People's beliefs - give and take? Or loose the hounds of atheism?

Obliq

I live in small town rural Ireland, where my friends and neighbours attend mass, say "thanks be to god" a lot and generally like it that way. Usually I try and let people get on with it, so long as they leave my beliefs out of it, but today I have been (assaulted is too strong a word...) EXPOSED (better) to people's spiritual reckoning twice and I reacted to one of them. I'd love to react to the other as well. What stops me? Compassion for other people's sense of self, I think. Would that they should have the same compassion for mine.....

Examples:

1st: I attributed a particular name to a troublesome bird (a real bird, not a human) and was accused of causing bad energy that might hinder this bird's recovery (to what we would all like the bird to do). I kid you not. I wish I could be more specific, but it would locate me. When I said that I don't believe that my name calling will have any effect and that this person was giving a bird human attributes, I genuinely upset them. Person does not comprehend that they upset me with their accusation of "bad energy". Sigh.

2nd: Another local woman who has privately thanked me for my pro-choice postings on facebook and tentatively "likes" publicly some of my more outrageous comments (relative to the pervasive RCC "don't ask, don't tell" leanings of my other neighbours) has been recently posting up prayers to the virgin Mary. I can't knock it because I occasionally post up atheist memes, and a whole lot of pro-choice/take religion out of schools stuff that she more than likely doesn't fully agree with.

My quandary is that whilst I KNOW she has some double standards in what she says/what she believes, I am not going to point that out so as not to upset her or turn her away - Meantime the prayers roll in to my timeline and I'm increasingly annoyed at the public/private double standards. Jaysus. Am I being too nice?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=155438034644192&set=a.121121528075843.1073741828.121099328078063&type=1&ref=nf In case you wondered which prayer, or anything....

Galvasean

I'd be inclined to leave Example 2 be. It's just a prayer. No great harm in it.

As for Example 1... Eff that in the egg! Anyone who criticizes you for sending 'bad energy' to an avian dinosaur needs to be told to STFU and get back to the real world.

Obliq

Mmmhmm, pretty much told number 1 to get back up her tree alright. Annoyed that other people don't consider whether they're treading on people's beliefs though.....is it an atheist thing to be more considerate (being in the minority and maybe having to be a bit more thoughtful)?

Still though, number 2 worries me a little more tbh. It's probably that I've noticed her wavering between what she thanks me for, and fear of certain ostracism/hell if she ever publicises her beliefs herself. Quite happy for me to do so, but will never come out in support in a pub conversation for example, and indeed quite happy to post angel bollix from a pro-life supporter. Just feeling a little let down by that, but not to worry though eh?! Honestly though, if it wasn't for the subject matter, I'd say to her face that I feel a bit let down, is the thing. Seems I'm somewhat as scared of the social consequences as she is....

Seriously considering a nice hot heathen country to retire to (when I win the lotto of course) that I'm not emotionally invested in

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Obliq wrote: »

<...>Seems I'm somewhat as scared of the social consequences as she is....

Seriously considering a nice hot heathen country to retire to (when I win the lotto of course) that I'm not emotionally invested in

I don't have any answer, I just came in to say I think the question is right. Isn't it just as messy and awkward as you say?

FWIW, I can recall feeling a deep sense of alienation at the time of the 1986 Divorce referendum, which was decisively rejected a two-thirds no vote, and a deep desire to just go. It wasn't any sense of rebellion, or wanting to chance people, or anything. I just couldn't see the link between me and a political community who saw things that way.

And then you hear how there was no escape abroad. When that kind of gonzo result got reported abroad, if you were the only Irish guy in Ulan Bator, you'd have the locals expecting you to be able to explain what this yoke was all about.

It's less stifling now, but we just haven't found a common cause. The issue is, absolutely, how we mutually accommodate people with views that, formally at least, are utterly incompatible. But I suppose we need some sense of proportion. It's not like we're marching past each others houses wearing sashs and beating drums.

robindch

Obliq wrote: »

When I said that I don't believe that my name calling will have any effect and that this person was giving a bird human attributes, I genuinely upset them.

Been there many times. The way I deal with it at the moment is just politely to say something like "Popette, the world doesn't work that way" - the idea being to signal immediately that debate is a waste of time. Most woo-merchants in my experience seem to accept a comment like that without getting offended and they move on.

Obliq wrote: »

Meantime the prayers roll in to my timeline and I'm increasingly annoyed at the public/private double standards.

