B&I Lions v Wallabies, Test 2 Match Thread, Sat June 29, 1105am

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

but your completely missing the points that:
1. the lions had THREE good lineout jumpers on the field
2. croft hooved up EVERY front line out the previous week
3. POC called the lion outs the previous week... the locks took 4, the back row took 8.
If you look to last weeks game at 70 mins with the lions 2 points up, croft takes the throw.

I'm not missing any point, Syd. You said that if POC was on the pitch he'd have been a decoy at the back and called it to the front. You don't know that in any way and previous evidence of POC operating in the same situation shows it's not even that likely.

We've no idea at all what would have happened yesterday. There was no scenario last week similar to yesterday when it was do or die and the ball had to be won. Calling it to Croft, 40m from the line when you're in front is not comparable to what took place yesterday.

sydthebeat

i would definitely think that its a lot more comparable to argue that similarities with last weeks line outs than what happen 4 years ago.
whilst the field positions and times may not be similar, the personalities and closeness of the game were very similar.
POC was correct to call front ball, and he was correct to call ball away from himself and awj. The stats proves this.

again hypothetically, id argue that POC is a clever enough footballer to recognize the correct call was to go to the front and croft. The australians would have targeted him completely had he been in that situation, as they proved by the targeting of parling.

Buer

Fair enough, syd, think we will have to agree to disagree! I'd almost want POC to call it on himself as I think, even when challenged in the air, he'd be the safest option.

Can understand your perspective on it though!

irishbucsfan

This is a pointless conversation really. There is no evidence at all to say what POC would have called. There is no evidence to say that if POC had made a call that was any different that Hibbard wouldn't have prescribed it in exactly the same way.

And all that is pointless anyway as POC is injured. He's not missing through the choice of anyone there, we have who we have. The lineout has been a major failing all tour really, the only time it worked was when the Aussies made the mistake of not competing against us last week.

The failings came in how we controlled possession and what we chose to do wit the ball. The half backs were not good enough and we never looked nearly as comfortable in possession as we did the week before. Phillips and Roberts would make a major difference in the side and the team can return to playing to their strengths. The Aussies should never have gotten nearly as much possession as they did, and if the Lions can keep the ball next week they'll win the series.

ed7890

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is a pointless conversation really. There is no evidence at all to say what POC would have called. There is no evidence to say that if POC had made a call that was any different that Hibbard wouldn't have prescribed it in exactly the same way.

And all that is pointless anyway as POC is injured. He's not missing through the choice of anyone there, we have who we have. The lineout has been a major failing all tour really, the only time it worked was when the Aussies made the mistake of not competing against us last week.

The failings came in how we controlled possession and what we chose to do wit the ball. The half backs were not good enough and we never looked nearly as comfortable in possession as we did the week before. Phillips and Roberts would make a major difference in the side and the team can return to playing to their strengths. The Aussies should never have gotten nearly as much possession as they did, and if the Lions can keep the ball next week they'll win the series.

You'd have philips back in the side next week?

irishbucsfan

ed7890 wrote: »

You'd have philips back in the side next week?

I would. Youngs wasn't good enough and were going to need all the experience we can get.

danthefan

You'd think Ireland/Munster have never lost a lineout with POC on.

shuffol

If Hartley was out there I think he'd be the test hooker.

neilmulvey

danthefan wrote: »

You'd think Ireland/Munster have never lost a lineout with POC on.

Its not about that though. The Lions have not won lineout ball once it goes beyond 4th man. In the most important moment of the game (and series) they chose to throw to the back. I am assuming Parling made the call. It was a huge risk.

I think Parling probably hasnt played many games that has had these type of situation, but POC has. Experience of reading the situation has a lot to do with this. Do they try and get 20 metres infield via lineout throw or do they work the hard yards through 4-5-6 phases.

If POC was on the pitch, his record over the last decade or more suggests he would most likely have made the correct call. He has the experience of an entire career to call on in such situations. 10-11 seasons in the 6N and HEC finals etc. When people talk about leadership, thats a prime example of a lack of leadership.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Just watching back throuh the first half, few points.

