Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Suicide and men.

  • 19-06-2013 5:40pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14 BobTheNihilist


    SUICIDE IS A word with which in today’s Ireland we are all too familiar. There can be few people who don’t know, either directly or indirectly, someone who has taken their own life in recent years, and we are frequently reminded of its presence via the media. As tragic as this is in all cases, it is especially so when it concerns a young person, and unfortunately Ireland appears affected more than most countries in Europe.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mens-health-suicide-ireland-948495-Jun2013/

    I'm gonna come right out and say it - i have attempted suicide several times in the past. I had a chance to do it with a gun once, a .22 rifle, but I couldnt go thru with it for some reason. Maybe I should have.

    How many more men in this country do we have to bury before there time?

    We men are ****e at talking about feelings with each other or even or loved ones, if we have any. Other guys thing youre bent or a wuss or a pussy or something. Instead were recession casualties - we have no jobs and no future so we spiral into despair.



    I found the Samartians helpful in the past. They're ok and it;s good to have an actual person on the end of a phone.
    Im not gonna tell anyone what to do with there life. But I guarantee you there are men out there who feel like ending it all the time..Ive been one of those men in the past and for all I know will be again in the future.
    I just feel overwhelmed sometimes.


Welcome!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.
«13456

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,902 ted1
    ✭✭✭✭


    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,247 shamrock55
    ✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

    Obviously there are things going on in peoples lives that are that bad and for the life of them they cant see a way out its pure dispair and hard to understand if your own life is all rosey


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 weldoninhio
    ✭✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think cancer is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

    I've changed a word in your original post. Do you think this is the same? It is because of attitudes like yours that more people don't talk about how they feel, and spiral and spiral until they don't see any option other than suicide.

    I've been suicidal, i've tried to kill myself, i've sat here and gone through the options of hanging, walking in front of a train, slashing wrists, etc. Its not something you just decide one day. Its months and months of depression and feeling down. Feeling like no-one cares, like no-one understands, that you can't tell people you feel suicidal because they'll think your "selfish" and tell you to man up.

    Depression is a disease, not a choice. And sometimes suicide/attempted suicide is a symptom. However extreme it may seem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,055 Mr.Fred
    ✭✭✭


    "A permanent solution to a temporary problem." It's becoming all to common alright and I wouldn't call it the selfish way out. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to be so low and helpless that you think ending your life is the only option. It just highlights how little the goverment invests in mental health. Op when you're feeling that low always reach out to someone first everyone needs a hand at some point these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 RainyDay
    ✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.
    What 'adventures' does Marie Fleming have yet to have?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 BerryBlue


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.


    I half love / half hate what your opinion is! On the one hand its great that you can't in any way fathom what its like or how it feels to be suicidal - not just suicidal but for the urge to be so strong to just not be here - that makes me a bit angry that someone like yourself can't empathise. But then again - if you have been there, and felt like that, its not something that you would wish someone could empathise with - you would spare your worst enemy that feeling. Its the worst thing to say to someone - get over it / could be worse/ pack a bag & travel a bit! If only it were that easy!

    Suicide is not for cowards - and it not selfish - for something to be selfish, one has to benefit - it just is what it is, a person so deeply unhappy/disconnected that they choose to not be here any longer.

    I'm glad the OP had the opportunity & didn't go through with it - for reasons it sounds like he doesn't even understand - but dude, there is a reason - if you were meant to go then you would have. But obviously you still have alot to learn from this planet. I hope you will one day soon get to the place where you think & feel that all your suffering has meant something because you have a deeper appreciation for life... you can pm me if you want? I've been there... don't ever want to be back there... but sometimes you have no choice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 BerryBlue


    Mr.Fred wrote: »
    "A permanent solution to a temporary problem." It's becoming all to common alright and I wouldn't call it the selfish way out. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to be so low and helpless that you think ending your life is the only option. It just highlights how little the goverment invests in mental health. Op when you're feeling that low always reach out to someone first everyone needs a hand at some point these days.

    I'm sorry, this will ruffle a few feathers because its become such a popular saying - 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' - I HATE this! Depression and being no longer able to bear it, is not 'temporary' - how long IS temporary? a week/month/ year - how about 5/10/15/20 years? - If you are 1/2/3/4/5 years suffering in excruciating depression - is that 'temporary' ? I love discussions on mental health/depression - but there are so many nonsensical sayings thrown about by people who don't know how it feels to be in that place where 'not being' is FAR more preferable to being.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion - you have yours, I have mine - yet can you truly have such a vehement opinion on something you have never experienced yourself? Think about it....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 sheikhnguyen
    ✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.


    A word to the wise, it's better to keep your mouth shut if you have no idea what you are talking about.
    The overwhelming majority of people who commit suicide don't do it to escape debt or something else trivial. They do it because they are very very ill.
    Your ignorance is only surpassed by the banality of your suggested "cures".

