"Ireland’s priests will have almost disappeared in 20 years"

SebBerkovich

Well it turns out the Catholic Church has discovered the lost art of basic mathematics.

In this article a priest points out the interesting fact that: an institution consisting of backward old men pretending to be celibate is attracting new young people about as well as the EDL is in attracting new Muslim members.

Not enough Irish people are joining the priesthood to replace those priests retiring/serving prison time/being hidden away from authorities.

Once a lifetime of hiding peodfiles and/or abusing children without consequence was apparently quite appealing to the irish youth (the RCC presumes).
But without new people joining - in 20 years there won't be enough priests to perform all the priesting stuff we so desperately need... it's gonna be tough, but i think i might be able to get through these dark days.

seamus

They'll import a lot of priests from African and Asian nations to try fill the void, but this will lead to fracturing of the structure in Ireland into various sub-sects which the increasingly ambivalent population will no longer identify with.

The next twenty years will certainly be interesting - the "cultural catholic" will still exist and be looking for churches to satisfy their traditions but the churches will be increasingly devout and turning away the cultural catholics.

I don't believe the decline of the priesthood is a reflection of the paedophile scandal as much as it is the realisation that you are not bound by cultural norms or what your parents want for you. And also that being a priest sucks. The priesthood was previously seen as one of the top-tier occupations, like being the local politician or doctor. And in many cases it was a requirement of you because you were born as the nth son. This nth son requirement is gone, and the priest has lost practically all power outside of small rural villages, so it present basically nothing attractive to young people as an occupation. You get to be unpaid and celibate for the rest of your life. Sign me up...

There is a relatively large African and Polish contingent in Ireland who will likely displace the Irish as the main adherents of christianity (in actual terms, not in cultural terms).

Sarky

It's going to be a fun ride, watching all the schisms and lamentation and financial scandals from those crazy god-will-send-you-money sects and the like.

Probably with moments of horrible unpleasantness as people use religion to justify some horrible things, but that's hardly new. Overall, I think the cynics among us are in for a treat so stock up on popcorn.

PopePalpatine

seamus wrote: »

They'll import a lot of priests from African and Asian nations to try fill the void, but this will lead to fracturing of the structure in Ireland into various sub-sects which the increasingly ambivalent population will no longer identify with.

Someone in one of the stickied threads (either "Funny Side of Religion" or "Hazards of Belief") said something along the lines of: the most hardcore adherents are probably strongly racist, and will not take kindly to an African priest.

ad83

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Well it turns out the Catholic Church has discovered the lost art of basic mathematics.

In this article a priest points out the interesting fact that: an institution consisting of backward old men pretending to be celibate is attracting new young people about as well as the EDL is in attracting new Muslim members.

Not enough Irish people are joining the priesthood to replace those priests retiring/serving prison time/being hidden away from authorities.

Once a lifetime of hiding peodfiles and/or abusing children without consequence was apparently quite appealing to the irish youth (the RCC presumes).
But without new people joining - in 20 years there won't be enough priests to perform all the priesting stuff we so desperately need... it's gonna be tough, but i think i might be able to get through these dark days.

I seriously hope so. Why does this even get reported by mainstream media.

It never fails to astonish me how sensitive and respectful we all have to be to practicing catholics whilst it is not recipricated.

What annoys me even more who think allowing women to be priests will solve the "problem". I dont think anyone should be a priest

SebBerkovich

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Someone in one of the stickied threads (either "Funny Side of Religion" or "Hazards of Belief") said something along the lines of: the most hardcore adherents are probably strongly racist, and will not take kindly to an African priest.

Not sure i've ever noticed a link between strongly adherent catholics and racism, certainly people of later generations have a tendency to being a little racist. They also tend be adherent catholics but in my experience i haven't noticed someone's faith making them racist*

Then again i wouldn't be too surprised if there was some evidence for it.

*except Mormons.... they've got some crazy lies going on about black people.

MadYaker

If priests were allowed to get married and have families it would do a lot to solve this problem. But to be honest I welcome the demise of the catholic church in Ireland.

Gbear

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Not sure i've ever noticed a link between strongly adherent catholics and racism, certainly people of later generations have a tendency to being a little racist. They also tend be adherent catholics but in my experience i haven't noticed someone's faith making them racist*

Then again i wouldn't be too surprised if there was some evidence for it.

*except Mormons.... they've got some crazy lies going on about black people.

I'd say it's not a causal link but religiosity and racism are both negatively correlated with education and wealth.

The latter two go up, the former 2 go down.

PopePalpatine

Gbear wrote: »

I'd say it's not a causal link but religiosity and racism are both negatively correlated with education and wealth.

The latter two go up, the former 2 go down.

I was thinking more about the link between the right wing and religion.

robindch

PopePalpatine wrote: »

[...] the link between the right wing and religion.

Bob Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians", available as a PDF from here:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Ignore the scrappy formatting, the content is fascinating. Here's the introduction:

Bob Altemeyer wrote:

[...] take the following statement: “Once our government leaders and the authorities condemn the dangerous elements in our society, it will be the duty of every patriotic citizen to help stomp out the rot that is poisoning our country from within.” Sounds like something Hitler would say, right? Want to guess how many politicians, how many lawmakers in the United States agreed with it? Want to guess what they had in common?

