B&I Lions v Wallabies, Match Thread, Sat June 22, 1105am

Swiwi.

Dan Lydiate

Forgetting UMSE & RW's tit for tat, here is how GAGR rated the 2 sides.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/player-ratings-wallabies-vs-british-lions-first-test/

Tox56

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Forgetting UMSE & RW's tit for tat, here is how GAGR rated the 2 sides.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/player-ratings-wallabies-vs-british-lions-first-test/

Bit harsh on Heaslip, especially compared to Croft

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Forgetting UMSE & RW's tit for tat, here is how GAGR rated the 2 sides.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/player-ratings-wallabies-vs-british-lions-first-test/

Harsh on Heaslip and OTT on North (who I think played a big part in the second Aussie try by coming out of his line to hit a second row with Falou outside him)

Hagz

In terms of back-three I think things are fairly equal whilst being quite different. Both back-threes contain strong strike runners and finishers, but Australia's back-three is much more potent in the counter attack and in loose play. George North is the only real threat we have coming on the counter.

Will Genia is clearly a much much better scrum-half than anyone we have to offer, but aside from that, we trump them in pretty much every other aspect. Their midfield has been terribly weakened, our goal-kicker is probably the best on the planet, although their back-row fronted up, there's no doubt that we have the better back-row, especially in depth. And our front-five is better too.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Hagz wrote: »

In terms of back-three I think things are fairly equal whilst being quite different. Both back-threes contain strong strike runners and finishers, but Australia's back-three is much more potent in the counter attack and in loose play. George North is the only real threat we have coming on the counter.

Will Genia is clearly a much much better scrum-half than anyone we have to offer, but aside from that, we trump them in pretty much every other aspect. Their midfield has been terribly weakened, our goal-kicker is probably the best on the planet, although their back-row fronted up, there's no doubt that we have the better back-row, especially in depth. And our front-five is better too.

Ya pretty much, the Lions have better players in most departments.

My biggest concern is Gatland playing into the hands of Australia by playing the likes of Phillips who directly negates the impact of players like BOD, Sexton and North

Buer

Given how Halfpenny has kicked this tour, it really is remarkable that he wasn't a front line goal kicker for the first few years of his career.

When he was selected for the last Lion's tour, he wasn't even mentioned as an option for the kicks at goal. Rhys Priestland was the preferred kicker for Wales going into last year's 6N. The lad wasn't even first choice kicker for Cardiff last season!

justsomebloke

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Ok so start with the backs, which Australian players are better than the Lions backs ?


You said they have better players.... what players in the Australian squad are superior to their Lions counterparts? Can you actually answer that question because if you can't it's going to be very hard to take your opinion seriously in future

Don't try and dance around the point

Rightwing wrote: »

Lol,,,I don't want you taking my opinion seriously.

enough of the sniping between the 2 of you. Please don't comment on each others posts for the rest of the lion tour or you will be banned

WorldRugby99

lions have in depth talent in many areas,as you would expect with 4 nations.Aussies dont have that kind of reserve strength particularly up front. aussies are missing david pocock(2nd best 7 to mccaw in the world),scott higginbotham,lock timani and hooker polota-nau
4 key first choice forwards.
Hooper,Genia,Horwill,beale,Folau,Ioane are all top drawer for me and likes of ashley-cooper pretty underrated by most. Is it as strong as the aussie teams of the 90s who won 2 world cups? no-but lets not forget aussies are ranked above wales,england,ireland etc for a good reason,and while we all hype up our own domestic players,we shouldnt forget aussies are pretty good too.they could and probably should have won yesterday despite all the injury disruptions.They have genuine matchwinners in genia,folau and beale(apart from his kicking obviously!). you could throw quade cooper in too possibly not that they will pick him.

.ak

Wallabies by more than 7

Buer wrote: »

Given how Halfpenny has kicked this tour, it really is remarkable that he wasn't a front line goal kicker for the first few years of his career.

When he was selected for the last Lion's tour, he wasn't even mentioned as an option for the kicks at goal. Rhys Priestland was the preferred kicker for Wales going into last year's 6N. The lad wasn't even first choice kicker for Cardiff last season!

Yeah. Although, not taking anything away from 1/2penny's kicking, but am I over stating it in saying he's only really become this good in the last 6 months at kicking? His stats in the pro12 were always just ok weren't they?

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Yeah. Although, not taking anything away from 1/2penny's kicking, but am I over stating it in saying he's only really become this good in the last 6 months at kicking? His stats in the pro12 were always just ok weren't they?

All Welsh players are just OK at everything in the Pro 12 it seems though.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

All Welsh players are just OK at everything in the Pro 12 it seems though.