    OP - hang in there, hopefully you'll find your balance. just keep talking!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,902 ted1
    ✭✭✭✭


    My opinion is of personal experience of having to pick up the pieces afterwards and watching close friends and family deal with the aftermath.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 sheikhnguyen
    ✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    My opinion is of personal experience of having to pick up the pieces afterwards and watching close friends and family deal with the aftermath.

    mine too. that makes it even less excusable.


  • Advertisement


  • ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    An unhelpful comment made from a pedestal of privilege alas. It is so easy for the mentally and physically healthy to make such a comment without really understanding some of the depths things can go to for some people.

    Medical depression for example can lead people to a position so low that it strips away all the atrributes you have to make you privileged enough to be that judgemental.

    For such people it has nothing at all to do with cowardice but quite simply the inability to face anything at all. You reach points so low that bravery or cowardice simply are not factors that come into the decision at all.

    Still others reach a point in their life - such as someone I personally know who chose suicide - where they have been diagnosed with something that promises nothing but a very shortned life of pain and loss of all dignity - to the point where ones life will become nothing but a burden upon others as they will be forced to run around after them - clean up the messes caused by their own specific loses of human dignity - and much worse. Such people see suicide not only as the right option for them themselves - but as the best choice for those around them too.

    So your position declaring that "Nothing in life is that bad" is really a position based on a failure of knowledge or even imagination on just how bad it gets for some people. Certainly sweeping ones hand across the table and dismissing the entire subject as "cowardice" is as unhelpful as it is false.

    In fact it is even dangerous - murderously so - in that - as another user pointed out - deriding such people having such feelings is one of the reasons why they feel unable to seek assistence and solace in others. It makes them feel like everything is somehow a failing on their part and this in turn feeds back into the depressions and despairs they already feel. Rather we should point out the fact that this is not uncommon - there is nothing wrong with it - and people with those feelings should be happy and willing to come forward openly with them.

    That said I am all for our society doing it's absolute best to ensure that people reaching such positions ARE aware of their other options and ARE helped when they reach points so low that they see no other way out. Awareness needs to be raised on many issues from many angles in and around the subject of suicide as it has been but a lot more too.
    ted1 wrote: »
    My opinion is of personal experience of having to pick up the pieces afterwards and watching close friends and family deal with the aftermath.

    Yes because there is nothing wiser in this world than to extrapolate a vast generalisation off the back of a single personal anecdote.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 Crooked Jack
    ✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

    Yeah, why not just buy a motorbike. They're going two a penny. I mean, if your financial situation is so bad that you're thinking about suicide, what on earth is stopping you from buying a motor bike and taking a merry wee jaunt to Russia or Asia. Why not buy a rocket powered, solid gold motorbike that can drive on water and save yourself the expense of a flight.
    This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's akin to saying "why be depressed because your legs have been amputated, just grow new ones."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,533 iceage
    ✭✭✭


    OP, as suggested above, hang in there and keep talking. There are more and more people that you can get in contact with such as Pieta House, http://www.pieta.ie/ they have offices all over the place. Chin up and in the words of a very wise man "Don't let the bastards get you down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 eviltwin
    ✭✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.



    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.



    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.



    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc



    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.


    If only it were that easy. Depression is a mental illness. I've attempted suicide despite seeing the impact my cousin's suicide had on his family. You aren't logical when your depressed, your thinking is all warped, you become paranoid, you actually believe your not being here is better for everyone. You just can't deal with it or get over it as is often suggested, it takes a lot of time, patience, support and medical intervention.

    Your comments probably reflect what a lot of people think but its not helpful and can be counterproductive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,055 Emme
    ✭✭✭


    Ireland has always been a tough country for men, but it has been particularly bad in the last few years. Segregated education has made it difficult for men and women to communicate. We see each other as enemies rather than allies.

    I think that it is particularly difficult for men in rural areas. Emigration takes a bigger toll in the country than in cities because it's harder for people to meet. There are fewer things you can do free, and the drink driving laws means that it's easier to sit at home with a few cans than to go out. Drinking alone is dangerous for anyone who is suicidal.

    OP, all I can say is hang in there and use whatever services are at your disposal.

    Thank goodness suicide isn't stigmatised like before, but it's worrying that more people than ever are committing suicide.

    What can we in Ireland do to make things easier for people who are suicidal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,434 Ash.J.Williams
    ✭✭✭✭


    I think men are more than able to discuss their problems...I think once people realise somebody has mental issues they abandon them!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,662 The Black Oil
    CMod ✭✭✭✭


    There is that, alright.

