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N.I census correction,,catholics even closer

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124

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    #92
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Nope ........... BBC's wording was outrageously biased

    I wouldn't consider the BBC poll "outrageously biased" as such but by using "tomorrow" in that question, I think people maybe were thinking about their wallets first and political aspirations second.


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    #93
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    I wouldn't consider the BBC poll "outrageously biased" as such but by using "tomorrow" in that question, I think people maybe were thinking about their wallets first and political aspirations second.
    Well then we agree on one thing. People in the North place economic concerns before nationalist. That in itself is very important to know.


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    #94
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    People in the North place economic concerns before nationalist.

    Economic concerns that are not merely exclusive to Nationalists or the North itself.


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    #95
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Economic concerns that are not merely exclusive to Nationalists or the North itself.
    No but it tells us the economic question is more important then the national question. So long as Britain can keep the standard of living artificially higher in NI then in the Republic then a UI will be indefinitely postponed. That's the conclusion to draw from these results.


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    #96
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    So long as Britain can keep the standard of living artificially higher in NI then in the Republic then a UI will be indefinitely postponed. That's the conclusion to draw from these results.

    There is no doubt that Britain is keeping the standard of living artificially higher in NI. However, the issue is not their ability to keep it higher than the Republic, as they haven't done this in recent years. The issue is NIs chronic need for an economic prop, itself a condemnation of the "United Kingdom.


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    #97
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There is no doubt that Britain is keeping the standard of living artificially higher in NI. However, the issue is not their ability to keep it higher than the Republic, as they haven't done this in recent years. The issue is NIs chronic need for an economic prop, itself a condemnation of the "United Kingdom.
    Why? We repatriate money from Dublin to Mayo. All modern economies try to level the standard of living across the country. The UK is no different and shouldn't be condemned for it.

    P.S Could you use the quote function? It's hard to see who you're talking to.


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    #98
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    The UK is no different and shouldn't be condemned for it.

    Why shouldn't they be condemned for using public expenditure as an instrument of colonisation?
    P.S Could you use the quote function? It's hard to see who you're talking to

    You'll just have to try and keep up.


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    #99
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Why shouldn't they be condemned for using public expenditure as an instrument of colonisation?
    Because they aren't. They're just repatriating capital from the wealthy south of England to the less prosperous NI. To give all citizens of the UK a comparable standard of living. We do the same thing with Dublin and Mayo.
    ardmacha wrote: »
    You'll just have to try and keep up.
    Very well but if this conversation abruptly ends you'll know why.


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    #100
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Because they aren't. They're just repatriating capital from the wealthy south of England to the less prosperous NI

    They've created a situation where the North, once the most prosperous part of the country, is an economic basket case and this is affecting the question of unification, as you often say yourself.
    Very well but if this conversation abruptly ends you'll know why.

    Because you accept my point?


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    #101
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    They've created a situation where the North, once the most prosperous part of the country, is an economic basket case and this is affecting the question of unification, as you often say yourself.
    Britain didn't cause NI's economic hardship. They granted the majority of Ireland independence when they asked for it and now they're trying to make the most out of what they have. In a modern first world economy large regional differences in income wouldn't be accepted so repatriation is necessary.
    ardmacha wrote: »
    Because you accept my point?
    Possibly but I doubt it. More likely I will have missed your post because my username's not at the top.


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    #102
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Britain didn't cause NI's economic hardship. They granted the majority of Ireland independence when they asked for it and now they're trying to make the most out of what they have. In a modern first world economy large regional differences in income wouldn't be accepted so repatriation is necessary.

    The people in Tyrone also asked for independence, why are they less deserving of it than those elsewhere in Ireland?

    So if I have it right, you are saying that Britain did not cause NI's economic hardship, but if all of Ireland had remained in the UK it would, somehow, be prosperous.


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    #103
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    The people in Tyrone also asked for independence, why are they less deserving of it than those elsewhere in Ireland?

    So if I have it right, you are saying that Britain did not cause NI's economic hardship, but if all of Ireland had remained in the UK it would, somehow, be prosperous.
    They did but a compromise had to be made and the line had to be drawn somewhere. No solution would have been perfect and some nationalists were going to be left on the "wrong" side.

    I said nothing of the sort. Ireland's economic position within the UK would be impossible to predict.


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    #104
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Because they aren't. They're just repatriating capital from the wealthy south of England to the less prosperous NI. To give all citizens of the UK a comparable standard of living. We do the same thing with Dublin and Mayo.

    Ardmacha talked about the transfer of wealth as an instrument of colonisation. British colonisation had political consequences on this island. You've already said that British economic policy in NI (artificial raising of it's living standards) has a potential knock on political effect (the postponement of a UI). The transfer of capital between Dublin and Mayo does not, if linked to similar political consequences, i.e. it probably won't influence Mayo's political status within the RoI, so why use Dublin and Mayo as an example?


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    #105
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »
    Ardmacha talked about the transfer of wealth as an instrument of colonisation. British colonisation had political consequences on this island. You've already said that British economic policy in NI (artificial raising of it's living standards) has a potential knock on political effect (the postponement of a UI). The transfer of capital between Dublin and Mayo does not, if linked to similar political consequences, i.e. it probably won't influence Mayo's political status within the RoI, so why use Dublin and Mayo as an example?
    I have no doubt the British are aware their financial repatriation promotes political stability but this doesn't mean their motivations are limited to the maintenance of the UK. All modern economies promote a standardised standard of living across the whole country. Ireland is no different and I used it as an example.

    I don't think it is fair to say the UK is promoting colonisation. Large scale regional differences in wealth would not be tolerated. They're just doing what their citizens are demanding of them.