Her double-standards are her business. Assuming she's not trolling you, you'd best just ignore it (and just disable news items from her in fb), or more riskily, try defuse/deflate it with some mild humor. Embarrassing her in public by trying to debate her will alienate her pronto.

All the same, that statue's not quite what I'd have thought a first-century Palestinian bird would look like. And what's that goldy pillow thing on her head?

Obliq

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

It's less stifling now, but we just haven't found a common cause. The issue is, absolutely, how we mutually accommodate people with views that, formally at least, are utterly incompatible. But I suppose we need some sense of proportion. It's not like we're marching past each others houses wearing sashs and beating drums.

True enough! I just had a "last straw" moment yesterday when my own beliefs were dissed by a hippy :mad: THAT doesn't often happen, I can tell you. Also have possibly overdosed on sudofed and lemsip. You're totally right about the sense of proportion - I guess I have a tendency to feel things more acutely than some, and am properly disheartened by that sense of alienation re religious/reproductive matters in Ireland.

Got to say, I'm constantly asked by people from other countries about what's going on. Wouldn't hurt to be sounding off under some date palms with a G&T melting happily in the evening sun.....mmmm!

robindch wrote: »

Embarrassing her in public by trying to debate her will alienate her pronto.

Oh christ no, wasn't going to do that! I suppose I just hoped she'd become more comfortable about being pro-choice AND religious, but it seems that her conflict of interests has resolved itself. She's been converted, dammit! :mad:

All the same, that statue's not quite what I'd have thought a first-century Palestinian bird would look like. And what's that goldy pillow thing on her head?

Yes, not sure why she would need a giant pincushion, and she could do with some sun alright..


Thanks for taking the time to reply folks - wasn't really a question I suppose - more a cry for help from atheist friends! Note to self: Grow thicker skin. Again...

kylith

Re: the first one. I recommend laughing, quite a lot if possible. Don't forget to wipe away a tear when you're done, because that has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

magicbastarder

a bit of an aside, but prompted by the notion of sending bad energy; on the couple of occasions that i've had an unpleasant dream/nightmare where someone i know has died, it's considered bad form to mention it to them, and the reason it's considered impolite seems to be that it will hasten their death in reality.

Bannasidhe

Put me in mind of a Lesbian mystery tour/picnic I went on many years ago. I really only read the word 'picnic' and 5 of us pooled resources and decided on a gourmand adventure with champagne, pate, crab salad, strawberries, fried chicken etc etc (all made by my own slightly tanned hands I may add) which we dragged on to the bus in a giant 'eski' I brought home from Oz.

Eventually the tour bus pulled into a service station in the back of beyond where most of the rest of the tour went and bought various filled demi baguettes..

So, we get to the location of our 'mystery' picnic and drag Bannasidhe's Feast to a lovely grassy knoll, spread out the blankets, cushions etc (we really were on one) and I go to open the cooler box - travel champagne flutes poised for bubbly lubbly when I get told to wait...we have to go stand in a circle and chant summat or other and jump over summat else while emitting positive energy :eek:.

If I want to jump summat while emitting positive energy I'd go showjumping.

So myself and equally staunch atheist mate looked blankly at them and just sat there sipping champers while watching about 30 women engage in chanting/jumping and seeing if we could spot owt positive in the energy dept. We felt snorting loudly and pointing would have been rude. Heaven forfend we should be rude...

When they returned and declared the picnic open we had already consumed one bottle of champers and we were feeling positively energised about consuming the crab salad (we had already lashed into the pate) only to be loudly chastised by the organiser for not being spiritual and 'pagan' enough and we were bringing negative energy into the sacred space. FFS - two good friends quaffing bubbly and munching good homemade food lying on cushions in the leafy shade on a grassy knoll chatting and laughing is about as 'positive energy' as it gets..no jumping chants required.

Sometimes (!) my mouth has a tendency to act independently so I equally loudly pointed out that we were sitting in the sunshine (we had sunshine back then) quaffing champers and eating incredible food while the organiser and her cohort of chanting jumpers were now about to eat 'food' from an Irish rural garage... seemed to me we were the proper pagans. Then I offered her some crackers and dip.

Just because something is 'alternative' doesn't mean I have to conform...BS is still BS.

