I need feminism because...

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:21pm

pharmaton wrote: »

I believe in equality for all and feminism does not conflict with egalitarian principles but concerns itself with female issues of equality specifically. Therein lies the difference.

How can you have only a female issue of equality. By definition equality issues affect both genders. Are you saying that where women are more equal then that isnt an issue that needs addressing by feminism? Does feminism only address issues of equality where women are disadvantaged? So what happens then if feminism achieves all of its aims and every area where women are perceived to be disadvantaged, they are no longer. Will we have an equal society then? Will feminism have achieved what it set out to do? Well if that's correct then we categorically say that feminism is not about equality because that would certainly not be an gender equal society.

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:21pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's fair enough. The only problem with this, I believe, is then that both genders would require representation in the interests of overall equality and this regrettably leads to an adversarial system.

I don't see why it should, no one has greater insight into mens issues then men and no one better to represent them than those who have personal experience of it. The two are not opposing each other.

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:22pm

pharmaton wrote: »

ah I see.

not sure I understand?

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:22pm

Playboy wrote: »

How can you have only a female issue of equality. By definition equality issues affect both genders. Are you saying that where women are more equal then that isnt an issue that needs addressing by feminism, Does feminism only address issues of equality where women are disadvantaged? So what happens then if feminism achieves all of its aims and every area where women are perceived to be disadvantaged, they are no longer. Will we have an equal society then? Will feminism have achieved what it set out to do? Well if that's correct then we categorically say that feminism is not about equality because that would certainly not be an gender equal society.

I didn't say that there were only female issues of equality. I said that feminism concerns itself with female issues of equality.

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:24pm

pharmaton wrote: »

if it means something different to you then feel free to discuss it

What's the point? None of us can agree on what it is anyway.

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:24pm

Playboy wrote: »

not sure I understand?

do you believe that feminism impinges on male rights or privilege?

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:24pm

pharmaton wrote: »

I didn't say that there were only female issues of equality. I said that feminism concerns itself with female issues of equality.

not sure that makes any difference to my post.

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:27pm

Playboy wrote: »

not sure that makes any difference to my post.

well then.

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:27pm

pharmaton wrote: »

do you believe that feminism impinges on male rights or privilege?

I don't know. Certainly some people who call themselves feminists would like to and try but then lots of other people who call themselves feminists disagree with them. I'm just confused

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:28pm

pharmaton wrote: »

well then.

I dont think you understand... "feminism only concerns itself with female issues of equality"... I said how can you only have a female issue of equality?

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:29pm

Playboy wrote: »

I dont think you understand... feminism only concerns itself with female issues of equality... I said how can you only have a female issue of equality?

can you not understand that?

Playboy · 25-06-2013 12:30pm

pharmaton wrote: »

can you not understand that?

I explained myself in the post.. this is getting tiresome. Is this how you normally have a discussion?

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:31pm

Playboy wrote: »

I explained myself in the post.. this is getting tiresome. Is this how you normally have a discussion?

I...

Issues that concern women? I'm doing my best to make it clear?

ciara1052 · 25-06-2013 12:40pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Well maybe you're not a feminist. You can't all be feminists and have such, frankly, incompatible views.

I don't have time for a full reply atm - but you keep missing what I'm trying to explain -

I'm a feminist based on my understanding of feminism. Up until my mid teens I ignored the entire issue (because feminism translated as I hate men/agenda of some sort).

There are a lot of people who call themselves feminists with different views/opinions. It's not a club with a specific list of requirements an opinions.

I can disagree with someone who calls her/himself a feminist and argue that they're not really a feminist. They will still think they are based no their own interpretation and opinions. Doesn't make me less of a feminist because as far as I'm concerned - I'll still be a feminist based on my understanding of feminism. It's not like I get to revoke membership...

I think it's more of an age issue regarding differing opinions - just a guess.

GalwayGuy2 · 25-06-2013 12:40pm

I don't see why it should, no one has greater insight into mens issues then men and no one better to represent them than those who have personal experience of it. The two are not opposing each other.

The problem is is that that segregates "men's issues" from "women's issues", where often they coincide.

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:44pm

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

The problem is is that that segregates "men's issues" from "women's issues", where often they coincide.

which ones, genuine question, might help to resolve some issues.

The Corinthian · 25-06-2013 12:46pm

pharmaton wrote: »

I don't see why it should, no one has greater insight into mens issues then men and no one better to represent them than those who have personal experience of it. The two are not opposing each other.

I'm afraid often they are. Or would you have no problem with, for example, quotas in child custody, presuming you agree with the quota approach in general?

Or anonymity for men accused or rape? Or that paternity fraud and false rape accusations should be criminal offences that carry stiff custodial sentences?

pharmaton · 25-06-2013 12:48pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm afraid often they are. Or would you have no problem with, for example, quotas in child custody, presuming you agree with the quota approach in general?