    I don't think it's fair to say that people who take their own lives give no thought to others. I recall someone describing a suicide note that had been left saying the person had paid off the ESB bill, which may seem utterly irrelevant, but I guess in one way that perhaps the person was trying to think of others, if not the implications of what they were about to do.

    To say nothing in life is that bad is just nonsense, really. You have to understand that in a person's mind, the option of suicide may seem less painful than the life they are living.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,216 listermint
    ✭✭✭✭


    BerryBlue wrote: »
    Suicide is not for cowards - and it not selfish - for something to be selfish, one has to benefit



    Great choice of words actually, that line somes it up. I used to think that people who took this avenue out were selfish. But i have read alot and looked into the background of depression and my mind has whole heartedly changed. Thankfully i have no intimate knowledge of the subject and havent directly experienced a loved one taking up the final option. I certainly wouldnt wish it upon anyone.

    There was a recent article from a young gaa keeper posted in the journal and it made for moving reading. frankly i think that his words should be distributed in schools and discussed. It will make a world of difference.

    Here it is,

    http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/2605130949-a-footballers-story/

    It should be read in its entirety as it really gives one an tiny inkling into what life must be like day to day living with it


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,662 The Black Oil
    CMod ✭✭✭✭


    I recall reading that. Powerful.

    I have heard a number of calls for the establishment of a suicide prevention authority. I have to say, I don't get this at all, or why it might be useful, but don't want to drag this off topic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 the_syco
    ✭✭✭✭


    A permanent solution to a temporary problem
    Depression is only becoming accepted as something that exists fairly recently. Like PTSD, it has always existed, and like PTSD was once called "shell shock" that people expected you'd overcome by "manning up", depression is been seen as something that many are suffering from.

    When the priest on the alter is speaking about it, they usually only know about the final straw that broke the camels back; the money problem, the drugs problem, or whatever, and view it as a temporary thing that suicide permanently ended, as opposed to the months or years of depression that preceded it. The f**ker can preach about the badness of the money and drugs, but they probably know they'll get lynched if they talk about depression in the same way!
    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out
    Although a lot of people hate that line, I'd wonder how many people repeat it over and over, to themselves, and only to themselves.
    A word to the wise, it's better to keep your mouth shut if you have no idea what you are talking about.
    But how do you learn that your knowledge is not true if you only preach to the choir? Although a few will forever only see the trees, some will see the forest through the replies of others.
    Emme wrote: »
    but it has been particularly bad in the last few years.
    Emme wrote: »
    I think that it is particularly difficult for men in rural areas.
    It's always been bad in the rural part of Ireland, although due to the heavy religious part, the suicides were never listed as suicides. Drinking a depressant whilst suffering from depression is not always a good mix if you're driving home alone; you'll read about a car crash involving a car, a straight road, and a tree or wall far off the beaten track.
    Emme wrote: »
    What can we in Ireland do to make things easier for people who are suicidal?
    Stop sweeping the suicide stats under the rug, so that they get resources made available to them.
    I have heard a number of calls for the establishment of a suicide prevention authority.
    Once it's non-religious, and can't be controlled by politicians trying to score points, sure, but I fear that the latter will ring true.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 Handsome Bob
    ✭✭✭✭


    I've changed a word in your original post.

    I do not think it's the coward's way out and I've seen the horrific grip it can have on people.

    But I have to say this: depression is not comparable to cancer. Yes, depression is paralysing and can hold you in a vice grip; but there is always support out there that can bring you back from the brink. Reaching out and seeking help in such a situation can be incredibly difficult, I understand that, but it doesn't change the fact that these things are available to someone.

    With cancer? A lot of the time reaching out and seeking help will be fruitless. No matter how much you try and how much you want to, you aren't going to get better.

    This isn't a cry of "man up." I would never think or say something so cruel to someone who as I said, is suffering from something that can feel paralysing and all consuming. But the fact remains, you can pull yourself back from the brink.

    The cancer patient, often, cannot.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,430 Pawwed Rig
    CMod ✭✭✭✭


    I think men are more than able to discuss their problems...I think once people realise somebody has mental issues they abandon them!

    I think this is an excellent point. We all think how understanding and enlightened we would be if we ever were faced with someone with depression or suicidal thoughts. The truth though that it is often the person that is the outcast, the one that we snigger about behind their back, the guy who never gets asked to go for lunch with the others that is the most affected.
    People with depression are not necessarily nice people to be around. They think in a different way than the 'group norm' and often have little in common with others.

    I would ask everyone here to look around their office/workplace and think is there anyone being 'left out' or that is considered weird/strange/different. All of us know someone with depression whether we choose to acknowledge the fact or not. And most of us will never attempt to do anything to help.

