Am I going to hell?

Andrewf20

Whats are people thoughts on this biblical quote?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Is the OP an enemy of Christ?

peaceboi

If the op refuses to believe in Christ and accept him as his personal Lord and saviour in the first place,
it is the ultimate sin, to reject the Son of God and refuse to hear his words or accept his sufferings.
It condemns to eternal punishment. "But everyone who rejects me and my teachings will be judged on the last day by what I have said." (John 12:48).
As Christ said
"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me." Matthew 12:30.

Andrewf20

peaceboi wrote: »

The op refuses to believe in Christ and accept him as his personal Lord and saviour in the first place! Obviously to reject the Son of God and refuse to hear his words or accept his sufferings is the ultimate sin. It condemns to eternal punishment. "But everyone who rejects me and my teachings will be judged on the last day by what I have said." (John 12:48). So as Christ said
"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me." Matthew 12:30.

Do you think belief in X(i.e. anything) is a choice?

Benny_Cake

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Do you think belief in X(i.e. anything) is a choice?

Just to butt in here, I'm not sure that faith in God is a conscious choice - it's not something that you can force yourself to have. In my experience, it isn't a mere intellectual exercise either. I'm lucky in that I had a happy childhood with a loving family and my experience of church was a positive one - faith is easier for me because I see God's presence every day in the wonderful people I've been blessed to share my life with. There are plenty of people who suffer terribly in life and God's grace is difficult for them to see. One story I found hard to shake is of a woman who as a child was abused by a priest in a church building. For that woman, to see a church is to remember the suffering she went through.

In short, neither I nor anyone else has the right to pronounce judgement on the OP. We can't see his heart. I think we'd be all a lot better off if we followed the teachings of Christ and loving everyone rather than taking it upon ourselves to pronounce who is in and who is out.

nucker

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

I can't judge you

\thread

peaceboi

To Andrewf20 Oh yes, The choice is ours. God has given us the gift of Free Will, the ability to choose one's course of action.
Free Will allows us to choose whether or not we want to love God.
God wants us to love Him only because we choose to love Him, not because we have no other choice in the matter.
Love without sincerity is empty and meaningless; for love to have real meaning, it must be voluntarily chosen.
Without the gift of free will, we wouldn't have the opportunity to show Him real, meaningful love.

"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live." Deuteronomy 30:19

Free will is what enables us to make choices, either for the good or the bad: I can choose to join a Church, or can choose to join a street gang.
We can choose to believe in God, or we can choose to be an atheist. Our choice to use or abuse the gift of free will is our reflection of faith, and each person will be judged according to his or her deeds. Matthew 16:27

ILoveGuinness

peaceboi wrote: »

"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live." Deuteronomy 30:19

That's some "choice" he gives! sounds a lot more like choose god or die to me. I know what choice i would make!

wrote:

Free will is what enables us to make choices, either for the good or the bad: I can choose to join a Church, or can choose to join a street gang.
We can choose to believe in God, or we can choose to be an atheist. Our choice to use or abuse the gift of free will is our reflection of faith, and each person will be judged according to his or her deeds. Matthew 16:27

It's a pretty poor comparison to choose between joining a church or joining a street gang, but ill assume your going for polar opposites rathe than saying, oh I don't know, the opposite of joining a church maybe?! Like NOT joining one! And I feel obliged that most atheists do not CHOOSE to believe in god, belief is not I choice at all, its a subset of knowledge. You cannot choose
to believe the earth is flat if you know that all of the evidence points towards a spherical earth, no matter how hard you try. Atheism for most is the same, we cannot accept that god exists because so there is absolutely no evidence beyond wishful thinking to say he does.
also, I still stand by the op, in his situation, he's off to Hell!

silentrust

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Its probably a case of "I cant believe" instead of "I wont believe" for alot of people.

...Yes, I said as much in response to this post.

tayto lover

Does anyone seriously believe that we have a God who would allow someone to suffer the flames of Hell for an eternity?

I just do not believe that.
I think our Hell, if it exists at all, is when things are going bad here and we're suffering.

onlinenerd

tayto lover wrote: »

Does anyone seriously believe that we have a God who would allow someone to suffer the flames of Hell for an eternity?

I just do not believe that.
I think our Hell, if it exists at all, is when things are going bad here and we're suffering.