Lydiate giving away three points for being blatantly off side was an awful bit of ill discipline

The Lions are so horribly conservative in attack. The very first set piece ball they get is on the halfway line, move was obviously called before the lineout and Sexton hoofs up a Garryowen that Beale takes. Can anyone remember the last time Sexton did something similar off the first attacking ball for Leinster? It was so easy to read too. It was 5 Lions backs facing 5 Wallabies on the halfway line, by no means an overlap or anything but they really should have had a crack rather than giving the ball back to Australia


The last three minutes of the half sum up the Lions with ball in hand though, and it really illustrates the point that having a good kick and chase garryowen is no damn good if you don't know what to do with the ball after you get it.

It starts off with another good Sexton kick chased by halfpenny which is claimed by Heaslip after it bounces in the Australian 22, Vunipola crashes it up and off the next Phase Sexton puts in a lovely delayed pass behind decoy runners to find Davies in space with men outside to work with as the Australians struggle to get across in defence. It was probably the only front foot attack opportunity the backs had gotten in the entire first half. What does Davies do? He ****ing grubbers it, and an awful grubber at that. It was the single most terrible piece of attacking play in the entire game. He had 3 players outside of him, two of them, BOD and North, lethal with ball in hand and he decides to ****ing kick it. He could have even tucked the ball under his arm and made it over the gainline comfortably himself, there was absolutely no need to kick the ball

Anyway the Aussies clear it up, go through a few phases and clear the ball. It falls to Halfpenny who puts up a great grubber which North claims very well just outside the Australian 22. The Aussies pile in at the breakdown, and I mean pile trying to win it back. When Ben Youngs picks up the ball to pass it out there are 10 Australian players within 5 feet of that ruck and only Tom Youngs, Mako and North out of action because of it from a Lions perspective.

Youngs gives an awful pass to AWJ, I mean it resembles a prop pass. This kills some of the momentum but not all of it because Jones does well to quickly pop it back to Sexton. Sexton gets the ball in what is essentially a six on three situation (pic of the moment sexton gets the ball attached). Now if Sexton moves this ball at this moment you've got to think the Lions score.

Instead Sexton takes the ball into contact himself, this affords the Wallabies stuck in the previous ruck time to get back into position and when the Lions finally do go wide off the next phase there are numbers in place to hack Heaslip down inside the 22.

A shocking three minutes of play from a Lions perspective, the ad libbed nature of the back play reminds me of Ireland under Kidney

thomond2006

None of the above would have happened....











....if John Hayes was playing

Mr.Applepie

toomevara wrote: »

Yeah, but that kind of is the job description is it not? You can't be the Lions manager, or for that matter a Lion, and whinge about that aspect of the job. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Gatland and his team have had excellent preparation, particularly compared to other tours, especially in the amateur era where they essentially met up as a group in the airport car-park...I would say that the rugby they've produced (certain individual performances and limited purple-patches apart)has been exceptionally poor/one-dimensional and with one game left I still await anything resembling a decent/complete performance.

The Aussies were, if anything, undercooked going into this series. Their error rate has been uncharacteristically high (the reason why we managed to sneak the first test and stay in the second) but you can see that that situation is being rapidly remedied. They seem to have it over us where it matters i.e. the top two inches, while the Lions patently seem to lack the ability to adapt to the challenge the wallabies are putting up. We played some deeply, deeply daft rugby yesterday. Say what you like about Deans (and I'm not his greatest fan) but he has looked at the Lions, analysed the way they're trying to play and put 15 guys on the field who know what they need to do to beat them. Management 101, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of Gatland to do the same...

A couple of decisions are coming back to bite Gatland now:

In pretty much all the warm up games the plan seemed to be all about power runners breaking the gainline. For the 1st two tests they're has been 1 player in the pack that falls under that category - vanupola. Healy and Jenkins were massive losses. The lack of SOB to get go forward ball is baffling.

His decision to bring only one 12 is coming back to bite him also. Davies isn't a 12 & it even looks like BOD is lining up there a fair bit. Without Roberts our backlines moves seem very limited. I suppose that's what happens when you bring a backs coach who for club or country seems to advocate kicking the leather off the ball!

I don't know why all the talk was of the Lions dominating the Aus pack. They come up against NZ/SA & now Argentina every year and come away with their fair share of wins (when not riddled with injuries). They know how to deal with a big pack.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Ok, so second half now.

First time the Lions look to attack is off a a lineout, Warburton wins the ball toward the back and Davies crashes the ball up in midfield, BOD runs a decoy on Davies inside but it's not fooling anyone, the Australian midfield know it's going to Davies.

