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People's beliefs - give and take? Or loose the hounds of atheism?
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ah, the English haute cuisine version rather than the Irish peasant dish;)
On a more serious note I have nothing against kale. There's a lovely simple Portuguese soup I make called Caldo Verde with kale and a good chorizo or linguica. Sautéed onions potatoes and garlic, a nice vegetable stock, and then add the kale and sausages, serious nom nom nom.
Who mentioned English?
Tsk tsk Nagirric - we had a Victorian era in Ireland too.
No - it's not a Mrs Beaton's take 7 stone of butter, a partridge and 3 scullery maids cookbook. It was an 1853 collection of pre-Famine Irish recipes by county- even had one for Cork's traditional Spiced Beef - gathered by an Irish antiquarian foodie in case they were lost to posterity.
Sadly, the book is not mine and it resides in the Highlands of Scotland with the lucky sod who bought a box of misc. books at an auction and found that little goldmine.0 -
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Bannasidhe wrote: »Tsk tsk Nagirric - we had a Victorian era in Ireland too.
Some had. Very few in Ireland would have noticed a Victorian era Bannasidhe, or had access to leeks for that matter. The vast majority of the population would have been trying to survive off their meager potato crop, while the leeks and all the other food produce were exported by greedy absentee landlords. A shameful episode in British history. 0 -
Did Scotland have a Victorian era too?!?
Yes. They even had it in Wales.Some had. Very few in Ireland would have noticed a Victorian era Bannasidhe, or had access to leeks for that matter. The vast majority of the population would have been trying to survive off their meager potato crop, while the leeks and all the other food produce were exported by greedy absentee landlords. A shameful episode in British history.
Ummm not really. I know that is what is taught in schools and is in the popular culture version of Irish history but...surprise surprise...it's not quite accurate.
Plenty of Irish living in Ireland were doing very well for themselves in the Victorian era. What we did have was a large (c4 million out of total pop. of c 8 million) peasant population living at subsistence levels. We also had a thriving middle class who would have been very aware of leeks and other non tuber relation vegetables. Or do you think every single lawyer, teacher, accountant, engineer, doctor, dentist, academic, merchant, large farmer etc were English?
We even had very rich Irish people - like those O'Connells in Kerry.0 -
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Tread softly, for you tread on our myths...
They're not myths endacl, they're historical facts.
The Irish revisionist movement gained prominence in the late 60s and early 70s after the NI "troubles" began. It became difficult for many of those in the Republic to deal with the issues in Northern Ireland and reconcile it with their traditional history. As Colm Toibin said "revisionism is precisely what our state needed when the North blew up and we joined the EC, in order to isolate Northern Ireland from us and our history, and improve relations with Britain. Foster (Roy Foster, author of Modern Ireland, 1600 - 1972) and his fellow historians became more useful, not for its truth, but for its politics".
That's the honest assessment of the myth versus history debate as it relates to Irish history, uncomfortable as it may be. Modern day Ireland is unfortunately one of the few countries where people seem embarrassed by their history, when they have much to be proud of. In somewhat typical Irish begrudging fashion, while those that fought for basic human rights are recognized around the world, sadly we would prefer to forget about them.0 -
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An earlier example of a (relatively, at least) wealthy Irish catholic was Edmund Rice.
They had to teach us about him in school, because it was a christian brothers school...
BTW they have this fine product available in the US. No longer connected with the order...
http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/06/drinking-the-bottom-shelf-christian-brothers-vs-brandy.htmlBannasidhe wrote: »In fact - all of the Great Emancipator's son were MPs ...
The Irish 'political dynasty' is nothing new!Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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BTW they have this fine product available in the US. No longer connected with the order...
FM I use that for cooking! great call. Cant beat it for $7 for a 750ml bottle, I've even had a swig a few times while in a bit of a state and its not that bad. One great thing about the US is cheap booze, a great selection of beers around $1/bottle.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »You disputed Irish people would know what leeks were ffs - that's what started this whole rigmarole off!
The facts just don't fit in with the 'we were all poor starving Irish Catholic tenant farmers' myth that passes for the history of the Victorian period in Ireland.
A myth that is as accurate as the 'sure we all paaaartied' myth is of our current situation.
Are we back full circle to leeks?
I stand by my assertion that most Irish would have not known a leek in the mid 19th century, especially given that when I left Ireland in the late 1980s not many would even then.. ffs, it was onions, carrots, parsnips, potatoes and cabbage, that was it.