In fairness he was joint first in the golden boot this year

Pudsy33

Tox56 wrote: »

In fairness he was joint first in the golden boot this year

He was second

Bridge93

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

So you can't name any players on the Australian team (bar Genia) that are better? Despite saying that the Lions have inferior players?

Folau better than Cuthbert, Ioane arguably as good if not better than North, Lealiifano is better than Davies (shame we didn't see him), Hooper than Warburton, Mowen than Croft, Moore than Youngs. All marginal and only my opinion but they do have better players in some positions.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Bridge93 wrote: »

Folau better than Cuthbert, Ioane arguably as good if not better than North, Lealiifano is better than Davies (shame we didn't see him), Hooper than Warburton, Mowen than Croft, Moore than Youngs. All marginal and only my opinion but they do have better players in some positions.

Ya I'd more or less agree with all that. They certainly do have better players in some positions, i think overall though the Lions have better players to pick from (even if some of them are not picked in the test side)

[Jackass]

Hippo wrote: »

I genuinely cannot believe some of the criticism of Sexton's performance to be found further up the thread. Bizarre.

Now that he's no longer a Leinster player, I think it's fair to say we can all finally admit that he's sh*t. :pac: Nah, Sexton is head and shoulders above any other 10 in Northern Hemisphere, with the possible exception of Wilkinson, but he was poor by his standards. He just didn't run the game like we all know he can and perhaps expect of him so much.

He was absolutely smoked for the second try, I'm not sure I've ever seen Sexton so flat footed in defence before in my life. Maybe the nerves and the occasion got to him, but I reckon we'll see a higher level from him in next test. Undroppable on this tour though.

Regarding the game, other than getting that vital first win under their belt, I don't think there'll be too much whooping and hollering in the Lions camp this week - they got some nice individual scores, cuthbert to be fair was straight off the training ground and was great to see from Gatland. But overall, Lions very lucky that Oz lost a kicker and that replacement kickers were poor and really, all other things being equal, didn't deserve the win imo.

Much to improve on.

neilmulvey

[Jackass] wrote: »

Now that he's no longer a Leinster player, I think it's fair to say we can all finally admit that he's sh*t. :pac: Nah, Sexton is head and shoulders above any other 10 in Northern Hemisphere, with the possible exception of Wilkinson, but he was poor by his standards. He just didn't run the game like we all know he can and perhaps expect of him so much.

He was absolutely smoked for the second try, I'm not sure I've ever seen Sexton so flat footed in defence before in my life. Maybe the nerves and the occasion got to him, but I reckon we'll see a higher level from him in next test. Undroppable on this tour though.

Regarding the game, other than getting that vital first win under their belt, I don't think there'll be too much whooping and hollering in the Lions camp this week - they got some nice individual scores, cuthbert to be fair was straight off the training ground and was great to see from Gatland. But overall, Lions very lucky that Oz lost a kicker and that replacement kickers were poor and really, all other things being equal, didn't deserve the win imo.

Much to improve on.

Bit harsh on the try. I thought Sexton was trying to show Folau on the outside and didnt realise there was a few front rowers inside him and not a few backs. He got burned by a quality step from a winger with serious pace. Not the first and wont be the last.

Also, Sexton is a better player then Wilkinson, kicking aside.

interlooter

Wallabies by more than 7

i've a bit of a poser for you rules gurus.
just before halftime the lions were attacking the wallaby line and davies was tackled just shy of the line by genia
time 58.35
on this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt7OkVn4CWc
genia gets himself into the wrong side of the ruck and interferes with the recycle.
from memory, barnes on sky was calling for a red card!
result was a lions penalty that halfpenny missed.
a club memeber that used to play professionally insisted that genia was legal as he was the tackler, whereas the rest of us were calling for a yellow card for deliberate unsporting behaviour in the red zone.
pollock gives the penalty for off feet at the ruck, but doesn't say who
lions players seem to call for the card and are bemused by the lack of one.

it's hard to see exactly what happened, but if genia released davies and somehow got through the lions clearers piling in then he must be able to thwart the laws of physics.
thoughts please.

DDC1990

Wallabies by less than 7

interlooter wrote: »

i've a bit of a poser for you rules gurus.
just before halftime the lions were attacking the wallaby line and davies was tackled just shy of the line by genia
time 58.35
on this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt7OkVn4CWc
genia gets himself into the wrong side of the ruck and interferes with the recycle.
from memory, barnes on sky was calling for a red card!
result was a lions penalty that halfpenny missed.
a club memeber that used to play professionally insisted that genia was legal as he was the tackler, whereas the rest of us were calling for a yellow card for deliberate unsporting behaviour in the red zone.
pollock gives the penalty for off feet at the ruck, but doesn't say who
lions players seem to call for the card and are bemused by the lack of one.

it's hard to see exactly what happened, but if genia released davies and somehow got through the lions clearers piling in then he must be able to thwart the laws of physics.
thoughts please.