    On of the guys who works in my workplace recently did a sponsored cycle in aid of Aware. He sent out the e-mail asking for sponsorship and accepted the plaudits afterwards. This is a guy who single handedly caused one of his reportees 2 separate depressive episodes because of the way he was treating him. He probably does not even realise the consequences of his actions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 April O Neill
    ✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

    Most people kill themselves because they are depressed.

    Your post pretty much says "snap out of it".

    I despair.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,055 Mr.Fred
    ✭✭✭


    BerryBlue wrote: »
    I'm sorry, this will ruffle a few feathers because its become such a popular saying - 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' - I HATE this! Depression and being no longer able to bear it, is not 'temporary' - how long IS temporary? a week/month/ year - how about 5/10/15/20 years? - If you are 1/2/3/4/5 years suffering in excruciating depression - is that 'temporary' ? I love discussions on mental health/depression - but there are so many nonsensical sayings thrown about by people who don't know how it feels to be in that place where 'not being' is FAR more preferable to being.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion - you have yours, I have mine - yet can you truly have such a vehement opinion on something you have never experienced yourself? Think about it....

    Considering it's a saying endorsed by numerous suicide awareness campaigns feel free to hate away. If it takes a saying like it to make people more aware and ruffles your feathers I could live with that.

    As regards my opinion it is purely that as for you attacking my opinion work away I wouldn't have much time for your post either to be honest.

    Now did you have anything useful to add to this thread seeing as how you love mental health discussion. I think like most folks out there you're all talk an no trousers when it comes to tackling issues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 RDM_83 again
    ✭✭✭


    Most people kill themselves because they are depressed.

    Your post pretty much says "snap out of it".

    I despair.

    Do they though? I've not read much but depression is only an indicator of of suicide risk.

    Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

    I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)

    Secondly if depression/suicidal tendencies is to be considered as an inescapable psychological condition that has taken hold (which would seem to be the view of the majority of people on/reading this thread), doesn't that mean that we have a duty to prevent these suicides occurring.

    So if some one wishes to die due to this condition, isn't it the right thing to do to treat them and remove/manage this condition using ANY means necessary with or without the suffers consent.

    I know this point is controversial but I see a flaw in completely absolving a person of responsibility for their actions while still judging that they are compos mentis in relation to choice around treatment.

    Third point is, suicide clustering is a known issue, does more awareness and acceptance of suicide increase rates, is it possible that by raising awareness we are increasing risk? I raise this point with an awareness of how historic figures are inaccurate (and still are) but I still think that there has been an increase in the rates.

    These are just my musings on the issue and I am not advocating wholesale cohercive confinement of the mentally ill or implying any judgement on those suffering from depression or those affected by suicide (which is basically every person in Ireland :( )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,904 mfceiling
    ✭✭✭✭


    Suicide is horrible. The night my brother called me and asked "are you sitting down?"...why? "are you sitting down?"...then he tells me through tears that our older male cousin had hung himself earlier that day.

    The brother used to work with him - day in, day out for 10 years or more. He was like our older brother more so than a cousin.

    After all the fuss had died down and the rumour mill had stopped spinning we find out he had severe depression. Hid it well though - was laughing and joking up until the hours before he did it.

    Depression is an illness, full stop.

    I have a close friend who was suffering from depression and wouldn't seek help. My point to "X" was "if you had a pain in your leg or arm or eye would you see a doctor?" They finally went to the doc after my hounding of them for months. Told me that they broke down crying to the doc and he was able to calm "X" down, listen to "X", talk to "X" and then refer "X" to a counsillor who has helped immensely.

    Never suffer in silence. If you are struggling, tell someone. Come on here and tell us, tell a friend, a work collegue, a family member, a doctor....just tell someone you are struggling.....no one will judge you, but they will listen to you. It's up to you to then get the help you need - it's out there. There's no reason to think things will be better if you were dead - you might think you will be in a better place, but the amount of people you will leave behind in a worse place will far outweigh that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 superb choice of username
    ✭✭


    Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

    You KNOW the primary flaw in the logic - men don't come forward, and so the figures are in no way accurate, but you still state as a fact that 'way more woman suffer from depression than men'? How does that work?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 Rev Hellfire
    ✭✭✭


    Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men
    Fancy providing some recognised studies which match this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 RDM_83 again
    ✭✭✭


    You KNOW the primary flaw in the logic - men don't come forward, and so the figures are in no way accurate, but you still state as a fact that 'way more woman suffer from depression than men'? How does that work?

    Even if the actual rate of depression is gender neutral the differences in suicide still indicate a serious difference/
    Fancy providing some recognised studies which match this.

    http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/177/6/486.short

    http://www.cdc.gov/mentalhealth/data_stats/depression.htm

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/MH00035

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00406-002-0381-6

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2003.00204.x/abstract;jsessionid=F2EBDE8E72281DD1A17CB87D82E4BDAF.d04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

    I'm willing to admit I stated the case a bit strongly and there is obvious issues however what I stated would be the standard view, these links are grabbed after a 2 minute search btw though.

    here's a link to a study that would argue against what I stated however

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15006279


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 April O Neill
    ✭✭✭


    Do they though? I've not read much but depression is only an indicator of of suicide risk.

    Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

    I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)

    Secondly if depression/suicidal tendencies is to be considered as an inescapable psychological condition that has taken hold (which would seem to be the view of the majority of people on/reading this thread), doesn't that mean that we have a duty to prevent these suicides occurring.

    So if some one wishes to die due to this condition, isn't it the right thing to do to treat them and remove/manage this condition using ANY means necessary with or without the suffers consent.

    I know this point is controversial but I see a flaw in completely absolving a person of responsibility for their actions while still judging that they are compos mentis in relation to choice around treatment.

    Third point is, suicide clustering is a known issue, does more awareness and acceptance of suicide increase rates, is it possible that by raising awareness we are increasing risk? I raise this point with an awareness of how historic figures are inaccurate (and still are) but I still think that there has been an increase in the rates.

    These are just my musings on the issue and I am not advocating wholesale cohercive confinement of the mentally ill or implying any judgement on those suffering from depression or those affected by suicide (which is basically every person in Ireland :( )

    Yes, I would say severe depression is the biggest factor in someone taking the decision to end their life.

    As to women suffering from depression more, but more men actually committing suicide, I don't know if there's a definitive answer why that is. It's a worldwide phenomenon.

    I wouldn't see it as a smoking gun for depression not being the main cause. Women may suffer from depression more, but we are also far more encouraged to display our feelings. Nobody ever tells us to "man up".

    Then possibly, physiological differences might help explain it. Differing levels of testosterone, perhaps?

    And nobody is saying that depressed people can't be helped. It how it's treated that needs to change. The cack-handed approaches of the past just won't cut it any more. Sadly, it is still stigmatised, sufferers being called "weak".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 Gillo
    ✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    There's a hell of a lot of cowards out there so. I've been there and attempted it twice, the first time it was by the grace of god that I didn't succeed, the second time I realised what was happening and went straight to the psych hospital I'd been admitted to after my first attempt. What I can say though, definitely at the time of my first attempt it was the right decision in my frame of mind. Straight after it I felt like an even bigger failure because I could even get suicide right.

    TBH, unless you've actually been there, it's very hard to describe what goes through your mind at the time.
    There are plenty of resources for people feeling suicidal (or indeed generally down) the problem is they aren't always obvious or easy to find.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 734 Tom_Cruise
    ✭✭✭


    ted1 wrote: »
    I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

    Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

    Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

    Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

    In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

    lol.

    The cure for depression is to spend thousands of euros on a motor cycle, drive it to Asia or Russia and just travel to random places.

    Why didn't depressed people think of this already?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 Call Me Jimmy
    ✭✭✭


    I think there should also be some focus on the long-term strategy. I am happy to see threads like this and a general raising of awareness and I don't mean to take away from it at all.

    But there are issues faced by people who are not 'cured' or who stay in a suicidal state for a very long time. I'm talking about even if they have done the first step long ago of telling family members, going to the GP etc.

    Illness like this can be even more trying or straining than cancer in that even with understanding family, it cannot be seen. I hate comparing illnesses but I say cancer as an example of an extreme physical illness that can last years and sometimes be cured etc. Someone who has cancer would rightly be treated with the utmost love and compassion for a very long time. Someone who is depressed / suicidal often is not looked on in the same light. I think even the most understanding of people, after long enough can begin to tire and grow weary and feel that maybe the person just isn't applying themselves.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are doing the right thing at the moment, but in my opinion the scarier mental space is after someone has tried to tackle the problem and gets to a point of 'what can I do now?'. 'Go to your GP again'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 the_syco
    ✭✭✭✭


    I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)
    In most cases, not all;
    When a female does it, they're often found, and this is seen as a cry for help; alcohol and pills overdose in a room where they'd be found, etc.
    When a male does it, they're not always found, and it's mostly very permanent; walk in front of a train, etc.

    =-=

    I'd liken depression to HIV or aids. You'll probably have it for life, although you can receive treatment and live a good life. Also, if people find out you have it, people who you saw as friends may turn their backs on you as they may be ignorant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 BerryBlue


    Mr.Fred wrote: »
    Considering it's a saying endorsed by numerous suicide awareness campaigns feel free to hate away. If it takes a saying like it to make people more aware and ruffles your feathers I could live with that.

    As regards my opinion it is purely that as for you attacking my opinion work away I wouldn't have much time for your post either to be honest.

    Now did you have anything useful to add to this thread seeing as how you love mental health discussion. I think like most folks out there you're all talk an no trousers when it comes to tackling issues.

