Am I going to hell?

hinault

Gumbi wrote: »

Let's start with that which I already pointed out (for the third time now), MrPudding's point - which you still haven't addressed??? You said "I didn't set the rules", that's neither an explanation nor a justification.

That's fine that you don't want to answer the question that I asked you.

If you do happen to answer the question that I asked you I'll deal with it then.
In the meantime, I won't bother responding any further to your replies until you do decide to reply to the question that you were asked.

Gumbi

hinault wrote: »

That's fine that you don't want to answer the question that I asked you.

If you do happen to answer the question that I asked you I'll deal with it then.
In the meantime, I won't bother responding any further to your replies until you do decide to reply to the question that you were asked.

Why are you dodging my question? I'll answer for the fourth time : pretend I said what MrPudding said. That's what we call "agreeing with someone". I agree with MrPudding's point. You have not answered hist point, and by extension (because I agreed with it), my point. As I said before, saying "I did not set the rules" is not an adequate answer.

sbsquarepants

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interpretation of the meaning of certain passages. As for eternal salvation, you may wish to read up on the third option I mentioned.

I hadn't heard the term universalism before, i've had a quick read and basically it renders your answer quite uninformative, you may as well have said the main options are everything and anything. He may be saved, but then again he may not - i'm none the wiser.
What incidentaly would be the position on someone who had heard the gospels but through no fault of their own was unable to live by it, say a mentally ill person, serial killers and whatnot. After all the illness is not their fault, it could be argued that it's gods or at the very least another persons (most have suffered fairly horrific abuse as kids, coupled to pre existing pscopathy or similar - all out of their hands) I wouldn't much fancy getting to the pearly gates and looking through only to see the place over run with fierce warrior tribes and serial killers on every corner:)

And Gumbi - I think it's fairly likely that you wont be getting an answer (i've also asked the question and been ignored!).

Gumbi

The worst part is, I'm the one who is dodging apparently! I agree with you and challenge him to respond, and the whole shebang is turned around on me. Rofl.

onlinenerd

Zombrex wrote: »

Can someone explain what the difference between being punished for sin and not accepting God's gift of salvation are. Both seem to end up in hell.

So I sin. Then Jesus takes my punishment. So despite being sinful I no longer deserve punishment for this sin.

Surely in that state (sinner but punishment free) I am not the in the same class as someone who is a sinner but has not had someone else take their punishment.

Christianity seems to treat these two class of people the same, which doesn't make a huge amont of sense to me.

I can see where you are coming from but Jesus took the punishment of sinners so we may be able to go to heaven because during the Old Testament times even small sins meant you went to hell because you were not pure enough to enter heaven and that's why Christ died and descended into hell to free all trapped souls like we say in the apostles creed and this is no excuse to sin because you are condemning yourself to hell.

homer911

Gumbi wrote: »

The worst part is, I'm the one who is dodging apparently! ***. I agree with you and challenge him to respond, and the whole shebang is turned around on me. Rofl.

Gumbi, I'm not a mod, but such posting could get you barred - have a read of the charter

Gumbi

homer911 wrote: »

Gumbi, I'm not a mod, but such posting could get you barred - have a read of the charter

Wtf is somewhat mild by Internet-lingo standards, but I'll take it out anyways.

sbsquarepants

homer911 wrote: »

Gumbi, I'm not a mod, but such posting could get you barred - have a read of the charter

That's a bit overly sensitive do you not think?

onlinenerd wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from but Jesus took the punishment of sinners so we may be able to go to heaven because during the Old Testament times even small sins meant you went to hell because you were not pure enough to enter heaven and that's why Christ died and descended into hell to free all trapped souls like we say in the apostles creed and this is no excuse to sin because you are condemning yourself to hell.

Is that not basically saying that the big man originally made a mistake and when he realised it anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000 years later he had to send a minnion to fix it up? Why could he not just snap his fingers and say right you lot down there, party at my gaf let's go? He is apparently omnipotent after all.

amber07

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

no he wont do that,hell is here on this earth,thats why theres recession,tragedys,sickness and suffering,so i dont believewe will go to hell twice.