Genia was legal, made the tackle the released and got to his feet.

The problem was the first man in the counter-ruck who went over the ball on his knees.

neilmulvey

interlooter wrote: »

i've a bit of a poser for you rules gurus.
just before halftime the lions were attacking the wallaby line and davies was tackled just shy of the line by genia
time 58.35
on this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt7OkVn4CWc
genia gets himself into the wrong side of the ruck and interferes with the recycle.
from memory, barnes on sky was calling for a red card!
result was a lions penalty that halfpenny missed.
a club memeber that used to play professionally insisted that genia was legal as he was the tackler, whereas the rest of us were calling for a yellow card for deliberate unsporting behaviour in the red zone.
pollock gives the penalty for off feet at the ruck, but doesn't say who
lions players seem to call for the card and are bemused by the lack of one.

it's hard to see exactly what happened, but if genia released davies and somehow got through the lions clearers piling in then he must be able to thwart the laws of physics.
thoughts please.

well he clearly tried to play the ball when he was on the ground. Should have been yellow. Warburton seemed to consult O'Connell about what to do with the penalty. If POC is out of next weeks game is Warburton going to ring him every time a decision needs to be made?

Edit - Genia's left knee is on Davies' shoulder so he is not supporting his own weight.

Beery Eyed

DDC1990 wrote: »

Genia was legal, made the tackle the released and got to his feet.

The problem was the first man in the counter-ruck who went over the ball on his knees.

So under that interpretation any tackler can stand up & play the ball at the back of an oppositions ruck? Of course not, the breakdown would be a mess. The ruck was formed so he had to roll away from the ball. Not only did he not do that, but he actively plays the ball. As obvious a penalty as you'll ever see, and since it was 2 meters out & cynical it should have been yellow

Taco Corp

Dan Lydiate

Beery Eyed wrote: »

So under that interpretation any tackler can stand up & play the ball at the back of an oppositions ruck? Of course not, the breakdown would be a mess. The ruck was formed so he had to roll away from the ball. Not only did he not do that, but he actively plays the ball. As obvious a penalty as you'll ever see, and since it was 2 meters out & cynical it should have been yellow

The tackler can play the ball once he has got to his feet and can come from any direction. If a ruck had formed then he would not be able to play the ball as he would be penalised for hands in the ruck. You just don't see it that often because in most cases, players from the tackled players side are there quick enough to clear the tackler out or players from both sides have arrived to form a ruck.

So Genia was initlally legal, it was the other Aussie players that then went of their feet once the ruck was formed. At least that's my interpretation.

Buer

Some ridiculous opinions on Sexton. I'm watching the second half again. These are his interventions in the second half. I don't know what game his critics were watching but it wasn't the Lions.

44 minutes, on turn over ball, sends a 50m kick in behind the Wallabies, with a good chase organised. Wallabies pinned in their own 22.

47 minutes, penalty to touch takes Lions from their own 10m line to Aussie 22 with no angle at all to work with.

48 minutes, disguises pass behind decoys to Cuthbert for try.

51 minutes, high hanging restart deep, forcing Beale to kick to touch and giving Lions possession well inside opposition half.

52 minutes, takes ball flat from line out, feeds Davies coming back on angle on crash ball, brings play over gain line.

56 minutes, cross field, huge hanging kick to North that Lions win back and move from their own 22 into oppo half. On resulting ruck, spins it wide on mismatch and only a forward touch spoils a great try chance.

59 minutes, dink over top in middle of pitch, runner is taken out, possession turned over.

61 minutes, hanging restart drops perfectly on edge of 22. Australia forced to bring back in. Australia have to send downfield, Sexton garryowens, Genia beats Halfpenny in air, kicks it back. Sexton sees gap, chips defence and gathers before offloading to support, bringin Lions up to the 22. Spins it wide, Aussies forced to concede penalty. 3 points to the Lions.

69 minutes Deep restart, forces Australia to kick to touch giving Lions possession midway between 10m and 22m.

70 minutes, huge garryowen deep into opposition 22, panic ensues, Lions have time to get multiple chasers and hold up maul, 5m scrum.

75 minutes, 22 drop out goes long, decent chase, Australia possession well inside their own half.

Beery Eyed

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

The tackler can play the ball once he has got to his feet and can come from any direction. If a ruck had formed then he would not be able to play the ball as he would be penalised for hands in the ruck. You just don't see it that often because in most cases, players from the tackled players side are there quick enough to clear the tackler out or players from both sides have arrived to form a ruck.