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    #106
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I don't claim that the modern British government is quite promoting colonisation in the manner of their predecessors. However, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a real union of equals, it is Britain and an appendage. The British have no real interest or understanding in the other bit, they just do their own thing and then sort NI's needs with a few £. Like a marriage where the wife has a credit card with a good limit, but no real respect or equal status. Like such a marriage these golden shackles make it hard to leave, but not especially happy. In these turbulent economic times this deal is tolerable. In a decade or so, when the Republic is again moving ahead and the majority in NI are no longer unionist in any meaningful sense, this contradiction will become much more apparent.


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    #107
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ardmacha wrote: »
    I don't claim that the modern British government is quite promoting colonisation in the manner of their predecessors. However, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not a real union of equals, it is Britain and an appendage. The British have no real interest or understanding in the other bit, they just do their own thing and then sort NI's needs with a few £. Like a marriage where the wife has a credit card with a good limit, but no real respect or equal status. Like such a marriage these golden shackles make it hard to leave, but not especially happy. In these turbulent economic times this deal is tolerable. In a decade or so, when the Republic is again moving ahead and the majority in NI are no longer unionist in any meaningful sense, this contradiction will become much more apparent.

    And then at that point Dublin will finance the north but it will be different because they will really respect the north and we will all live happily ever after?


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    #108
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    And then at that point Dublin will finance the north but it will be different because they will really respect the north and we will all live happily ever after?

    Why should Dublin "finance" the North? We want a United Ireland, not one with a main bit and a supplicant appendage. The north, south, east and west should be the same, and can certainly live happily ever after if you and your ilk are not trying to keep 17th century ethic concepts alive.


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    #109
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Why should Dublin "finance" the North? We want a United Ireland, not one with a main bit and a supplicant appendage. The north, south, east and west should be the same, and can certainly live happily ever after if you and your ilk are not trying to keep 17th century ethic concepts alive.

    It really is as simple as dublin would be the main financial hub of the country, I would imagine that dublin already supports the rest of the country? Why would this change?


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    #110
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    In the Republic, the likes of Cork is more or less about the average, there is some flow of resources from Dublin to the likes of Leitrim or Roscommon. In a United Ireland one would expect some subsidy to Fermanagh or West Tyrone, but the Belfast area would not need this.


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    #111
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    ardmacha wrote: »
    In the Republic, the likes of Cork is more or less about the average, there is some flow of resources from Dublin to the likes of Leitrim or Roscommon. In a United Ireland one would expect some subsidy to Fermanagh or West Tyrone, but the Belfast area would not need this.

    Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!


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    #112
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    gallag wrote: »
    Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!
    Because apparently in a UI all of the Norths many economic problems will be solved.


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    #113
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!

    That is my point, it is not thriving under British rule. The least they could do is to keep it in working order!

    Because apparently in a UI all of the Norths many economic problems will be solved.

    Indeed, they probably will only be solved in a UI, given the dysfunctional nature of the UK. Question is, how do we get from here to there?


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    #114
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Indeed, they probably will only be solved in a UI, given the dysfunctional nature of the UK. Question is, how do we get from here to there?
    Don't know, don't care. NI is not my priority, Ireland is. If unifying Ireland means economic or political destabilisation for the South then that's just something I won't support.


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    #115
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Don't know, don't care. NI is not my priority, Ireland is. If unifying Ireland means economic or political destabilisation for the South then that's just something I won't support.

    So its a case of I'm alright Jack, my part of Ireland is OK, screw the rest of you, looking after no 1. A common enough attitude in 21st century Ireland, perhaps you should make a tape!

    Higher values are needed for the sake of all parts of the country.


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    #116
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    So its a case of I'm alright Jack, my part of Ireland is OK, screw the rest of you, looking after no 1. A common enough attitude in 21st century Ireland, you should make a tape.
    Pretty much. NI has nothing to offer us. We need neither their land, labour or capital. The only thing NI can offer us is a headache.That's why I don't support Unification. I prefer stabilisation.


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    #117
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Pretty much. NI has nothing to offer us. We need neither their land, labour or capital.

    the same could be said for Tallaght, or Roscommon.


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    #118
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    ardmacha wrote: »
    the same could be said for Tallaght, or Roscommon.
    It could but we aren't talking about taking on Roscommon. Neither does Roscommon have the potential to cause political instability.


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    #119
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    The idea that a border poll which in any case has to be agreed upon by the British Viceroy in Ireland will re-establish the Republic suppressed in the early 1920s is laughable.


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    #120
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    gallag wrote: »
    Why would belfast not need it? Overnight it would have 50% unemployment, destabilised security and the highest ratio of disability living benefits, N.I would cripple the south!

    Remaining within the UK has crippled north east Ulster.

    The "south" has no moral right to abandon not only an integral part of the Irish nation but the area where the dream of the Irish Republic were bred and born.

    The Irish nation is not simply a head count of those entitled to vote but the long generations past who forged her spirit and where forged by it as well as the generations of Irish women and men yet to be born. You have no moral right based on selfish, what could easily be called grubby, motives to deny and fight against the assertion of control over this nation's destiny by herself.


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    #121
    sanbrafyffe
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭sanbrafyffe


    well said lad

    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Remaining within the UK has crippled north east Ulster.

    The "south" has no moral right to abandon not only an integral part of the Irish nation but the area where the dream of the Irish Republic were bred and born.

    The Irish nation is not simply a head count of those entitled to vote but the long generations past who forged her spirit and where forged by it as well as the generations of Irish women and men yet to be born. You have no moral right based on selfish, what could easily be called grubby, motives to deny and fight against the assertion of control over this nation's destiny by herself.


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