Yup and remember wars are punishment for mankind's sins.

silentrust

onlinenerd wrote: »

Yup and remember wars are punishment for mankind's sins.

Certainly where religion drives people to violence, we're being punished for our own ignorance.

Can you think of one or two places in the world that might benefit instantly from a mass outbreak of secularism? I can! :-)

onlinenerd

Tell me

Galwayguy35

tayto lover wrote: »

Does anyone seriously believe that we have a God who would allow someone to suffer the flames of Hell for an eternity?

I just do not believe that.
I think our Hell, if it exists at all, is when things are going bad here and we're suffering.

Yes, people like Hitler and Stalin come to mind, also serial killers.

nucker

silentrust wrote: »

Certainly where religion drives people to violence, we're being punished for our own ignorance.

Can you think of one or two places in the world that might benefit instantly from a mass outbreak of secularism? I can! :-)

I like to know as well

nucker

tayto lover wrote: »

Does anyone seriously believe that we have a God who would allow someone to suffer the flames of Hell for an eternity?

I just do not believe that.
I think our Hell, if it exists at all, is when things are going bad here and we're suffering.

Yup, all those who don't repent of their wrong doings as in give up their wrong ways in life and have remorse for the bad that they've done

Benny_Cake

silentrust wrote: »

Certainly where religion drives people to violence, we're being punished for our own ignorance.

Can you think of one or two places in the world that might benefit instantly from a mass outbreak of secularism? I can! :-)

Take this here or here. This thread is for discussion about the topic of hell only.

silentrust

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Take this here or here. This thread is for discussion about the topic of hell only.

We are discussing the topic of hell Mod, please don't be so overzealous. I've had to chat to other Mods about this before.

The topic at hand is whether living a morally upright life is sufficient to avoid hell. Therefore the issue of ethics as they relate to religion is relevant, which is why I mentioned it.

tommy2bad

silentrust wrote: »

The topic at hand is whether living a morally upright life is sufficient to avoid hell. Therefore the issue of ethics as they relate to religion is relevant, which is why I mentioned it.

Works alone won't save you. You also need Grace from God. so living a morally upright life won't save you from hell. How that works is a whole other ball game that even Christians can't agree on.
Then you have to define hell, which all of us deserve seemingly, burning flame? lake of fire? outer darkness? No wonder people are put off by the whole thing.

Anyway, if you are interisted this is a good piece on Hell and how it might work, it adresses some of the objections to the idea of a just God who condemns to eternal suffering His own creation.
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

It is long, best read quickly and reread a couple of times.

peaceboi

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Do you think belief in X(i.e. anything) is a choice?

tayto lover wrote: »

Does anyone seriously believe that we have a God who would allow someone to suffer the flames of Hell for an eternity?

I just do not believe that.
I think our Hell, if it exists at all, is when things are going bad here and we're suffering.

The Biblical teaching of hell is often badly misunderstood. Certainly, if God unjustly punished His creatures for eternity, He would be evil rather than good.

Luke 12:47-48, shows that punishment will depend on a number of factors, including one’s knowledge of truth, one’s intent, and one’s rejection of the good news and “light” of Christ.
Jesus openly condemned the cities in which most of His miracles were performed ( Matthew 11:20-24 ) and told them they would be judged more harshly in the day of judgment than Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom.
But at the same time, He displayed deep compassion toward sinners. Even when He was on the cross He said, “Father, forgive them for they don’t know what they do” ( Luke 23:34 ).
And to the good thief who choose to repent " ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ And he said to him, ‘Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise’” (Luke 23:32-43).

Its just wrong to think of hell as a place where sinners will receive horribly disproportionate punishment for their sins. But a person’s presence in hell would be the result of a long series of choices. As a person passes through life, he/she either becomes more open to truth, love, and spiritual life or he willfully withdraws from the light that God has given him and begins a descent towards spiritual darkness and death.

However, God cannot allow sin in His glorified presence, but for those who choose to live in a decision of sin rather than to believe in Jesus Christ his own Son who paid all the penalty of sin.
I guess that's why the separation.
" Between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Luke 16:26

Andrewf20

peaceboi wrote: »

The Biblical teaching of hell is often badly misunderstood. Certainly, if God unjustly punished His creatures for eternity, He would be evil rather than good.