So Genia was initlally legal, it was the other Aussie players that then went of their feet once the ruck was formed. At least that's my interpretation.

You're right in all of the above, but the second part is what happened in this case so it was illegal. A number of Lions players are there immediately to form the ruck, but Genia still plays the ball & disrupts the possession deliberately. There's no doubt about the penalty. It was given immediately & commentators on Oz TV knew it was lucky not to be a yellow since it certainly stopped a try scoring opportunity

jamiedav2011

Hippo wrote: »

I genuinely cannot believe some of the criticism of Sexton's performance to be found further up the thread. Bizarre.

Yes, but you have to take into account who the criticism was delivered by. Not exactly credible.

irishbucsfan

Beery Eyed wrote: »

So under that interpretation any tackler can stand up & play the ball at the back of an oppositions ruck? Of course not, the breakdown would be a mess. The ruck was formed so he had to roll away from the ball. Not only did he not do that, but he actively plays the ball. As obvious a penalty as you'll ever see, and since it was 2 meters out & cynical it should have been yellow

On this note (and given the tackler cannot be offside which is the rule) who remembers the game a little while ago, think it was Wales v someone a couple of years back? When a tackler did exactly this leading to a try?

I know that is very vague, but my memory is brutal.

sydthebeat

Wallabies by more than 7

the penalty in this incident was obviously for palu going over the ball and supporting his weight on his hands....

you can hear pollock saying "off feet"

Lyaiera

I've just read this page of the thread. I came here to say I now understand why the Leinster lads are so in awe of Sexton and I can't believe people are saying he played poorly. The Irish lads on the pitch, POC, BOD and Heaslip were all poor in attack. BOD showed a few bits of ambition but nothing they tried came to anything. They were all decent in defence, but to me it looks like Gatland has assembled a bunch of showboats who perform on their national team but when they don't have support around them are poor. Sexton was fantastic, showed control of the game from the boot and passing like ROG on his best of days. (And that's not inter provincial rivalry showing through. I honestly thought Sexton's kicking was like he had taken a masterclass from O'Gara on the days Munster beat teams they had no right to beat.)

There was lots of individual talent, but the Lions looked like a touring team. A bunch of lads on the piss and no clue about who was standing next to them. The only time I saw true team behaviour was between BOD and Sexton. BOD is a class act and can do this all the time. Sexton down right impressed me.

.ak

Wallabies by more than 7

Buer wrote: »

Some ridiculous opinions on Sexton. I'm watching the second half again. These are his interventions in the second half. I don't know what game his critics were watching but it wasn't the Lions.

Ah would'ya g'way with yer facts, Mr. Scientist...

Tox56

Lyaiera wrote: »

I've just read this page of the thread. I came here to say I now understand why the Leinster lads are so in awe of Sexton and I can't believe people are saying he played poorly. The Irish lads on the pitch, POC, BOD and Heaslip were all poor in attack. BOD showed a few bits of ambition but nothing they tried came to anything. They were all decent in defence, but to me it looks like Gatland has assembled a bunch of showboats who perform on their national team but when they don't have support around them are poor. Sexton was fantastic, showed control of the game from the boot and passing like ROG on his best of days. (And that's not inter provincial rivalry showing through. I honestly thought Sexton's kicking was like he had taken a masterclass from O'Gara on the days Munster beat teams they had no right to beat.)

There was lots of individual talent, but the Lions looked like a touring team. A bunch of lads on the piss and no clue about who was standing next to them. The only time I saw true team behaviour was between BOD and Sexton. BOD is a class act and can do this all the time. Sexton down right impressed me.

That's probably because the first time Phillips and Sexton started a game together was last week and this was the first game Davies and BOD had ever started as a partnership. They've been on tour for a while, but because of the way things have fallen (partiularly innthe centres) the backline isn't as familiar together as they would like. Having Bowe running lines off Sexton and BOD trailing Roberts would have made the backline look a lot more cohesive because the players would have been more familiar with each other.

For the centres in particular it would have been difficult, not only was it their first start together, BOD has been playing with boshers on the tour so far and Davies has been playing 13 more than 12. It was always going to be difficult

BoardsMember

I'd ignore any comment suggesting that Sexton was poor in that game, such a viewpoint is either trolling, or borne of ignorance. There just is no way that you could say he had anything but a very good game. Very good decision making, restarts, passing, defence, etc. Even the try was as much down to having to defend the outside channel, and also very clever running taking advantage of slower inside players. A fantastic performance, up there with Genia's.