    Firstly – I’m sorry, I stupidly misread your post – I thought you said that it was the selfish way out, when in fact you said ‘it wasn’t’ – so that’s why I was questioning your opinion – got it wrong! Didn’t mean to be attacking, just throwing my opinion out there.

    In regards to the saying ‘a permanent solution to a temporary problem’ – I know it’s used by awareness campaigns and I see it / hear it everywhere when the issue comes up. I’ve been depressed / suicidal and when that saying is just thrown out there so casually trying to simplify a really complex issue – it makes me personally feel like the person who is saying it hasn’t the first clue what they’re talking about. I actually didn’t think anyone would agree with me on it – but a few have thanked it & so I’m not alone in how I feel about it. Serious question – How long is temporary??

    And I don’t know what more I can add to the thread that’s more useful than my opinion/ experience – if its not useful, well I’ve not lost much have I. I will definitely challenge opinions I don’t agree with – and I’m always open to learning more on the subject & interested in what other people have to say about it – how else are we going to learn?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 Feathers
    ✭✭✭


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    The truth though that it is often the person that is the outcast, the one that we snigger about behind their back, the guy who never gets asked to go for lunch with the others that is the most affected.
    People with depression are not necessarily nice people to be around. They think in a different way than the 'group norm' and often have little in common with others.

    I would ask everyone here to look around their office/workplace and think is there anyone being 'left out' or that is considered weird/strange/different. All of us know someone with depression whether we choose to acknowledge the fact or not. And most of us will never attempt to do anything to help.

    While this could be true, it could also be the guy who arranged the lunch group, who's the centre of attention & liked by everyone.

    Depression is mentally dehabilitating, but that doesn't always mean that if you're suffering from it you won't be able to get out of bed. People can be great at hiding it. Unfortunately so, you could say. If it were easier to spot, I don't think there'd be as much of a stigma.

    Sometimes I think that picture of someone with depression leads people to think that if you are in work or with friends that you mustn't be that bad - can lead to both colleagues, and the person themselves, dismiss what they're suffering from as attention seeking, etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 RoboRat
    ✭✭✭


    Suicide is the inevitable end to undiagnosed depression in the same way as death is the inevitable end to untreated cancer. Depression is an illness, its not just some fad that people go through. Some people can work their way out of depression, some people can talk about it, some people can take medication but believe me, it is an illness. If you bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away, it wont.

    It doesn't always manifest itself as somebody who is negative and down, it can affect you in a multitude of ways such as lethargy, anger, excessive thinking, low sex drive. I personally feel that the reason so many men go untreated is because they think the symptoms are singular and they don't conform to what most people consider to be 'the symptoms'. People need to be educated, I think that the men of modern Ireland are ok with discussing these things, I just don't think they associate certain symptoms for what they are.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,430 Pawwed Rig
    CMod ✭✭✭✭


    Feathers wrote: »
    who's the centre of attention & liked by everyone.

    Maybe but I have never seen this situation. I would disagree with you that people are good at hiding it. Usually a few scratches on the surface will uncover a sufferer but I think most people are happy not to go there preferring to ignore it.
    Feathers wrote: »
    Sometimes I think that picture of someone with depression leads people to think that if you are in work or with friends that you mustn't be that bad - can lead to both colleagues, and the person themselves, dismiss what they're suffering from as attention seeking, etc.
    Good point. The attention seeking is particularly important. How often have we described someone as a drama queen or an attention whore. I would say these are classic symptoms of depression whereas most people prefer to dismiss them.

    I personally think that depression is much more widespread than is evident by the statistics but being realistic there are very few avenues for men where they can address the issue. Mens health and well being has never been seen as important as a womans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 SpaceTime
    ✭✭✭


    I honestly think it hits men more than women because we don't tend to talk.

    I know quite a few guys who I would reckon have a lot of acquaintances and no friends.
    I really think guys in particular need to be encouraged to talk about normal stuff.

    A lot of guys do but a lot more have monosyllabic conversations or just discuss factual things like sport.

    I'm not suggesting that we all need to turn into hippy dippy new age types who discuss our feelings at all times but there's a lot to be said for asking someone how they are and actually meaning it.

    Typical conversation here is like :
    grunt "how's it going?"
    response : grunt "how's it going?"

    is not even a genuine question anymore, it's just a vague greeting.

    The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

    Guys always had very very close friends all through history. it's a 19th and 20th century development that got all weird about such relationships. we need to grow up and get over puritanical nonsense from that era. They seemed to want to turn men into some kind of emotionless, grey suit wearing, uncommunicative androids. If you've ever noticed it also tended to mostly apply to the working class and lower middle class who were expected to work in mines or be canon fodder in various wars. the upper class never had any issues with being a bit more flamboyant.

