wouldn't back them in a relay race against any of the top three sides.

Yea I think we overrate that back three a bit. Good players, no doubt, and Halfpenny is very good and solid player with great kicking stats, but creatively, he wouldn't create chances the way players like Beale or Dagg would. By far the best option available to us though.

.ak

Halfpenny is an extremely dangerous runner. If anything, I'd say he's more like the Oz back three than anyone else. Unfortunately he's not being used in attack at all, which is a shame.

Buer

Having watched the match again, Hibbard has to start for the scrums. His first scrum on, with AJ and MV, the change is massive. The scrum drives through on Aussie put in, they splinter and just manage to clear it away when a penalty is looking likely. Next scrum, DC is at tighthead and they completely drive through on their own ball, winning the penalty. Third set, on their own ball and they drive through them again but referee calls a reset. On reset they lose hit but comfortably retain ball and SOB picks off base. The difference in the scrums he made fairly instantly was huge. His bulk and power is completely unbalancing the Australian front row.

Buer

Also, having just rewatched the line out that was turned over, it wasn't nearly as bad as I recall. The ball was not called to the tail at all. It was to Parling as a middle jumper. Mowen put pressure on but not enough to prevent them winning the ball; he was well up in the air ahead of him.

Parling was quick off the ground and well into the air but I don't think the lift was particularly good. Vunipola and AWJ seemed to grip him quite high up and we never going to get maximum height on him; Vunipola was dead on his feet at that point. The throw was possibly a fraction high but not massively as Parling was able to get a unimpeded hand on the ball but he was hoping to get both hands on it. SOB was in the scrum half position and was going in to rip so they were clearly going for the catch and drive.

Call was right. Execution was wrong.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Having watched the match again, Hibbard has to start for the scrums. His first scrum on, with AJ and MV, the change is massive. The scrum drives through on Aussie put in, they splinter and just manage to clear it away when a penalty is looking likely. Next scrum, DC is at tighthead and they completely drive through on their own ball, winning the penalty. Third set, on their own ball and they drive through them again but referee calls a reset. On reset they lose hit but comfortably retain ball and SOB picks off base. The difference in the scrums he made fairly instantly was huge. His bulk and power is completely unbalancing the Australian front row.

I agree. His scrummaging is clearly excellent.

The Lions should completely simplify at lineout time and focus on scrummaging. Youngs can be used for impact.

Pudsy33

Surprised people are saying BOD has played badly. He was the second highest tackler, with none missed, on Saturday. He is victim of the system that is being used. None of the other centres have anything close to the guile and craft he possesses. If you think the Lions were one dimensional with Davies/BOD, I really dont see how you can think Roberts/Davies will be any better.

Buer

Whilst he was strong defensively, BOD needs to take responsibility for some glaring errors in attack. He threw one ugly intercept on the narrow side and, most damaging, he kicked possession away terribly from inside his own half which led directly to the siege that culminated in the try. He had scrum advantage with a pack that was chewing up the opposition scrum at that point and aimlessly booted it to their back three. In fairness, he held his hand up in the post-match interview but he needed to. It was a really bad error. If he had just taken the scrum, I think we'd be having a very different conversation today.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Vunipola was dead on his feet at that point.

This has been brushed over a bit, Grant is a fine player available on the bench, and although Gatland was prepared to sub both Youngs and Jones he left Vunipola on? Don't understand that

SlickRic

keeping Vunipola on was idiotic.

there was simply so excuse.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

This has been brushed over a bit, Grant is a fine player available on the bench, and although Gatland was prepared to sub both Youngs and Jones he left Vunipola on? Don't understand that

Indeed. As Dean Ryan said in his article, he couldn't fathom the bloke being on the field. MV has never played 80 minutes of international rugby in his life (has has one start previously which lasted 57 minutes). What's more, he has only, as far as I'm aware, played 80 minutes twice in his professional career both in lower level AP games.

The guy is not conditioned for 80 minutes of rugby. He didn't let the side down in terms of his work and should be commended for it but, in that last 5 minutes, he had nothing left in the tank.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Buer wrote: »

Indeed. As Dean Ryan said in his article, he couldn't fathom the bloke being on the field. MV has never played 80 minutes of international rugby in his life (has has one start previously which lasted 57 minutes). What's more, he has only, as far as I'm aware, played 80 minutes twice in his professional career both in lower level AP games.

The guy is not conditioned for 80 minutes of rugby. He didn't let the side down in terms of his work and should be commended for it but, in that last 5 minutes, he had nothing left in the tank.

Add to that Parling and AWJ who were also both wrecked because Croft was the reserve lock and you've got three forwards running on empty

bilston

Buer wrote: »

Whilst he was strong defensively, BOD needs to take responsibility for some glaring errors in attack. He threw one ugly intercept on the narrow side and, most damaging, he kicked possession away terribly from inside his own half which led directly to the siege that culminated in the try. He had scrum advantage with a pack that was chewing up the opposition scrum at that point and aimlessly booted it to their back three. In fairness, he held his hand up in the post-match interview but he needed to. It was a really bad error. If he had just taken the scrum, I think we'd be having a very different conversation today.