Gumbi

amber07 wrote: »

no he wont do that,hell is here on this earth,thats why theres recession,tragedys,sickness and suffering,so i dont believewe will go to hell twice.

The recession is nothing new...

Trust me, I am not in hell, I was lucky enough to be born in a first world country with nothing more than first world problems, while millions of people starve every effing day. I think you should be grateful for that.

onlinenerd

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's a bit overly sensitive do you not think?



Is that not basically saying that the big man originally made a mistake and when he realised it anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000 years later he had to send a minnion to fix it up? Why could he not just snap his fingers and say right you lot down there, party at my gaf let's go? He is apparently omnipotent after all.

God never makes mistakes but we as humans damaged the relationship with God when we disobeyed him when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and so God sent his son to rekindle the relationship with God;)

Gumbi

onlinenerd wrote: »

God never makes mistakes but we as humans damaged the relationship with God when we disobeyed him when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and so God sent his son to rekindle the relationship with God;)

Adam and Eve did not exist, this is clear from today's understanding of the genetic variety of the human species.

onlinenerd

Gumbi wrote: »

Adam and Eve did not exist, this is clear from today's understanding of the genetic variety of the human species.

You are talking from a secular scientist view while I am talking from a faithful believers view.

sbsquarepants

onlinenerd wrote: »

God never makes mistakes but we as humans damaged the relationship with God when we disobeyed him when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and so God sent his son to rekindle the relationship with God;)

If i was a beliver i'd have to say that i'd find the idea that god doesn't make mistakes to be terrifying.
That means this is the way he planned it? Aids, cancer, volcanoes, earthquakes, droughts, floods, malaria, jedward and all that stuff is ON PURPOSE:eek::eek:

Gumbi

onlinenerd wrote: »

You are talking from a secular scientist view while I am talking from a faithful believers view.

I'm talking from a point of view that actually informs itself. Are you aware of that about which I speak when I refer to the genetic variation in animal (specifically human, if you like) populations?

onlinenerd

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If i was a beliver i'd have to say that i'd find the idea that god doesn't make mistakes to be terrifying.
That means this is the way he planned it? Aids, cancer, volcanoes, earthquakes, droughts, floods, malaria, jedward and all that stuff is ON PURPOSE:eek::eek:

Interestingly God has answered these questions in the Bible when the Pharisees asked Jesus whose fault it was the person was sick and Jesus said he was sick for the glorification of Gods Kingdom. All bad things in the world dont mean it is because of God alone we humans also have to take the blame as well for the wars instead of saying God is cruel and unjust. Always remember that God has a great plan for each and every one of you and if it is according to his will it will be for your success and greatness and not for your failure and defeat.

onlinenerd

Gumbi wrote: »

I'm talking from a point of view that actually informs itself. Are you aware of that about which I speak when I refer to the genetic variation in animal (specifically human, if you like) populations?

I cant deny the existence of Adam and Eve in the Bible because the Bible has been around for thousands of years while the your discovery in the variation of species might only have been discovered in the last century and in the coming years there will be flaws discovered in it.:D

tommy2bad

onlinenerd wrote: »

I cant deny the existence of Adam and Eve in the Bible because the Bible has been around for thousands of years while the your discovery in the variation of species might only have been discovered in the last century and in the coming years there will be flaws discovered in it.:D

Good luck with that, don't hold your breath.

greenpilot

onlinenerd wrote: »

I cant deny the existence of Adam and Eve in the Bible because the Bible has been around for thousands of years while the your discovery in the variation of species might only have been discovered in the last century and in the coming years there will be flaws discovered in it.:D

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onlinenerd

tommy2bad wrote: »

Good luck with that, don't hold your breath.