    Likewise guys can and do form close friendships with women without it being about sex and I think people have to lay off being weird about that too.

    and on the gay/bi/confused thing - that hang up is fading but it needs to fade faster! it's still causing enormous stress for men and women, especially if they are growing up in isolated areas.

    Also I think the school system plays a role in it. I'm not sure that educating guys separately from girls does anything for those guys' communication skills. Girls tend to bring a bit more open discussion about lots of things to a situation and is something that I always thought lacked in my school.

    I went to both mixed and single gender schools and I found the single gender environment really strange.

    I just think we need to look at the way we are bringing guys up and need to at opening up communications channels because something isn't working.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 Call Me Jimmy
    ✭✭✭


    SpaceTime wrote: »

    The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

    Very good point. People say they are mature or whatever but this is one thing that is still huge. Sometimes it is jest but I find (and I've probably done it myself) it is a slight discomfort or jealousy on the part of people who try to make something into a 'gay' 'bromance' thing.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 clairefontaine
    ✭✭✭


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I honestly think it hits men more than women because we don't tend to talk.

    I know quite a few guys who I would reckon have a lot of acquaintances and no friends.
    I really think guys in particular need to be encouraged to talk about normal stuff.

    A lot of guys do but a lot more have monosyllabic conversations or just discuss factual things like sport.

    I'm not suggesting that we all need to turn into hippy dippy new age types who discuss our feelings at all times but there's a lot to be said for asking someone how they are and actually meaning it.

    Typical conversation here is like :
    grunt "how's it going?"
    response : grunt "how's it going?"

    is not even a genuine question anymore, it's just a vague greeting.

    The other thing is that lads discussing anything a bit deep / having choose friends is starting to be described as "bromance" and people are implying it's a bit "gay". I honestly think that's become a barrier to some guys forming very close friendships. Macho, homophobic nonsense that's coming in largely via US pop culture and media. it needs to be challenged. guys should be able to have a best bud without all that baggage.

    Guys always had very very close friends all through history. it's a 19th and 20th century development that got all weird about such relationships. we need to grow up and get over puritanical nonsense from that era. They seemed to want to turn men into some kind of emotionless, grey suit wearing, uncommunicative androids. If you've ever noticed it also tended to mostly apply to the working class and lower middle class who were expected to work in mines or be canon fodder in various wars. the upper class never had any issues with being a bit more flamboyant.

    Likewise guys can and do form close friendships with women without it being about sex and I think people have to lay off being weird about that too.

    and on the gay/bi/confused thing - that hang up is fading but it needs to fade faster! it's still causing enormous stress for men and women, especially if they are growing up in isolated areas.

    Also I think the school system plays a role in it. I'm not sure that educating guys separately from girls does anything for those guys' communication skills. Girls tend to bring a bit more open discussion about lots of things to a situation and is something that I always thought lacked in my school.

    I went to both mixed and single gender schools and I found the single gender environment really strange.

    I just think we need to look at the way we are bringing guys up and need to at opening up communications channels because something isn't working.

    All of this starts so so young with the males. Even as early as infancy. The take it on the chin and don't be a wringer attitude or you sound like a girl. To be seen as wimpy or girls gets you judged and even the mothers are part of the problem because they are pressured not to raise a wimp. So all the negative feelings get invalidated or ignored. Read the work of William Pollack. Absolutely fascinating eye opener.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13 galway_dude24


    Last year I went through the most stressful time at work. Came to the stage that I was not eating or sleeping. Thankfully, one Friday I looked at myself in the mirror at work, went back to my office, cleared my desk and walked out.

    I'm luckly I could see a way out. I knew then how it felt to be in a position that I saw no light out of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 RDM_83 again
    ✭✭✭


    Yes, I would say severe depression is the biggest factor in someone taking the decision to end their life.

    Ok but is there any strong evidence for this though? Suicide is obviously strongly correlated with depression however thats not the same as it being present in the majority of cases (when I refer to depression referring to long term depression).
    Depression is a predictor of suicide risk but look at the numbers of depressive cases vs the suicide rate (USA & UK links sorry)

    http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/147/2/155.short

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1120556/

    This second article in particular should be of interest. Particularly in relation to this view
    RoboRat wrote: »
    Suicide is the inevitable end to undiagnosed depression in the same way as death is the inevitable end to untreated cancer. Depression is an illness, its not just some fad that people go through. Some people can work their way out of depression, some people can talk about it, some people can take medication but believe me, it is an illness. If you bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away, it wont.
    It is widely assumed that early and accurate identification of depressive episodes will reduce suicides. This follows from a belief that suicide is a common adverse outcome in depressive disorders: a 15% lifetime risk is often cited. However, clinical experience and population based studies challenge this view. Every week 10% of the UK population aged 16-65 report significant depressive symptoms, and one in 10 of these admits to suicidal thinking.
    But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves
    . A typical primary care group of 100000 expects 10 suicides a year.
    The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.
    Destroy user interface control1 Depressive disorders are therefore
    common, while suicide remains rare.