While they were both almost panicky moments do you not think the intercept pass was a result of the fact that we had two 13s in the midfield? BOD was drifting across looking for someone to pick a short line off but instead Davies went for the outside arc. In the end BOD should have held onto it but my point is with a proper 12 the problem would never have arisen.

The kick was pretty poor mind.

bilston

SlickRic wrote: »

keeping Vunipola on was idiotic.

there was simply so excuse.

Well to be fair after the first 25 mins the Lions started winning penalties and getting a shove at scrum time so there was some logic in keeping him on. Still let's hope Corbs is ok for Saturday, sounds like he will be.

Buer

bilston wrote: »

While they were both almost panicky moments do you not think the intercept pass was a result of the fact that we had two 13s in the midfield? BOD was drifting across looking for someone to pick a short line off but instead Davies went for the outside arc. In the end BOD should have held onto it but my point is with a proper 12 the problem would never have arisen.

The kick was pretty poor mind.

Quite possibly, he was looking for someone to run the line back against the angle by the looks of it. But when it didn't come, it was very poor judgement just to flop it anyway directly to an opposition attacker.

I would agree though, the midfield has not clicked at all. JD has to go. People might say he hasn't played 12 in some time (he has loads of experience there though) but he was defending at 13 for the try and was badly caught out. You could see Bowe whip around and look accusingly at whoever had missed his man and you couldn't blame him. It was standard defence.

The loose kick came after JD failed to take a pass too. Hasn't been playing well, Roberts is back, so long JD.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

In fact just watching the build up the Australian try and Mako is barely able to stand, and the crucial half break from Falou goes right through his channel. He's standing in position but he just doesn't have the energy to make the adjustment to stop Falou , he also lets Genia well over the gainline standing as pillar three phases later

On such small margins are games decided

irishbucsfan

Is Roberts definitely back?

That would be a major boost

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is Roberts definitely back?

That would be a major boost

Jesus I hope so. The medical team always had the third test in mind, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary?

Buer

If he's not, it has to be MT. A change is desperately needed in that midfield. Not once in the test series have the two boys linked up well.

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

Well to be fair after the first 25 mins the Lions started winning penalties and getting a shove at scrum time so there was some logic in keeping him on. Still let's hope Corbs is ok for Saturday, sounds like he will be.

By that same logic Jones and Youngs would be left on too, in fact as Buer says given how rarely Vunipola has actually gone the distance he would logically have been the last member of that front row you would have wanted to play the whole 80 mins

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

By that same logic Jones and Youngs would be left on too, in fact as Buer says given how rarely Vunipola has actually gone the distance he would logically have been the last member of that front row you would have wanted to play the whole 80 mins

Yeah fair point!

SlickRic

bilston wrote: »

Well to be fair after the first 25 mins the Lions started winning penalties and getting a shove at scrum time so there was some logic in keeping him on.

he never plays 80, and he was bollocks tired.

no logic in keeping him on at all.

.ak

So, a front row of Corbs, Hibbard and Jones should, in theory, be advantage to the Lions. Will be interesting to see how Gatland goes with the selection there. I thought Cole did well, altho I know squat all of what's happening in the scrum, so I presume maybe Hibbard made him look good?

Buer

.ak wrote: »

So, a front row of Corbs, Hibbard and Jones should, in theory, be advantage to the Lions. Will be interesting to see how Gatland goes with the selection there. I thought Cole did well, altho I know squat all of what's happening in the scrum, so I presume maybe Hibbard made him look good?

I think Cole did well. He put some pressure on and was part of the drive but the tide turned when Hibbard came on. Cole just kept up the decent work. He was good around the park though. Was surprised they left Jones on as long as they did but he did well including re-turning over one lost ball at a big point.

bilston

.ak wrote: »

So, a front row of Corbs, Hibbard and Jones should, in theory, be advantage to the Lions. Will be interesting to see how Gatland goes with the selection there. I thought Cole did well, altho I know squat all of what's happening in the scrum, so I presume maybe Hibbard made him look good?

Would you trust Hibbard in the lineout though? Actually I suppose you can't really trust any of the hookers in the lineout.

.ak

bilston wrote: »

Would you trust Hibbard in the lineout though? Actually I suppose you can't really trust any of the hookers in the lineout.

I suppose it comes down to this. What set piece is more important? Scrums for me.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Real pity Rory Best as we know him didn't turn up on tour

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Would you trust Hibbard in the lineout though? Actually I suppose you can't really trust any of the hookers in the lineout.

Exactly. If they're all struggling, I'd go for Hibbard who would have the biggest impact in another area. Youngs is better at scrabbling for yards and makes a lot of tackles but the scrum has been the decisive area in the test series.

Not only did we concede six points directly off the scrum at the weekend, we also were badly driven off our own ball and Australia took one against the head. Australia beating the Lions against the head is embarrassing. That was at an important moment too, just before Hibbard came on.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Hibbard isn't half as good around the park

Buer

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Hibbard isn't half as good around the park

Agreed but if he can make his tackles in the close exchanges, that's all he needs to do. He did that when he came on the other day as well as one shuddering hit on Beale. In fairness, Youngs wasn't anything more than solid around the park either. Made his tackles, didn't really carry.