Or anonymity for men accused or rape? Or that paternity fraud and false rape accusations should be criminal offences that carry stiff custodial sentences?

Where are feminists pushing these agendas?

Wibbs · 25-06-2013 12:49pm

And yet again a thread on this subject has been hijacked by whataboutery. It stops now. No further discussion about this. If you want to start a thread about male equality and feminism, do so in the Gentleman's Club or Humanities. Any more of this and I'm handing out bans, simple as that. Back on topic. Thank you.

Ambersky · 25-06-2013 1:16pm

I need feminism because it is still so difficult to speak from a woman's perspective.
I need feminism because I would feel almost crazy and alone if I didnt have some other womens voices against the backdrop of antagonism I so often feel when the issue of womens rights comes up.

Morag · 25-06-2013 1:37pm

I and my daughter need feminism cos at the age of 12 she is worried her breasts will grow to be too big and that no one will take her seriously as a result.

meeeeh · 25-06-2013 2:07pm

I need feminism to stop worrying about the height of my heels and my bra size. I need it to fight for proper child care and paternity leave so it will be easier for women to have some sort of career and social security in retirement.

LegacyUser · 25-06-2013 5:00pm

Morag wrote: »

I and my daughter need feminism cos at the age of 12 she is worried her breasts will grow to be too big and that no one will take her seriously as a result.

Honestly, where is she getting these ideas? I never had thoughts like that at 12, or to be honest at any stage of my life. I wouldn't normally comment on these feminist threads, but this caught my attention.

I am a 30 year old woman with big breasts. I work in a male dominated industry. I never seem to experience sexism. I never thought about how my gender would play a role in my life. I had an interest, I decided to follow it up and study it. Nobody has ever suggested that my intelligence is less than my male colleagues, or that because I have breasts that I should be taken less seriously than the men who work with me.

I really think that feminism might not be the solution to the problem, at 12, she has clearly been influenced by somebody and feels that this is a problem. I think that you need to look at the influences in her life and start cutting out the rot. If I went home to my mother and stated that as a worry, I would be told pretty fast that it was stupid and why it was stupid.

sunshine and showers · 25-06-2013 8:18pm

I need feminism so that ridiculous ideas like "gender quotas" are seen as ridiculous ideas.

Tigger99 · 25-06-2013 8:56pm

Morag wrote: »

I and my daughter need feminism cos at the age of 12 she is worried her breasts will grow to be too big and that no one will take her seriously as a result.

I've seen time and time again attractive women not being taken seriously in the workplace because they are attractive, have big boobs etc. I heard the other day that this particular beautiful woman is in demand in different units because of what she looks like, never mind the fact that she is also good at what she does.

I've been leered at because I've bigger than average boobs, and it's much more than a discreet side glance, almost like it's ok because of my body shape.

I know another poster mentioned that she didn't come across it but I've seen it so many times.

I'm curious Morag, how does your daughter realise this? Is it something that she's heard from her peers? It is so sad that she is worrying about this already tho, God love her, kids are really losing their innocence so young.

meeeeh · 25-06-2013 9:34pm

I was the first one to get breasts in my class. It's not comfortable to stand out in any way. Boys had similar issues with facial hair. This is not what about men point, I'm trying to say that issues with changing body are often developmental.

Morag · 25-06-2013 11:26pm

Tigger99 wrote: »

I've seen time and time again attractive women not being taken seriously in the workplace because they are attractive, have big boobs etc. I heard the other day that this particular beautiful woman is in demand in different units because of what she looks like, never mind the fact that she is also good at what she does.

I've been leered at because I've bigger than average boobs, and it's much more than a discreet side glance, almost like it's ok because of my body shape.

I know another poster mentioned that she didn't come across it but I've seen it so many times.

I'm curious Morag, how does your daughter realise this? Is it something that she's heard from her peers? It is so sad that she is worrying about this already tho, God love her, kids are really losing their innocence so young.

It is from her peers she's 12 going on 13 and on the lower end of the age bell curve having just finished secondary school. The idea of what a bimbo and how girls who get bigger boobs get teased and derided is an issue which has come up.

MaxWig · 26-06-2013 1:03pm

Morag wrote: »

It is from her peers she's 12 going on 13 and on the lower end of the age bell curve having just finished secondary school. The idea of what a bimbo and how girls who get bigger boobs get teased and derided is an issue which has come up.

Was bullied myself as a young teenager, so I really appreciate your daughter's fears.

Not sure how feminism can help with this one though.

If it isn't boobs, it will be some kid's nose, or teeth, or clothes.

I guess feminism has, and continues to help in terms of inclusivity, but I fear that 'being different' will remain a human challenge for ever

Tigger99 · 26-06-2013 4:49pm

MaxWig wrote: »

Was bullied myself as a young teenager, so I really appreciate your daughter's fears.