This move illustrates very well just how afraid the Lions are to play in the wider channels. I've frozen it on the moment before Davies gets the ball, if Sexton does his patented loop with Davies here the Australians are in big trouble. Bowe would commit defenders on the inside and he would have halfpenny and North in space on his outside, but that's too much like expressive rugby for Gatland.



Instead Davies crashes the ball up himself, as usual he makes no attempt to free up his hands for an offload even though he makes it over the gainline. But the move hasn't worried the Australian defense in the slightest. In fact, look how brilliantly set up they are for the next phase:



It's meat and drink for the Aussie defensive line and the play ends up with North being dragged into touch by three Australian defenders

Rightwing

neilmulvey wrote: »

Its not about that though. The Lions have not won lineout ball once it goes beyond 4th man. In the most important moment of the game (and series) they chose to throw to the back. I am assuming Parling made the call. It was a huge risk.

I think Parling probably hasnt played many games that has had these type of situation, but POC has. Experience of reading the situation has a lot to do with this. Do they try and get 20 metres infield via lineout throw or do they work the hard yards through 4-5-6 phases.

If POC was on the pitch, his record over the last decade or more suggests he would most likely have made the correct call. He has the experience of an entire career to call on in such situations. 10-11 seasons in the 6N and HEC finals etc. When people talk about leadership, thats a prime example of a lack of leadership.

That's it summed up perfectly well.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Also, I didn't notice it as much in the pub. But Ben Youngs had an awful game. His passing was absolutely terrible

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Now, the last play of the entire game. Lions have to go for it. The script is thrown out, Sexton is taking the ball flatter than he's been all night, Murray moving the ball quicker and they're going wide and making ground doing so. The Australians can't live with it. It should be the way they go out to play next week, Sexton is a weapon playing at that tempo, but he was restrained to the point of utter frustration for the vast majority of the test

LorMal

Think there is a lot of green tinted viewpoints expressed here. The reason the last line out was not thrown to the front was because Horwill (6 ft 6) took up a position at the front and I think he therefore forced Hibbert to throw long. POC would not have called it differently IMHO.
Other green tinted perspectives -
1. SOB should play - I'm not sure on this - he seems to give away a lot of penalties and can be a bit headless. I assume that is why he has not been a starter so far. Its a risk to play him esp with Aussies kicking their penalties now.
2. Murray is playing a blinder and should start - he has improved a huge amount - but I think he kicks possession away too often
2. BOD is a legend and a leader / inspiration etc - he has played poorly and should be replaced for the last test. (Sadly)
4. Bowe - I thought he looked tentative a couple of times and I am not sure he has really recovered fully from the hand injury.

Sexton probably just about deserves to keep his place ahead of OF. I think they should replace Halfpenny with Hogg (or maybe Kearney) to bring some attacking threat from Full Back (Sexton/Farrell to kick the penalties)
In general this tour has made me rethink the real value of many of the Irish players. We are too quick to call many of our players 'world class' and then wonder why we get our arses kicked by SH teams (and by Eng and France on a regular basis).

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

LorMal wrote: »

Think there is a lot of green tinted viewpoints expressed here. The reason the last line out was not thrown to the front was because Horwill (6 ft 6) took up a position at the front and I think he therefore forced Hibbert to throw long. POC would not have called it differently IMHO.
Other green tinted perspectives -
1. SOB should play - I'm not sure on this - he seems to give away a lot of penalties and can be a bit headless. I assume that is why he has not been a starter so far. Its a risk to play him esp with Aussies kicking their penalties now.
2. Murray is playing a blinder and should start - he has improved a huge amount - but I think he kicks possession away too often
2. BOD is a legend and a leader / inspiration etc - he has played poorly and should be replaced for the last test. (Sadly)
4. Bowe - I thought he looked tentative a couple of times and I am not sure he has really recovered fully from the hand injury.

Sexton probably just about deserves to keep his place ahead of OF. I think they should replace Halfpenny with Hogg (or maybe Kearney) to bring some attacking threat from Full Back (Sexton/Farrell to kick the penalties)
In general this tour has made me rethink the real value of many of the Irish players. We are too quick to call many of our players 'world class' and then wonder why we get our arses kicked by SH teams (and by Eng and France on a regular basis).

No, just no.....

Hogg instead of Halfpenny!?

