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I need feminism because...

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    #152
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    I believe in equality for all and feminism does not conflict with egalitarian principles but concerns itself with female issues of equality specifically. Therein lies the difference.

    How can you have only a female issue of equality. By definition equality issues affect both genders. Are you saying that where women are more equal then that isnt an issue that needs addressing by feminism? Does feminism only address issues of equality where women are disadvantaged? So what happens then if feminism achieves all of its aims and every area where women are perceived to be disadvantaged, they are no longer. Will we have an equal society then? Will feminism have achieved what it set out to do? Well if that's correct then we categorically say that feminism is not about equality because that would certainly not be an gender equal society.


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    #153
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    That's fair enough. The only problem with this, I believe, is then that both genders would require representation in the interests of overall equality and this regrettably leads to an adversarial system.
    I don't see why it should, no one has greater insight into mens issues then men and no one better to represent them than those who have personal experience of it. The two are not opposing each other.


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    #154
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    ah I see.

    not sure I understand?


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    #155
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    Playboy wrote: »
    How can you have only a female issue of equality. By definition equality issues affect both genders. Are you saying that where women are more equal then that isnt an issue that needs addressing by feminism, Does feminism only address issues of equality where women are disadvantaged? So what happens then if feminism achieves all of its aims and every area where women are perceived to be disadvantaged, they are no longer. Will we have an equal society then? Will feminism have achieved what it set out to do? Well if that's correct then we categorically say that feminism is not about equality because that would certainly not be an gender equal society.
    I didn't say that there were only female issues of equality. I said that feminism concerns itself with female issues of equality.


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    #156
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    if it means something different to you then feel free to discuss it

    What's the point? None of us can agree on what it is anyway.


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    #157
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    Playboy wrote: »
    not sure I understand?

    do you believe that feminism impinges on male rights or privilege?


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    #158
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    I didn't say that there were only female issues of equality. I said that feminism concerns itself with female issues of equality.

    not sure that makes any difference to my post.


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    #159
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    Playboy wrote: »
    not sure that makes any difference to my post.

    well then.


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    #160
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    do you believe that feminism impinges on male rights or privilege?

    I don't know. Certainly some people who call themselves feminists would like to and try but then lots of other people who call themselves feminists disagree with them. I'm just confused :confused:


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    #161
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    well then.

    I dont think you understand... "feminism only concerns itself with female issues of equality"... I said how can you only have a female issue of equality?


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    #162
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    Playboy wrote: »
    I dont think you understand... feminism only concerns itself with female issues of equality... I said how can you only have a female issue of equality?

    can you not understand that?


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    #163
    Playboy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    pharmaton wrote: »
    can you not understand that?

    I explained myself in the post.. this is getting tiresome. Is this how you normally have a discussion?


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    #164
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    Playboy wrote: »
    I explained myself in the post.. this is getting tiresome. Is this how you normally have a discussion?
    I...

    Issues that concern women? I'm doing my best to make it clear?


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    #165
    ciara1052
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭ciara1052


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Well maybe you're not a feminist. You can't all be feminists and have such, frankly, incompatible views.

    I don't have time for a full reply atm - but you keep missing what I'm trying to explain -

    I'm a feminist based on my understanding of feminism. Up until my mid teens I ignored the entire issue (because feminism translated as I hate men/agenda of some sort).

    There are a lot of people who call themselves feminists with different views/opinions. It's not a club with a specific list of requirements an opinions.

    I can disagree with someone who calls her/himself a feminist and argue that they're not really a feminist. They will still think they are based no their own interpretation and opinions. Doesn't make me less of a feminist because as far as I'm concerned - I'll still be a feminist based on my understanding of feminism. It's not like I get to revoke membership...

    I think it's more of an age issue regarding differing opinions - just a guess.


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    #166
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    I don't see why it should, no one has greater insight into mens issues then men and no one better to represent them than those who have personal experience of it. The two are not opposing each other.

    The problem is is that that segregates "men's issues" from "women's issues", where often they coincide.


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    #167
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    The problem is is that that segregates "men's issues" from "women's issues", where often they coincide.
    which ones, genuine question, might help to resolve some issues.


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    #168
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    pharmaton wrote: »
    I don't see why it should, no one has greater insight into mens issues then men and no one better to represent them than those who have personal experience of it. The two are not opposing each other.
    I'm afraid often they are. Or would you have no problem with, for example, quotas in child custody, presuming you agree with the quota approach in general?

    Or anonymity for men accused or rape? Or that paternity fraud and false rape accusations should be criminal offences that carry stiff custodial sentences?


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    #169
    pharmaton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭pharmaton


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I'm afraid often they are. Or would you have no problem with, for example, quotas in child custody, presuming you agree with the quota approach in general?

    Or anonymity for men accused or rape? Or that paternity fraud and false rape accusations should be criminal offences that carry stiff custodial sentences?
    Where are feminists pushing these agendas?