Not sure how feminism can help with this one though.

If it isn't boobs, it will be some kid's nose, or teeth, or clothes.

I guess feminism has, and continues to help in terms of inclusivity, but I fear that 'being different' will remain a human challenge for ever

Not quite the same. Have you found that whatever you were bullied about is still used to not take you seriously?

MaxWig · 26-06-2013 5:04pm

Tigger99 wrote: »

Not quite the same. Have you found that whatever you were bullied about is still used to not take you seriously?

Without going into it, I would say that it doesn't, but only because it is not visible.

I would contend that I don't believe big boobs result in not being taken seriously. At least not as the general rule.

clairefontaine · 26-06-2013 5:12pm

Adolescents can be cruel. When you are developing you get your bras snapped, you get it undone by the boy sitting behind you, or teased about your rack, blah blah blah, but really only the scummiest of the boys will do this. But then the girls also can make each other feel inadequate.

Not sure if feminism will solve this, hasn't so far.

However, we can blame feminism for those incidents when 6 year old boys get disciplined for sexual harassment for things like a stolen kiss in the playground or because someone says he looked at her behind.

Greer wrote the female eunuchs, heh. Now everyone is one.

If feminists had any courage, they'd tackle one of the primary root causes of poverty and that is missing fathers, but they don't want to do that, because they want to remain a special interest group, not focused on the family or hard issues, but these frivolities about people staring at your boobs.

Tigger99 · 26-06-2013 5:26pm

MaxWig wrote: »

Without going into it, I would say that it doesn't, but only because it is not visible.

I would contend that I don't believe big boobs result in not being taken seriously. At least not as the general rule.

That's good

(about the thing not being visible)

You don't have to believe my experiences, or the ones I've noticed, not too bothered, I know they are true.

They get annoying tho. I did ask one guy to look me in the eye and listen to me instead of staring at my chest (which was well covered before some smartarse thinks I have them on show, tho actually it shouldn't matter if I did, but I digress). But I couldn't do that regularly as it would be seen as aggressive- even tho I had a point!

MaxWig · 26-06-2013 5:39pm

Tigger99 wrote: »

That's good (about the thing not being visible)

You don't have to believe my experiences, or the ones I've noticed, not too bothered, I know they are true.

They get annoying tho. I did ask one guy to look me in the eye and listen to me instead of staring at my chest (which was well covered before some smartarse thinks I have them on show, tho actually it shouldn't matter if I did, but I digress). But I couldn't do that regularly as it would be seen as aggressive- even tho I had a point!

I never referred to believing your experience.
But I can tell they are obviously still very raw.

I think its dangerous to view our own, personal experiences as general rules.

I would add, that as a man, I will probably notice when a woman has big boobs, although I couldn't be sure.

My own personal view, is that I couldn't care less what size a woman's breasts are.

eviltwin · 26-06-2013 5:43pm

I have large breasts, I'm a casual runner. Sexist abuse regarding my breasts is a regular occurance when I'm out running. I've no doubt if my breasts were smaller it wouldn't happen. None of the women I know who run the same route have ever been hassled.

Tigger99 · 26-06-2013 5:48pm

MaxWig wrote: »

I never referred to believing your experience.
But I can tell they are obviously still very raw.

I think its dangerous to view our own, personal experiences as general rules.

I would add, that as a man, I will probably notice when a woman has big boobs, although I couldn't be sure.

My own personal view, is that I couldn't care less what size a woman's breasts are.

Lol, they aren't raw and I'm not viewing only personal experiences as general rules. Patronising much?

I stated my experiences. I've witnessed time and time again a presumption that an attractive woman will not be an intelligent one. I've never once seen the same happen to a man.

MaxWig · 26-06-2013 5:52pm

Tigger99 wrote: »

Lol, they aren't raw and I'm not viewing only personal experiences as general rules. Patronising much?

I stated my experiences. I've witnessed time and time again a presumption that an attractive woman will not be an intelligent one. I've never once seen the same happen to a man.

Sorry - didn't mean to patronise.
And perhaps this is just invisible to me, I accept that.

Personally, I can admit to having been preoccupied with the features of a given woman. This happens me from time to time.

But I never made the link to stupidity. And I can't even conceptualise it.
But, I know that doesn't mean it doesn't happen

IvyTheTerrible · 27-06-2013 8:50am

eviltwin wrote: »

I have large breasts, I'm a casual runner. Sexist abuse regarding my breasts is a regular occurance when I'm out running. I've no doubt if my breasts were smaller it wouldn't happen. None of the women I know who run the same route have ever been hassled.

