Why can't teams approach the haka?

Klunk_NZ

Buer wrote: »

I know why it took place. Hansen's comments are incorrect also. The Welsh wanted to sing Bread of Heaven afterwards not their anthem. That's sung traditionally in Wales after the anthems too.

NZ can claim tradition all they like. Everyone knows the haka was a bit of a spoof years ago until television and marketing changed that.

I love the haka. It's a wonderful spectacle and the encounters between NZ and France have been the single most intense pieces of sporting pageantry I've attended. The incident in the Mill Stad though was a debacle and NZ came off terribly. They claim the haka is a challenge put down to the opposition. A team wants to respond to it with their own piece of theatre and they completely throw the toys out of the pram. It took preciousness to new heights in the eyes of almost everyone outside of NZ.

I'll have to differ on that, if we let one country change the order of the pre-match everyone will want to do it. Throwing our weight around once and scaring everyone off seems alot easier. We aren't as precious about the Haka as media would have you believe. I love the challenges....... the NZRFU paid the fine the French got for challenging it. The commentator in the OP is a moron.

irishbucsfan

There was absolutely no reason that the Welsh lads shouldn't have sang bread of heaven after the Haka.

If they hadn't told anyone and just done it, I think it would probably have gone down as one of the best challenges to a haka to date. But unfortunately I guess they gave the kiwis a little too much credit and caused a tantrum.

Klunk_NZ

In 2005, the All Blacks agreed to a request from the Welsh Rugby Union to repeat the sequence of events from the original match a century before in 1905. This involved the All Blacks performing the haka after "God Defend New Zealand" and before "Hen Wlad fy Nhadau". For the November 2006 test, the Welsh Rugby Union demanded a repeat of this sequence. The All Blacks refused, and instead chose to perform the haka in their changing room before the match. All Blacks captain Richie McCaw defended the decision by stating that the haka was "integral to New Zealand culture and the All Blacks' heritage" and "if the other team wants to mess around, we'll just do the haka in the shed".The crowd reacted negatively to the lack of the haka and then being shown brief footage of the haka on the screens at the Millennium Stadium.

The Haka goes after the anthems.....

prospect

Here is what I don't understand regarding this supposed 'tradition' or 'heritage'.

The haka has a few meanings, sometimes forms are apparently welcome or celebratory dances.
Some forms are war dances, their purpose was to intimidate the 'opposition', and this is what the Rugby team do.

They do this because in their culture they always did this, which is fine.

But, in their traditional war dancing and culture, did they have any control on what their opposition did. Did they have any way of controlling their opposition and forcing them to behave a particular way. I doubt it.

So this is really only 50% traditional because 50% of the people are being forced to act a particular way.


I'd stress again, I enjoy watching the Haka and have no issue with it being performed, throat slitting and all. But I fail to see why the opposition cannot spend those few minutes warming up, practice kicking & passing or whatever else they wish to do.

Podge_irl

The crowd reacted negatively to the ABs doing the Haka in the changing room and their ire was directed at the ABs not the WRU. Because they acted like children.

The Haka simply wasn't as integral to the ABs as it is now until well into the 70s, which somewhat dampens the arguments about it being historic. I also fail to see how it is an affront to the ABs heritage and culture to respond to the bloody challenge.

The Haka in its current form and the control over the reaction to it is a victory of marketing and pomp over substance.

I also get weary, when teams respond to it in various manners (such as Wales refusing to move first) and are subsequently beaten, the defeat is ascribed to the "disrespect" shown towards the Haka. As if NZ wouldn't have won anyway.

Hagz

Was there any footage of the haka in the dressing room. Must have been funny to watch.

The beginning of this clip shows the Welsh anthem being sung after the haka. I don't see why this ins't the done thing. It's their stadium/home, if they want to sing the anthem after the haka, then they should be allowed to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsyfrmDJ1Pk

toomevara

Hagz wrote: »

Was there any footage of the haka in the dressing room. Must have been funny to watch.

It was broadcast live from the dressing room at the time. I remember watching it open-mouthed with astonishment...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6187320.stm

Klunk_NZ

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

I'll have to differ on that, if we let one country change the order of the pre-match everyone will want to do it.

er... that's exactly what we have done.

The difference is the "one country" in question is New Zealand.

fitz

I love the Haka (though the AB's version looks fairly pansy now compared to a Maori one I saw while in NZ for the RWC), and I wouldn't want to see it scrapped.
I vehemently disagree with the enforced "respect" without a right of response. Enforced respect isn't really respect, it's just following the rules.
And if it's a challenge, it shouldn't be a one way thing. The tradition thing is rubbish. The AB's didn't always do the Haka pre-game, it's relatively recent.
All traditions start somewhere. If the Welsh want to establish a tradition of singing in response to the Haka, why not?

If one team gets to do something that has to be observed by the opposition, then it's arrogant in the extreme of anyone to suggest that there shouldn't be the same respect and opportunity afforded to respond.
It's just saying "you're not important enough for us to let you have your own pre-game ritual."

irishbucsfan

How about...

Wales or anyone else are allowed to sing their anthem at any time they like, providing they get Katherine Jenkins to do it?

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How about...

Wales or anyone else are allowed to sing their anthem at any time they like, providing they get Katherine Jenkins to do it?

I'd rather the English one from this years 6N. Who also happens to play Rugby!

Swiwi.

Le vieux renard is ambivalent in this matter. On the one hand le haka makes for damn fine viewing. On the other hand, it is not so good for the burrow. Le vieux renard thinks that NZ can be too precious in this matter. But just as "nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear" (merci Albert), so teams should respect the haka but not fear it. That is the beginning of rugby wisdom!

CatFromHue

Other than the "throat slitting" gesture I've no problem with the Haka.....well except that Ali Williams used to always get the good spot in front of the camera!

Clareman

Don't forget the Irish haka

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycVVKBLC1sQ

mrboswell

If other teams are to respect the 'tradition' then when NZ changed the version of the haka they actually broke the 'tradition'.

By all means do your merry dance but the IRB should not make any team stand and watch. Let them do their own thing like the dubs to to the fans on hill 16.

For the IRB to issue a fine its a load of bull. Anyway if you p*ss off the AB's like Wales what the worst that can happen? Hammer us by 50 points to nil or something like that? :rolleyes:

corny

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

I'll have to differ on that, if we let one country change the order of the pre-match everyone will want to do it. Throwing our weight around once and scaring everyone off seems alot easier.

The sense of entitlement and the sheer arrogance are what really gets me.

Campo had the right idea... just ignore them.

ambid

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

How did the test end up? :P

Challenging the Haka is fine, we loved the Arrowhead France did. I think you will even find NZ commentator saying "I bet the IRB is going to do something stupid like fining them"

Yeah there is a reason that video is only 1:10 long...

The Aussie

corny wrote: »

Campo had the right idea... just ignore them.

But then you have to listen to the Bleating (see what I did there, a Kiwi Sheep joke) about them threatening not to do it as if its for the betterment of the opposition, gee I laughed at that episode.
campo grabbed the ball ignored them put on a show and the flood of tears starts, "everybody look at us" as we do the dance of the sugar plum fairies.

.ak

Okay, that's enough. Frankly, this kind of thread can't exist without people taking pot shots at Kiwi's, and that's pretty sad IMO as there's obviously bigger issues regarding the subject.