Truth alone triumphs:cool:

Benny_Cake

Gumbi wrote: »

I'm talking from a point of view that actually informs itself. Are you aware of that about which I speak when I refer to the genetic variation in animal (specifically human, if you like) populations?

onlinenerd wrote: »

I cant deny the existence of Adam and Eve in the Bible because the Bible has been around for thousands of years while the your discovery in the variation of species might only have been discovered in the last century and in the coming years there will be flaws discovered in it.:D

The Creationism megathread is here. Hellfire and brimstone related chatter here, thanks!

tayto lover

I was always taught that God knows all things.
If that is so then why did he have to give us a "free will"? He already knows how we will use it.
I was always taught that God is all "forgiving" . If that is so then why the need for Hell?

My religion is going downhill as I keep finding problems with some of the stuff we were taught.

hinault

tayto lover wrote: »

I was always taught that God knows all things.
If that is so then why did he have to give us a "free will"? He already knows how we will use it.
I was always taught that God is all "forgiving" . If that is so then why the need for Hell?

My religion is going downhill as I keep finding problems with some of the stuff we were taught.

It is a question that I've hard before.

God is infinite and omnipotent.
He does knows that you will use your free will in all things temporal and spiritual.

God knows what you will do in advance.
That knowledge doesn't determine what you, using your own free will, will choose to do.
It is you, and only you, who will determine what you do.
The fact that God already knows what you will do, in no way negates your free will in the matter.

tayto lover

hinault wrote: »

It is a question that I've hard before.

God is infinite and omnipotent.
He does knows that you will use your free will in all things temporal and spiritual.

God knows what you will do in advance.
That knowledge doesn't determine what you, using your own free will, will choose to do.
It is you, and only you, who will determine what you do.
The fact that God already knows what you will do, in no way negates your free will in the matter.

So why did he give me life and let me endure many years of using my free will if he already knows the answers?
If I put a cheap battery in one toy car and a Duracell in another I know which one will out-last the other every time, so I have no need to prolong the experiment.

lmaopml

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

I think your question is loaded OP. You are asking people to 'judge' you - but they can't, only God knows the heart of a person - you might as well ask people to 'save' you, and they can't do that either, only God knows the heart of a person, and judges perfectly.

At the end of the day, you know your own heart and what is in it, and what drives it, and the motives - and so too does God. One thing I will say, is that if anybody is saved, it's soley because God loved first, because God is love.

As far as Christianity is concerned, we believe in an all loving all merciful God, that not only proved that it is more than merely a 'word' but also showed how to 'love', because all real love involves sacrifice of some kind - but we don't know your heart - that's your business not to be mischievous with. There is nothing more noble than honesty, and that's the first stop gap.

hinault

tayto lover wrote: »

So why did he give me life and let me endure many years of using my free will if he already knows the answers?

Perhaps he did so in the hope that you will make the choice to try to adhere to His teaching?

It is you solely who will determine what you choose to do throughout your life.
No one else makes that choice for you, not even God.

The fact that He knows your outcome doesn't negate your chance to exercise your free will.

ILoveGuinness

lmaopml wrote: »

only God knows the heart of a person, and judges perfectly.

At the end of the day, you know your own heart and what is in it, and what drives it, and the motives - and so too does God. One thing I will say, is that if anybody is saved, it's soley because God loved first, because God is love.

So are you saying that if you firmly "know" you are morally good and correct in your heart, then in the eyes of god you can be saved? I'll use an extreme example here to illustrate how silly that is. Hitler is quoted often as performing god's work in ridding the world of the Jews. He obviously was an immoral psychopath. But in his heart he surely must have felt he was doing the right thing. By your logic he would have an even shot at heaven as the OP. That seems hard to bear.
The reason the bible is promoted as a guide to living and a source of objective morality is to take these worries away from people. Belief is the key first step towards heaven. Being aware of Christianity and not believing, I'm afraid, equals hell. It's all I the text.

MrPudding

hinault wrote: »

Perhaps he did so in the hope that you will make the choice to try to adhere to His teaching?