I don't have big boobs but I do get hassled about my arse.
I think the sort of people who shout things at random strangers can always find something to abuse them about.

kate.m · 27-06-2013 5:06pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

If feminists had any courage, they'd tackle one of the primary root causes of poverty and that is missing fathers, but they don't want to do that, because they want to remain a special interest group, not focused on the family or hard issues, but these frivolities about people staring at your boobs.

...how do you tackle that? Like if someone doesn't want to be involved do you make them? Where they're being prevented from being involved would be addressed via law changes I presume, maybe more straight forward. General question - just seems really difficult (not that I'm saying it shouldn't be tackled)

clairefontaine · 27-06-2013 5:08pm

I don't know. I'm not a political activist or strategist. But the roots of poverty for women and children are a far bigger problem than someone staring at my cleavage. Or not staring at it.

eviltwin · 27-06-2013 5:13pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't know. I'm not a political activist or strategist. But the roots of poverty for women and children are a far bigger problem than someone staring at my cleavage. Or not staring at it.

Its all relative isn't it. Of course I know feminism has bigger issues to deal with that gob****es who yell abuse at me but that doesn't make it any easier when you have to hear it. I know its minor compared to a woman who is desperate to have her childs father in its life but its still a hassle I could live without.

clairefontaine · 27-06-2013 5:22pm

I'm sorry but it doesn't have much bigger issues. It should, but it doesn't. It is a frivolous, divisive, Marxist movement that loves government and takes no responsibility for what it has done to the family.

You know why it can't go after missing dads, me of the main causes of poverty? Because for decades it told both men and women that men were redundant. So there you go ladies, that is what happens. Do you think feminism wants to turn around now and say they were wrong, that they'd do need men?

I doubt it. So it would rather gap on about the male gaze and objectification and other upper middle class white girl problems.

mariaalice · 27-06-2013 5:23pm

This is slightly off topic, for all he people who think feminism is not relevant in the Western world....have a look at some of the treatment meted out to Julia Gillard the Australian prim minister, some of it was solely because she was a woman..she was even asked/shouted at ....is your partner Gay!!

eviltwin · 27-06-2013 5:24pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm sorry but it doesn't have much bigger issues. It should, but it doesn't. It is a frivolous, divisive, Marxist movement that loves government and takes no responsibility for what it has done to the family.

You know why it can't go after missing dads, me of the main causes of poverty? Because for decades it told both men and women that men were redundant. So there you go ladies, that is what happens. Do you think feminism wants to turn around now and say they were wrong, that they'd do need men?

I doubt it. So it would rather gap on about the male gaze and objectification and other upper middle class white girl problems.

Sorry claire but the only person to blame for dead beat dads are the dead beats themselves but yet again its always everyone else fault. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

MaxWig · 27-06-2013 5:26pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Sorry claire but the only person to blame for dead beat dads are the dead beats themselves but yet again its always everyone else fault. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

I'd have to agree with Claire on this to some extent.

'Dead-beat Dad' is a derogatory term, for a very vague group.

I find it very offensive.

MaxWig · 27-06-2013 5:29pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Sorry claire but the only person to blame for dead beat dads are the dead beats themselves but yet again its always everyone else fault. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

And to pursue your reasoning...can we assume that the single mother with 6 kids should just keep her gob shut about struggling to feed them.

After all, she is personally responsible

mariaalice · 27-06-2013 5:33pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm sorry but it doesn't have much bigger issues. It should, but it doesn't. It is a frivolous, divisive, Marxist movement that loves government and takes no responsibility for what it has done to the family.

You know why it can't go after missing dads, me of the main causes of poverty? Because for decades it told both men and women that men were redundant. So there you go ladies, that is what happens. Do you think feminism wants to turn around now and say they were wrong, that they'd do need men?

I doubt it. So it would rather gap on about the male gaze and objectification and other upper middle class white girl problems.

So by your logic men must be made feel needed ( nothing wrong with that by the way ) or woman must be in a dependant position in order for fathers to be a involved in their children's lives, what about being involved in your children lives because you have a moral and legal responsibility to look after your children or what about doing it out of love.

clairefontaine · 27-06-2013 5:35pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Sorry claire but the only person to blame for dead beat dads are the dead beats themselves but yet again its always everyone else fault. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Sorry but no. Divorce sky rocketed in the 70s after the aggressive advancement of feminism.

It is most definitely partially responsible for the ruination of the family.

And it it still hanging onto its partisanship, special interest victim status, to get a wider perspective on family and familys relationship with employment etc.

B0jangles · 27-06-2013 5:36pm

Did a feminist steal your bicycle when you are a kid or something Claire?

B0jangles · 27-06-2013 5:44pm

This seems kind of appropriate at this juncture:

http://vimeo.com/64941331

MaxWig · 27-06-2013 5:46pm

B0jangles wrote: »

This seems kind of appropriate at this juncture:

http://vimeo.com/64941331

So inappropriate. haha

Funny though

I need feminism because...

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