Luke 12:47-48, shows that punishment will depend on a number of factors, including one’s knowledge of truth, one’s intent, and one’s rejection of the good news and “light” of Christ.
Jesus openly condemned the cities in which most of His miracles were performed ( Matthew 11:20-24 ) and told them they would be judged more harshly in the day of judgment than Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom.
But at the same time, He displayed deep compassion toward sinners. Even when He was on the cross He said, “Father, forgive them for they don’t know what they do” ( Luke 23:34 ).
And to the good thief who choose to repent " ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ And he said to him, ‘Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise’” (Luke 23:32-43).

Its just wrong to think of hell as a place where sinners will receive horribly disproportionate punishment for their sins. But a person’s presence in hell would be the result of a long series of choices. As a person passes through life, he/she either becomes more open to truth, love, and spiritual life or he willfully withdraws from the light that God has given him and begins a descent towards spiritual darkness and death.

However, God cannot allow sin in His glorified presence, but for those who choose to live in a decision of sin rather than to believe in Jesus Christ his own Son who paid all the penalty of sin.
I guess that's why the separation.
" Between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Luke 16:26

Not sure that answers my question. You are assuming genuine belief in something is a choice that you can flip on its head when you want.

Lots of religons claim to be the truth. I think any person should be entitled to doubt the claims of Christianity, in the same way a Christian should be entitled to doubt the claims of others religons.

peaceboi

I meant, that to believe in God or not is your own choice to make.
It’s certainly not God's will that souls be sent to hell.
We know from the Scripture that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth [1 Tim. 2:4].
and that he wants no one to be lost, but all to reach repentance [2 Pet. 3:9].
But, because we have the free will, when a person rejects God and does not wish to be with him, God wouldn't coerce that person into being saved against his/her free choice.
How can anyone be saved against his/her will? I like this quote from C. S. Lewis's The Great Divorce:

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in hell chose it. Without that self-choice there could be no hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. ”

martinedwards

to piggyback their way into heaven?

if you aren't in the AA you don't expect them to come to your roadside assistance for free.....

so why expect to get into heaven for some random good deed decades ago when you aren't a believer?

desertcircus

martinedwards wrote: »

to piggyback their way into heaven?

if you aren't in the AA you don't expect them to come to your roadside assistance for free.....

so why expect to get into heaven for some random good deed decades ago when you aren't a believer?

Because if heaven does exist, it would seem very odd to base access to it on membership of a subsect of a specific religion rather than on good deeds and honesty.

Manach

My uninformed musings are that; should a moral and a life of good deeds allow the individual into heaven regardless of belief - or at least into the intermediate stage such as Purgatory, yes. However, for the Christian and using the lower case catholic it is the universality of allowing people to obtain heaven: ie that as part of the Christian mission statement it is the do onto others, to lead them and society as a whole into a better life by prayer, deeds, example and hence heaven.

martinedwards

"it would seem very odd" to be allowed in if you denied it's existance and the existance of the host too!

Gumbi

I wouldn't say belief is a choice, peaceboi. No matter how much I might want, I can't choose to believe in Santa, or unicorns.

K.Flyer

If a person who lives in a remote area, with little or no contact with the outside world beyond his village but goes through his life being charitable, helpful and generally a good person to all around him, irrespective of which religon he was born into, (but for the sake of this discussion we will say a non-christian one), why should he be denied entry to heaven, according to the belief of others, solely based on his religion, presuming he knew of no other.

28064212

martinedwards wrote: »

"it would seem very odd" to be allowed in if you denied it's existance and the existance of the host too!

If you denied its existance, why would you expect to piggyback in?

And to answer the original question, for 90% of the population, your faith is an accident of birth. The vast majority of people wiil keep the same religion as their parents. What kind of God would deliberately go out to automatically exclude well over half of the world's population, for a reason they had no control over?

peaceboi

I was referring to believing in Lord Jesus Christ, in light to what he said in the Scriptures
"I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life.
No one comes to the Father, except through me.
If you had known me, certainly you would also have known my Father." John 14:6

I think its up to us, if we want to believe in him, his words.

tommy2bad

And again, people are confusing belief with knowledge. Their not the same thing, Knowing something is not the same as believing a thing. You don't require trust to know, you must trust to believe.
The enemy of belief isn't knowledge, it's fear.