On the way home from our overnight stop in a mysterious location we filled the eski with ice, acquired some limes and had a G&T party down the back of the bus while the 'pagans' mumbled into their garage take-away coffees. :cool:

Mickeroo

Just unsubscribe to the person on facebook, nothing they do will ever show up in your newsfeed again.

iDave

How does the bad energy system work? Does it take into account changes to the English language over time.
For example if you called the bird 'gay' does the energy system recognise that as saying you think the bird is happy, which i presume would help its recovery.
Or has it modernised to recognise 'gay' as 'homosexual'. Now if this was a conservative bird it may of been offended therefore hindering it recovery

Bannasidhe

iDave wrote: »

How does the bad energy system work? Does it take into account changes to the English language over time.
For example if you called the bird 'gay' does the energy system recognise that as saying you think the bird is happy, which i presume would help its recovery.
Or has it modernised to recognise 'gay' as 'homosexual'. Now if this was a conservative bird it may of been offended therefore hindering it recovery

It's a mystery to me but I do recall commenting while watching the jumping chanting creation of 'good' energy that I knew for a fact that a lot of the chanting jumpers didn't have a good word to say about many of the other chanting jumpers and perhaps if they didn't act like c*nts towards each other they wouldn't feel the need to create 'positive' energy in the first place.

iDave

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's a mystery to me but I do recall commenting while watching the jumping chanting creation of 'good' energy that I knew for a fact that a lot of the chanting jumpers didn't have a good word to say about many of the other chanting jumpers and perhaps if they didn't act like c*nts towards each other they wouldn't feel the need to create 'positive' energy in the first place.

Oh those Lesbian pagans, will they ever learn

Bannasidhe

iDave wrote: »

Oh those Lesbian pagans, will they ever learn

I'm not hopeful.

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Put me in mind of a Lesbian mystery tour/picnic I went on many years ago. I really only read the word 'picnic' and 5 of us pooled resources and decided on a gourmand adventure with champagne, pate, crab salad, strawberries, fried chicken etc etc (all made by my own slightly tanned hands I may add) which we dragged on to the bus in a giant 'eski' I brought home from Oz.

I want to move to Cork and I want to go on picnics with you.

coffee_cake

I keep seeing "loose" and cringing before I realise that for once, it's been used correctly...

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

I want to move to Cork and I want to go on picnics with you.

I love picnics.

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I love picnics.

I haven't been on a picnic in aaaaaaaagggggggggggeeeeeeeeeessssssss. The last decent one involved Scotch eggs and pork pies whilst sheltering from torrential rain under a tree in Marley Park.

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

I haven't been on a picnic in aaaaaaaagggggggggggeeeeeeeeeessssssss. The last decent one involved Scotch eggs and pork pies whilst sheltering from torrential rain under a tree in Marley Park.

My last one was at a wind swept beach in East Cork - after we walked the dogs we sat in my ridiculously large car (child seats...:mad:) eating home made yummy stuff like potato salad with spring onions and bacon, Jamaican jerk chicken, egg mayo and fresh baked crusty rolls and sipping hot coffee as we watched the wind blow people along the promenade.

It was lovely.

I really do love picnics*.




*as long as I am firmly in charge of the catering.

Obliq

iDave wrote: »

How does the bad energy system work? Does it take into account changes to the English language over time.
For example if you called the bird 'gay' does the energy system recognise that as saying you think the bird is happy, which i presume would help its recovery.
Or has it modernised to recognise 'gay' as 'homosexual'. Now if this was a conservative bird it may of been offended therefore hindering it recovery

According to the person who believed I was causing "bad energy", the connotations of the name I called the bird would lead other people to take up the name and this would disincentivise (a word?) the bird from performing as we all wish. Obscure, I know. Sorry

Interestingly, my take on the name was one of respect for a life lived without giving a hoot what anyone thought of her. The name was Biddy (as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biddy_Early). So yes, you're onto something there iDave. Clearly, the energy system only takes account of what the accusing person/s believe, so if they hear "gay" as a derogatory term, then it's BAD ENERGY regardless of original intent. :pac:

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My last one was at a wind swept beach in East Cork - after we walked the dogs we sat in my ridiculously large car (child seats...:mad:) eating home made yummy stuff like potato salad with spring onions and bacon, Jamaican jerk chicken, egg mayo and fresh baked crusty rolls and sipping hot coffee as we watched the wind blow people along the promenade.

It was lovely.

I really do love picnics*.




*as long as I am firmly in charge of the catering.

Let's have a picnic! Somewhere near Cork, so Bann can do the catering! Although my potato salad is quite yummy too...

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My last one was at a wind swept beach in East Cork - after we walked the dogs we sat in my ridiculously large car (child seats...:mad:) eating home made yummy stuff like potato salad with spring onions and bacon, Jamaican jerk chicken, egg mayo and fresh baked crusty rolls and sipping hot coffee as we watched the wind blow people along the promenade.