    The estimate of 15% lifetime risk of suicide emerged from a review of 17 studies of depressed patients, mainly in secondary care, all before 1970.A recent meta-analysis revises the figure to 6%,but this may still be biased towards recurrent inpatients at tertiary centres
    A study from the United States sharpens the focus, describing 62159 person years' follow up for 35546 insured patients treated for depression.
    Risk of suicide declined from 224 per 100000 patient years for inpatients to 64 for outpatients, 43 for those receiving antidepressants in primary care, and 0 for those without drug or secondary treatment. These estimates are much lower and relate to treatment history.

    What does this mean for the national service framework strategy? Better quality primary mental health care for all depressed patients can reduce disability and improve functioning, but the result is unlikely to be a visible and cost effective reduction in the rare phenomenon of suicide.

    In relation to my point about treatment, it is not that suffers can not be helped, but that we should look at taking more rigorous intervention at those most at risk. I am also not saying depression is not something that should not be tackled for its own sake, but I'm unsure if the link is as strong as what is being argued on this thread.

    In relation to the points about segregated education etc being linked to suicide why do we have a rising suicide rate as suicide is destigmatized and integrated education more common (the point about suicides being mis recorded more often in the past is valid however can the rise in figures simply be discounted for that reason?). Perhaps a cultural acceptance of suicide creates increased risk? look at the rates in Japan?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 Feathers
    ✭✭✭


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Maybe but I have never seen this situation. I would disagree with you that people are good at hiding it. Usually a few scratches on the surface will uncover a sufferer but I think most people are happy not to go there preferring to ignore it.

    In fairness, if someone was good at hiding it, you wouldn't know they had depression so you wouldn't know if you had seen this situation.
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Good point. The attention seeking is particularly important. How often have we described someone as a drama queen or an attention whore. I would say these are classic symptoms of depression whereas most people prefer to dismiss them.

    I meant something slightly different. I've seen a reaction to people openly seeking help for depression being dismissed as an act of attention-seeking. Basically the talk behind their back was along the lines of 'Oh, she thinks she has depression now :rolleyes:'.

    With more famous people saying they suffer from depression and the media discussion around it, there's now the idea forming that some people are saying they have depression to be 'fashionable' somehow. This can be another stigma that someone has to face —wanting to avoid a change in how others perceive you is a big part of not wanting to talk more openly about depression, IMO.

    But that attitude could also cause someone to question themselves if they actually have depression — if you're considering seeking help, the idea that you don't even have depression & you're just making a fuss can be strongly appealing to that inner dialogue of self-worthlessness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 RoboRat
    ✭✭✭


    But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves.

    Population of Ireland is 4.576 million. There was 525 suicides in 2011, that's just recorded suicides and doesn't include the likes of single occupant fatal car crashes which many believe a percentage of are suicides. Your stats might be correct, but not in regards to this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 RDM_83 again
    ✭✭✭


    RoboRat wrote: »
    Population of Ireland is 4.576 million. There was 525 suicides in 2011, that's just recorded suicides and doesn't include the likes of single occupant fatal car crashes which many believe a percentage of are suicides. Your stats might be correct, but not in regards to this country.

    Actually they don't even seem right for the UK, maybe I am misreading the statement somehow :confused: because an obvious mistake in the abstract should bounce a paper back from peer review


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 201 EvanCornwallis
    ✭✭


    Anyone of the opinion that suicide is selfish and a perm solution to temp problem. I pray that mental illness never hits you , because you would be in for a horrible reality check.

    People are trying to help and be positive, that's appreciated, but being blunt, you don't have any idea unless you've gone through it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 RoboRat
    ✭✭✭


    Actually they don't even seem right for the UK, maybe I am misreading the statement somehow because an obvious mistake in the abstract should bounce a paper back from peer review

    The article you posted contrdicts itself, it says on one had that:
    But fewer than two people in a million will kill themselves

    and then the next sentence says:
    A typical primary care group of 100000 expects 10 suicides a year.

    The latter is about right based on 2011 stats.




  • Not 100% sure that contradicts itself at all - what exactly is a "primary care" group?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,466 Blisterman
    ✭✭✭


    I've known a few people close to me who've suffered from depression, and have always felt at a loss of what I can do to help them beyond recommending they seek medical help, and saying that I'm always there for them if they need to talk. They rarely take me up on the latter, and I'm wary of bringing it up unprompted.

    I'm genuinely interested in doing whatever I can to help. Does anyone have any advice on how I can do so?


  • Advertisement

Welcome!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.
Advertisement