Not to mention your assessment of the Irish players is horrible harsh, Bowe for example had a great game this weekend all things considered

Kayless

LorMal wrote: »

Think there is a lot of green tinted viewpoints expressed here. The reason the last line out was not thrown to the front was because Horwill (6 ft 6) took up a position at the front and I think he therefore forced Hibbert to throw long. POC would not have called it differently IMHO.
Other green tinted perspectives -
1. SOB should play - I'm not sure on this - he seems to give away a lot of penalties and can be a bit headless. I assume that is why he has not been a starter so far. Its a risk to play him esp with Aussies kicking their penalties now.
2. Murray is playing a blinder and should start - he has improved a huge amount - but I think he kicks possession away too often
2. BOD is a legend and a leader / inspiration etc - he has played poorly and should be replaced for the last test. (Sadly)
4. Bowe - I thought he looked tentative a couple of times and I am not sure he has really recovered fully from the hand injury.

Sexton probably just about deserves to keep his place ahead of OF. I think they should replace Halfpenny with Hogg (or maybe Kearney) to bring some attacking threat from Full Back (Sexton/Farrell to kick the penalties)
In general this tour has made me rethink the real value of many of the Irish players. We are too quick to call many of our players 'world class' and then wonder why we get our arses kicked by SH teams (and by Eng and France on a regular basis).

than in walks Joe Schmidt...

shuffol

LorMal wrote: »

Think there is a lot of green tinted viewpoints expressed here. The reason the last line out was not thrown to the front was because Horwill (6 ft 6) took up a position at the front and I think he therefore forced Hibbert to throw long. POC would not have called it differently IMHO.
Other green tinted perspectives -
1. SOB should play - I'm not sure on this - he seems to give away a lot of penalties and can be a bit headless. I assume that is why he has not been a starter so far. Its a risk to play him esp with Aussies kicking their penalties now.
2. Murray is playing a blinder and should start - he has improved a huge amount - but I think he kicks possession away too often
2. BOD is a legend and a leader / inspiration etc - he has played poorly and should be replaced for the last test. (Sadly)
4. Bowe - I thought he looked tentative a couple of times and I am not sure he has really recovered fully from the hand injury.

Sexton probably just about deserves to keep his place ahead of OF. I think they should replace Halfpenny with Hogg (or maybe Kearney) to bring some attacking threat from Full Back (Sexton/Farrell to kick the penalties)
In general this tour has made me rethink the real value of many of the Irish players. We are too quick to call many of our players 'world class' and then wonder why we get our arses kicked by SH teams (and by Eng and France on a regular basis).

Not sure what you mean by that, his awareness of players around him and unselfishness with the ball has been very striking all tour.

LorMal

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

No, just no.....

Hogg instead of Halfpenny!?

Not to mention your assessment of the Irish players is horrible harsh, Bowe for example had a great game this weekend all things considered

I know Halfpenny is superb - I am a big fan. But I didn't see him threaten with the ball in hand once (maybe I am wrong on this?). I think Hogg or Kearney would mix it up a bit

Regarding Bowe (again I think he is brilliant normally) - just thought he looked a bit tentative once or twice when tackling and he did not compete for high balls as assertively as usual?

danthefan

LorMal wrote: »

I know Halfpenny is superb - I am a big fan. But I didn't see him threaten with the ball in hand once (maybe I am wrong on this?). I think Hogg or Kearney would mix it up a bit

Regarding Bowe (again I think he is brilliant normally) - just thought he looked a bit tentative once or twice when tackling and he did not compete for high balls as assertively as usual?

You're correct, 1/2p did basically nothing in attack worth a damn. Though he wasn't the only one for the Lions.

LorMal

shuffol wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by that, his awareness of players around him and unselfishness with the ball has been very striking all tour.

sometimes tends to run at the man rather than at the space? Often concedes multiple penalties for the same type of infringement (generally for not releasing)

Otherwise should be automatic starter but really needs to concede less

Rightwing

LorMal wrote: »

Think there is a lot of green tinted viewpoints expressed here. The reason the last line out was not thrown to the front was because Horwill (6 ft 6) took up a position at the front and I think he therefore forced Hibbert to throw long. POC would not have called it differently IMHO.
Other green tinted perspectives -
1. SOB should play - I'm not sure on this - he seems to give away a lot of penalties and can be a bit headless. I assume that is why he has not been a starter so far. Its a risk to play him esp with Aussies kicking their penalties now.
2. Murray is playing a blinder and should start - he has improved a huge amount - but I think he kicks possession away too often
2. BOD is a legend and a leader / inspiration etc - he has played poorly and should be replaced for the last test. (Sadly)
4. Bowe - I thought he looked tentative a couple of times and I am not sure he has really recovered fully from the hand injury.