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    #170
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    And yet again a thread on this subject has been hijacked by whataboutery. It stops now. No further discussion about this. If you want to start a thread about male equality and feminism, do so in the Gentleman's Club or Humanities. Any more of this and I'm handing out bans, simple as that. Back on topic. Thank you.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #171
    Ambersky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    I need feminism because it is still so difficult to speak from a woman's perspective.
    I need feminism because I would feel almost crazy and alone if I didnt have some other womens voices against the backdrop of antagonism I so often feel when the issue of womens rights comes up.


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    #172
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    I and my daughter need feminism cos at the age of 12 she is worried her breasts will grow to be too big and that no one will take her seriously as a result.


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    #173
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I need feminism to stop worrying about the height of my heels and my bra size. I need it to fight for proper child care and paternity leave so it will be easier for women to have some sort of career and social security in retirement.


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    #174
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Morag wrote: »
    I and my daughter need feminism cos at the age of 12 she is worried her breasts will grow to be too big and that no one will take her seriously as a result.

    Honestly, where is she getting these ideas? I never had thoughts like that at 12, or to be honest at any stage of my life. I wouldn't normally comment on these feminist threads, but this caught my attention.

    I am a 30 year old woman with big breasts. I work in a male dominated industry. I never seem to experience sexism. I never thought about how my gender would play a role in my life. I had an interest, I decided to follow it up and study it. Nobody has ever suggested that my intelligence is less than my male colleagues, or that because I have breasts that I should be taken less seriously than the men who work with me.

    I really think that feminism might not be the solution to the problem, at 12, she has clearly been influenced by somebody and feels that this is a problem. I think that you need to look at the influences in her life and start cutting out the rot. If I went home to my mother and stated that as a worry, I would be told pretty fast that it was stupid and why it was stupid. :(


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    #175
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    I need feminism so that ridiculous ideas like "gender quotas" are seen as ridiculous ideas.


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    #176
    Tigger99
    Registered Users Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭Tigger99


    Morag wrote: »
    I and my daughter need feminism cos at the age of 12 she is worried her breasts will grow to be too big and that no one will take her seriously as a result.

    I've seen time and time again attractive women not being taken seriously in the workplace because they are attractive, have big boobs etc. I heard the other day that this particular beautiful woman is in demand in different units because of what she looks like, never mind the fact that she is also good at what she does.

    I've been leered at because I've bigger than average boobs, and it's much more than a discreet side glance, almost like it's ok because of my body shape.

    I know another poster mentioned that she didn't come across it but I've seen it so many times.

    I'm curious Morag, how does your daughter realise this? Is it something that she's heard from her peers? It is so sad that she is worrying about this already tho, God love her, kids are really losing their innocence so young.


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    #177
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I was the first one to get breasts in my class. It's not comfortable to stand out in any way. Boys had similar issues with facial hair. This is not what about men point, I'm trying to say that issues with changing body are often developmental.


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    #178
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Tigger99 wrote: »
    I've seen time and time again attractive women not being taken seriously in the workplace because they are attractive, have big boobs etc. I heard the other day that this particular beautiful woman is in demand in different units because of what she looks like, never mind the fact that she is also good at what she does.

    I've been leered at because I've bigger than average boobs, and it's much more than a discreet side glance, almost like it's ok because of my body shape.

    I know another poster mentioned that she didn't come across it but I've seen it so many times.

    I'm curious Morag, how does your daughter realise this? Is it something that she's heard from her peers? It is so sad that she is worrying about this already tho, God love her, kids are really losing their innocence so young.

    It is from her peers she's 12 going on 13 and on the lower end of the age bell curve having just finished secondary school. The idea of what a bimbo and how girls who get bigger boobs get teased and derided is an issue which has come up.


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    #179
    MaxWig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭MaxWig


    Morag wrote: »
    It is from her peers she's 12 going on 13 and on the lower end of the age bell curve having just finished secondary school. The idea of what a bimbo and how girls who get bigger boobs get teased and derided is an issue which has come up.

    Was bullied myself as a young teenager, so I really appreciate your daughter's fears.

    Not sure how feminism can help with this one though.

    If it isn't boobs, it will be some kid's nose, or teeth, or clothes.

    I guess feminism has, and continues to help in terms of inclusivity, but I fear that 'being different' will remain a human challenge for ever


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    #180
    Tigger99
    Registered Users Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭Tigger99


    MaxWig wrote: »
    Was bullied myself as a young teenager, so I really appreciate your daughter's fears.

    Not sure how feminism can help with this one though.

    If it isn't boobs, it will be some kid's nose, or teeth, or clothes.

    I guess feminism has, and continues to help in terms of inclusivity, but I fear that 'being different' will remain a human challenge for ever

    Not quite the same. Have you found that whatever you were bullied about is still used to not take you seriously?


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    #181
    MaxWig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭MaxWig


    Tigger99 wrote: »
    Not quite the same. Have you found that whatever you were bullied about is still used to not take you seriously?

    Without going into it, I would say that it doesn't, but only because it is not visible.

    I would contend that I don't believe big boobs result in not being taken seriously. At least not as the general rule.


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