It was lovely.

I really do love picnics*.




*as long as I am firmly in charge of the catering.

You can certainly cater mine.

OH has masses of allergies that mean I don't get to have nice food like egg mayo and potato salad. Now you have me considering dumping him so I can have a lovely picnic with everything I like.

Obliq

bluewolf wrote: »

I keep seeing "loose" and cringing before I realise that for once, it's been used correctly...

YES!! :cool:

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

According to the person who believed I was causing "bad energy", the connotations of the name I called the bird would lead other people to take up the name and this would disincentivise (a word?) the bird from performing as we all wish. Obscure, I know. Sorry

Interestingly, my take on the name was one of respect for a life lived without giving a hoot what anyone thought of her. The name was Biddy (as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biddy_Early). So yes, you're onto something there iDave. Clearly, the energy system only takes account of what the accusing person/s believe, so if they hear "gay" as a derogatory term, then it's BAD ENERGY regardless of original intent. :pac:

Funnily enough I currently find myself in the midst of a 'discussion' via email where I am firmly siding with a woman I usually have blazing rows with - the reason being those organising this years annual 'Lesbian' summer camp have taken to starting every email update with 'Hello Ladies'.

My usual sparring partner politely objected (in a humorous fashion) to being called a 'lady' and the connotations of that term.

The response was an email beginning 'Hello Laydeeze' which showed they rather missed the point of the objection and was also, imho, a tad rude to ignore and appear to dismiss out of hand a very valid objection to the undertones of a term like 'lady.'

I know the writers of the email (normally I am one of the organisers) don't 'get it' and have adopted a F off youse are all being too sensitive attitude - and they may have a point. On the other hand, a lot of the women involved have spent their lives trying to break free from the whole 'lady' and 'ladylike' BS and object to it's use in 'our' space. Nothing to do with 'energy' positive or negative and more to do with 'not this crap again.'

I think Biddy is a great name for a bird btw - also Obliq would I be correct to think that you are in fact attempting to aid Biddy while your 'spiritual adviser' is content to restrict her role to pointing out what you are doing wrong?

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

You can certainly cater mine.

OH has masses of allergies that mean I don't get to have nice food like egg mayo and potato salad. Now you have me considering dumping him so I can have a lovely picnic with everything I like.

Meh - Egg mayo give OH hives if the sun is shining and I have to seriously restrict my carb intake - I am flexible when it comes to the menu as long as the finished product is top quality.

kylith

OK. You, me, picnic. Deal? I'll bring the Dublin Bay Prawn Cocktail. And watching the carbs be damned!

Obliq

Brilliant - cheers me up no end to find other people being misunderstood and condescended to My lovely man has great fun whenever I get referred to as a "lady" (usually in the collective sense, as in "evening ladies") and always says "My woman is no lady!"

As for the bird - yes, I am exerting some damage limitation by being pragmatic and factual. My spiritual adviser (among many others) is IMO worrying unnecessarily and if ever there was a case to be made for causing "bad energy" it would be in dwelling on the negative side of things. Hmph.

Obliq

kylith wrote: »

OK. You, me, picnic. Deal? I'll bring the Dublin Bay Prawn Cocktail. And watching the carbs be damned!

Can I come too? I'll do a nice green salad with whatever's in the polytunnel when the time comes....

Hotblack Desiato

Obliq wrote: »

Let's have a picnic! Somewhere near Cork, so Bann can do the catering!

yeah yeah picnic schmicnic... will there be a Lesbian Mystery Tour??





and if they did find the g-spot in the end, can they give the rest of us a clue. tks.

legspin

kylith wrote: »

I haven't been on a picnic in aaaaaaaagggggggggggeeeeeeeeeessssssss. The last decent one involved Scotch eggs and pork pies whilst sheltering from torrential rain under a tree in Marley Park.

I f'kin love pork pies. There is summat you just can't get for love nor money here, a really decent pork pie. We irish have no real concept of what piggy goodness there is in them

Obliq

legspin wrote: »

I f'kin love pork pies. There is summat you just can't get for love nor money here, a really decent pork pie. We irish have no real concept of what piggy goodness there is in them

Mmm, lovely alright. But you can get them here, for money (quite a lot ) at our local farmer's market, made by a real, authentic English person! They are extremely nice. Hmm, Saturday tomorrow. This little piggy went to market...