Bannasidhe, I am a Republican, so I cherish the rights of all the nations' people equally whether Catholic, Protestant, dissenter or whatever. You know, that document the founding fathers of the Irish Republic stuck on the door of the GPO, and has been desecrated by so many of their so called followers. Although you may have read it into my post, I make no distinction between Catholic or Protestant aristocrats, they are all the same and will go to any lengths to protect their privilege.
I wouldn't call the Catholics you mentioned middle class, they were aristocrats. They would have been left alone by the British because not alone were they no threat, they were very useful in keeping the Irish in check (especially Daniel O'Connell). Protestant or Catholic aristocrats, with very few exceptions, had very little interest in the fate of those beneath them, a colonialist mindset.. and as you point out both were just as culpable as Westminster for the decimation of a population. Of all the facts relating to the great famine, the fact that food exports continued at the same rate during the years of the famine is the most damning.. and yes, disease killed more than starvation, but starving people do tend to be prone to disease. Of all the primary sources available form the time, I would tend to agree with the Earl of Clarendon who defined the British governments actions at the time as leading to "a policy of extermination".
History is surely the search for the truth regarding what happened in times before our own. The challenge with historians is what facts they chose to report, or ignore, and the spin they put on it. I know you don't like that statement but that's the reality. Roy Foster is the worst Irish historian in my opinion for leaving out facts that dont fit his "version" of Irish history. In that regard the statement "we were all poor starving Catholic tenant farmers" is far closer to the truth than "sure weren't their rich Catholics as well and they ate leeks". Of course there were rich Irish Catholics (and I did learn about them in history class in school, all of the ones you mentioned), but the vast majority of Irish in the centuries prior to and up to the years of the famine were extremely poor in an extremely rich in resources country, and disproportionately Catholic. In truth nobody knows, other than roughly, how many Irish died in the famine, or emigrated, or died in the attempt to emigrate.
.. and for the record, "sure we all partied" is closer to the truth than anything else that can be said about the economic situation in Ireland, its just another uncomfortable truth. As a frequent visitor to Ireland before, during, and after the boom, it was obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of economics that Ireland was in a massive real estate bubble and it was merely a matter of time before it burst. The population by and large were led by their noses by greedy bankers (who would have known better than anyone that the music would stop, but hey, lets partee). Literally everyone I met had property deals going, not just in Ireland but in Eastern Europe, nobody needed to do menial work anymore, sure this was a new economy. Its happened many times in history elsewhere, just happened to be independent Irelands first major boom and bust. The harsh reality is that the alternative to saving the banks was economic destruction for all. I would imagine Lenihan used the line "burn the bondholders" once in his meetings with the bankers, and was reminded of the social impact of the ATMs not opening on Monday morning (the same argument Hank Paulson used to Congress that sobered them up pronto). The gun that was pointing at Lenihan's head was the same gun Paulson pointed at the US congress and he got his way too. The big banks of today are the imperialists of the past, just more powerful as they are a united global cabal.0 -
Are we back full circle to leeks? I stand by my assertion that most Irish would have not known a leek in the mid 19th century, especially given that when I left Ireland in the late 1980s not many would even then.. ffs, it was onions, carrots, parsnips, potatoes and cabbage, that was it.
Bannasidhe, I am a Republican, so I cherish the rights of all the nations' people equally whether Catholic, Protestant, dissenter or whatever. You know, that document the founding fathers of the Irish Republic stuck on the door of the GPO, and has been desecrated by so many of their so called followers. Although you may have read it into my post, I make no distinction between Catholic or Protestant aristocrats, they are all the same and will go to any lengths to protect their privilege.
I wouldn't call the Catholics you mentioned middle class, they were aristocrats. They would have been left alone by the British because not alone were they no threat, they were very useful in keeping the Irish in check (especially Daniel O'Connell). Protestant or Catholic aristocrats, with very few exceptions, had very little interest in the fate of those beneath them, a colonialist mindset.. and as you point out both were just as culpable as Westminster for the decimation of a population. Of all the facts relating to the great famine, the fact that food exports continued at the same rate during the years of the famine is the most damning.. and yes, disease killed more than starvation, but starving people do tend to be prone to disease. Of all the primary sources available form the time, I would tend to agree with the Earl of Clarendon who defined the British governments actions at the time as leading to "a policy of extermination".