It is you solely who will determine what you choose to do throughout your life.
No one else makes that choice for you, not even God.

The fact that He knows your outcome doesn't negate your chance to exercise your free will.

If we leave aside the philosophical question around whether freewill exists if every single act you will take is already known by a being that created you and all the circumstances of your existence, you still have a problem.

This problem is related to proportionality that I mentioned earlier. Forever is a really, really long time. Relative to forever a human life span, be it a single second or 120 years is completely inconsequential. Expressed as a ratio it would be represented by zero. This raises the question of why such a short period of time can be considered a reasonable test for a reward, or punishment, that lasts forever.

of course the answer to this is probably that god know everything and before there even was an earth he knew exactly what every single person that would ever be born would do and exactly who would get into heaven.

This then begs the question, why have this tiny inconsequential life on earth at all? God already has all the information he needs, he has a list, he has checked it twice and he knows who is going to be naughty and who is going to be nice. Why go trough all the rigmarole of life on earth? It is very easy for us, sitting in a first world country complaining about the lack of wifi coverage when we are out and about, saying it is a grand test, but there are billions of people not having quite so much fun.

So whilst to you in you comfortable life, and I fully except that there are hardships in Ireland today but we really don;t know what a hard life is, see the sense of this "test", to someone that knows nothing but pain and suffering, the validity of this test might not be so obvious.

If god already knows who is worthy of heaven, why force billions of people to suffer? Where is the righteousness or justice in that?

There is absolutely no sense in creating a being, knowing it is flawed and will not easily be able to live up to your standards but carry on regardless. Further, even though you know it was flawed, and even though you know, as you have always done, that it will tend towards sin, which you hate, you set things up so that if and when this being fails, as you know it will, during a ridiculously short lifespan, when it dies you will punish it forever. The funniest part of this is you then tell everyone that in spite of this you are a loving and fair god...

There is a principle in law called oblique intention, and it is rather interesting. What it says, in very basic terms, is that, if a person embarks on a particular course of action with a particular intention or wanting a particular result, but there was another result or outcome that was virtually certain to come about as a result of that course of action then the person intended that other result. As an example, lets say I tied someone up on the beach at low tide with the intention of giving them a scare. I do not intend to kill them, merely to scare them. Whilst I don't directly intend to scare them, I must know that unless someone intervenes and rescues the tied up person they will die when the tide comes in, it is a virtual certainty. As far as the law is concerned I intended for that person to die.

Then we have your god. He created humans, at the time he created them he knew for certain, not virtually certain, absolutely certain, that we would fail to live up to his standards. He knew that many would end up having to be punished for eternity, and yet, he continued with his course of action, therefore he intended for people to be punished forever. But wait, I hear you cry, he has given us a way out. Yes he has, he has developed a system whereby we can, apparently, avoid the punishment that he has decided is necessary for the behaviour that we exhibit as a result of the way that he made us. That is a little bit like a guy threatening to cut a woman's throat unless she has sex with him. The risk and threat are purely of the man's making. Should the woman choose not to have sex with him he cannot say, "well, all she had to do was have sex with me and she would have been ok." That is not acceptable. Similarly, the threat we have hanging over us is one purely of god's making, the reason we are likely to fail is purely of gods making, telling us that there is a way to avoid the punishment does not take away from the fact the the sole reason we are in the position of actually needing to be saved is as a direct result of the thing offering us the salvation.

Dress it up how you like, but it doesn't make any sense.

MrP

Gumbi

I hadn't considered the proportionality issue before. You're right, 100 years is actually 0 in comparison to infinity. Infinity divided by 100 is still infinity!

tayto lover

hinault wrote: »

Perhaps he did so in the hope that you will make the choice to try to adhere to His teaching?

It is you solely who will determine what you choose to do throughout your life.
No one else makes that choice for you, not even God.

The fact that He knows your outcome doesn't negate your chance to exercise your free will.

But he already knows what I will do.