Sexton probably just about deserves to keep his place ahead of OF. I think they should replace Halfpenny with Hogg (or maybe Kearney) to bring some attacking threat from Full Back (Sexton/Farrell to kick the penalties)
In general this tour has made me rethink the real value of many of the Irish players. We are too quick to call many of our players 'world class' and then wonder why we get our arses kicked by SH teams (and by Eng and France on a regular basis).

I would agree with most of this. This series isn't lost just yet, but changes are needed, and needed from the start.

.ak

LorMal wrote: »

I know Halfpenny is superb - I am a big fan. But I didn't see him threaten with the ball in hand once (maybe I am wrong on this?). I think Hogg or Kearney would mix it up a bit

Regarding Bowe (again I think he is brilliant normally) - just thought he looked a bit tentative once or twice when tackling and he did not compete for high balls as assertively as usual?

Kearney or Hogg would do no more with the amount of ball been given to Halfpenny. That amount is zero.

The back three are being used defensively, aside from the odd kick.

It's a shame because it's one of the best attacking back three ever to wear the Lions jersey.

Swiwi.

So what is NZ saying about the test & the series?

1) Quality of the attacking play slated
2) Beale to 10, JOC to 15 for test 3
3) They support Judgement Day's assessment that the SXV was more entertaining...

I doubt anyone will be too surprised by the above, why leave the warm & cosy heights of the moral high ground?

They do have a point though...

sydthebeat

Without the shackles, the back line of 1/2 p , north and bowe would scare any national team. Pace beyond compare....

Gatland had to allow his players express themselves next week, or he alone will have to hold responsibility for another lions loss.

pickarooney

sydthebeat wrote: »

Without the shackles, the back line of 1/2 p , north and bowe would scare any national team. Pace beyond compare....

Gatland had to allow his players express themselves next week, or he alone will have to hold responsibility for another lions loss.

I wouldn't back them in a relay race against any of the top three sides.

Gambas

LorMal wrote: »

Think there is a lot of green tinted viewpoints expressed here. The reason the last line out was not thrown to the front was because Horwill (6 ft 6) took up a position at the front and I think he therefore forced Hibbert to throw long. POC would not have called it differently IMHO.
Other green tinted perspectives -
1. SOB should play - I'm not sure on this - he seems to give away a lot of penalties and can be a bit headless. I assume that is why he has not been a starter so far. Its a risk to play him esp with Aussies kicking their penalties now.
2. Murray is playing a blinder and should start - he has improved a huge amount - but I think he kicks possession away too often
2. BOD is a legend and a leader / inspiration etc - he has played poorly and should be replaced for the last test. (Sadly)
4. Bowe - I thought he looked tentative a couple of times and I am not sure he has really recovered fully from the hand injury.

Sexton probably just about deserves to keep his place ahead of OF. I think they should replace Halfpenny with Hogg (or maybe Kearney) to bring some attacking threat from Full Back (Sexton/Farrell to kick the penalties)
In general this tour has made me rethink the real value of many of the Irish players. We are too quick to call many of our players 'world class' and then wonder why we get our arses kicked by SH teams (and by Eng and France on a regular basis).

Makes a change from the green blind bias here, but you've over-egged it.

SOB depends on Warbarton's fitness but should be on the bench at least. BOD and Roberts makes more sense than any other partnership. Bowe did all that was asked of him and should stay ahead of Cuthbert. I'm unconvinced by Murray too and think Phillips should come back in. Sexton has been unremarkable overall, but that's the game plan and is still well clear of Farrell, particularly when Halfpenny is in.

.ak

Gambas wrote: »

Makes a change from the green blind bias here, but you've over-egged it.

SOB depends on Warbarton's fitness but should be on the bench at least. BOD and Roberts makes more sense than any other partnership. Bowe did all that was asked of him and should stay ahead of Cuthbert. I'm unconvinced by Murray too and think Phillips should come back in. Sexton has been unremarkable overall, but that's the game plan and is still well clear of Farrell, particularly when Halfpenny is in.

Sam's out.