History is surely the search for the truth regarding what happened in times before our own. The challenge with historians is what facts they chose to report, or ignore, and the spin they put on it. I know you don't like that statement but that's the reality. Roy Foster is the worst Irish historian in my opinion for leaving out facts that dont fit his "version" of Irish history. In that regard the statement "we were all poor starving Catholic tenant farmers" is far closer to the truth than "sure weren't their rich Catholics as well and they ate leeks". Of course there were rich Irish Catholics (and I did learn about them in history class in school, all of the ones you mentioned), but the vast majority of Irish in the centuries prior to and up to the years of the famine were extremely poor in an extremely rich in resources country, and disproportionately Catholic. In truth nobody knows, other than roughly, how many Irish died in the famine, or emigrated, or died in the attempt to emigrate.
.. and for the record, "sure we all partied" is closer to the truth than anything else that can be said about the economic situation in Ireland, its just another uncomfortable truth. As a frequent visitor to Ireland before, during, and after the boom, it was obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of economics that Ireland was in a massive real estate bubble and it was merely a matter of time before it burst. The population by and large were led by their noses by greedy bankers (who would have known better than anyone that the music would stop, but hey, lets partee). Literally everyone I met had property deals going, not just in Ireland but in Eastern Europe, nobody needed to do menial work anymore, sure this was a new economy. Its happened many times in history elsewhere, just happened to be independent Irelands first major boom and bust. The harsh reality is that the alternative to saving the banks was economic destruction for all. I would imagine Lenihan used the line "burn the bondholders" once in his meetings with the bankers, and was reminded of the social impact of the ATMs not opening on Monday morning (the same argument Hank Paulson used to Congress that sobered them up pronto). The gun that was pointing at Lenihan's head was the same gun Paulson pointed at the US congress and he got his way too. The big banks of today are the imperialists of the past, just more powerful as they are a united global cabal.
So you dismiss those who did have wealth as aristocrats but fail to explain where these students in the three Queen's universities came from. Were they all aristocrats too?
Or were they the sons of Irish middle class Catholic families who not only survived the Famine - they survived the Famine with enough funds to send sons to University ? They were the middle class. Not 'rich' but certainly comfortable and there was enough of them to support 3 universities being built even as the Famine raged.
Ironic that you refer to historians ignoring facts and then ignore this very blatant fact.
The spin is that 'we' were all poor. No 'we' were not. We were like every other European country of the time with an aristocratic elite, a comfortable middle class and an underclass living in poverty. Few of either of the first two groups gave a flying blighted potato about the latter.
Many of the Irish middle class was falling over itself to disassociate from the peasantry.
That's the bit no one wants to talk about - how did your ancestors survive the Famine?
Yes- food was exported. But who were the wholesalers, the merchants, the shippers?
Irish people walked past starving Irish peasants just like Russian people walked past starving serfs and English people turned a blind eye to the conditions of the urban poor. And Scottish people walked past starving Scottish peasants - or did you not know that Scotland also had a Famine when their potato crop failed at the same time as it did in Ireland?
Estimates say 1 million people died in Ireland, two million emigrated. But the population was c8 million. That left 5 million ...
Doesn't really square with 'most' now does it.
It's is about time we faced up to the uncomfortable truths about our collective past and stopped with the BS rhetoric.
Time and time again we have tried to pretend that the awful things done to Irish people by other Irish people were not 'our' fault. It was the 'British', it was 'aristocrats', it was 'the church' - it was any one but 'us'. This is to ignore that all along the way Irish people were up to their oxters in it and quite happy to go along with it. Be it the shop keepers who put up their prices when there was a food shortage, the Irish policemen who aided evictions, the Irish shipping merchants who exported food, the Irish families who put their daughters into the laundries, the Irish developers who charged Irish people a fortune for substandard housing, the Irish bankers who lied to the State.... the list goes on and on and on....
We need less rhetoric and more honesty about our past. If you think this is 'revisionism' so be it - I think it is about time we grew up and started taking responsibility for our past and our future and stop whinging about what was 'done' to us by others and acknowledge our own faults as a people and a society.
Well I am sorry you didn't know what a leek was in the 1980s but please don't project your lack of culinary exposure across the board. Enough Irish people knew about far more exotic food stuffs like asparagus and samphire to support places like Arbutus Lodge (Ireland's first Michelin starred restaurant -first awarded in 1975) and Ballymaloe House (restaurant opened in 1964) - indeed the cookery school also opened in the 1960s - long before you left.0 -
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Can I just say that's got to be quote of the thread? Respect.Stereomaniac wrote: »Yeah. I thought that quote, more than any others in this thread is what stuck in my head afterwards.
Aww shucks
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