Or how about a government program that persecutes political parties, or minorities, or journalists the authorities do not like, by putting them in jail, even torturing and killing them. Nobody would approve of that, right? Guess again.

Don’t think for a minute this doesn’t concern you personally. Let me ask you, as we’re passing the time here, how many ordinary people do you think an evil authority would have to order to kill you before he found someone who would, unjustly, out of sheer obedience, just because the authority said to? What sort of person is most likely to follow such an order? What kind of official is most likely to give that order, if it suited his purposes? Look at what experiments tell us, as I did.

If, on the other hand, you’re way ahead of me, and believe the extreme right-wing elements in America are poised to take it over, permanently, I think you can still get a lot from this book. The studies explain so much about these people. Yes, the research shows they are very aggressive, but why are they so hostile? Yes, experiments show they are almost totally uninfluenced by reasoning and evidence, but why are they so dogmatic? Yes, studies show the Religious Right has more than its fair share of hypocrites, from top to bottom; but why are they two-faced, and how come one face never notices the other? Yes, their leaders can give the flimsiest of excuses and even outright lies about things they’ve done wrong, but why do the rank and file believe them? What happens when authoritarian followers find the authoritarian leaders they crave and start marching together?

I think you’ll find this book “explains a lot.” Many scattered impressions about the enemies of freedom and equality become solidified by science and coherently connected here.

You think I’m pulling your leg? Click the link.

Kidchameleon

I think its a shame, there's some great priests out there. Not all of them are peodos, in fact I believe its quite a small percentage.

Pherekydes

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I think its a shame, there's some great priests out there. Not all of them are peodos, in fact I believe its quite a small percentage.

You are quite right. Would you consider becoming a priest yourself?

My parents wanted one of us to become a priest, but despite their strong Catholicism none of their offspring were even slightly religious. I was the one earmarked for it, being seen as "goodytwoshoes" in the family, but I always hated all that religious ceremonial tedium. Besides, why would a heterosexual male spend his life depriving himself of women? That aspect always baffled me.

Kidchameleon

Pherekydes wrote: »

You are quite right. Would you consider becoming a priest yourself?

Dont think so. Not unless I get some unexplained calling!

smcgiff

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Not unless I get some unexplained calling!

I refer you to post 12.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Would you consider becoming a priest yourself?

What? You were expecting voices in your head.

Best of luck now.

robindch

Pherekydes wrote: »

Besides, why would a heterosexual male spend his life depriving himself of women?

I'm not fully sure all of them did.

Shenshen

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I think its a shame, there's some great priests out there. Not all of them are peodos, in fact I believe its quite a small percentage.

"Say there's 200 million priests in the world, and 5% of them are paedophiles, that's still only 10 million."

Kidchameleon

smcgiff wrote: »

What? You were expecting voices in your head.

Best of luck now.

Who said anything about voices in ones head? Wasn't me anyhow. Your better off asking a priest why he chose the preisthood. Some will say it was a "calling" but that doesn't necessarily mean they were hearing voices.

Kidchameleon

Shenshen wrote: »

"Say there's 200 million priests in the world, and 5% of them are paedophiles, that's still only 10 million."

Actually I'd be interested in seeing real figures on that. Does anyone know of any sources where one could find number of priests / number of convicted pedophiles in the priesthood. Would be an interesting read.

Penn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Actually I'd be interested in seeing real figures on that. Does anyone know of any sources where one could find number of priests / number of convicted pedophiles in the priesthood. Would be an interesting read.

I don't think an accurate number is possible. In many cases, accused priests died before being found guilty or innocent, seeing as how most of the abuse reported were historical cases.

The number is fairly irrelevant though. One paedophile priest is one too many.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Actually I'd be interested in seeing real figures on that. Does anyone know of any sources where one could find number of priests / number of convicted pedophiles in the priesthood. Would be an interesting read.

It's been debated at length in the Ongoing Scandals thread.

In short, the figures from multiple countries show that, depending on the source, the period measured, the degree of confidence, the nature of the convictions and allegations, and so on, between 2% and 10% of catholic priests are either convicted pedophiles or priests who've had credible allegations made against them.

The best estimate I've seen of that number in Ireland is around 6.5%, or about one priest in every fifteen. There are plausible reasons to believe that this estimate is on the low side, but it's difficult or impossible to know exactly by how much. The one in fifteen estimate is derived from the various judicial inquiries into residential and clerical abuse, and it's corroborated by figures released by the church itself.

Sarky

robindch wrote: »

The best estimate I've seen of that number in Ireland is around 6.5%

Oh no, you said it. I have the feeling something terrible is about to happen.

Delirium

Sarky wrote: »

Oh no, you said it. I have the feeling something terrible is about to happen.

it's never Beetlejuice:(

Galvasean

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I think its a shame, there's some great priests out there. Not all of them are peodos, in fact I believe its quite a small percentage.

They can still be great people without being priests you know...

jimd2

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Well it turns out the Catholic Church has discovered the lost art of basic mathematics.

In this article a priest points out the interesting fact that: an institution consisting of backward old men pretending to be celibate is attracting new young people about as well as the EDL is in attracting new Muslim members.

Not enough Irish people are joining the priesthood to replace those priests retiring/serving prison time/being hidden away from authorities.

Once a lifetime of hiding peodfiles and/or abusing children without consequence was apparently quite appealing to the irish youth (the RCC presumes).
But without new people joining - in 20 years there won't be enough priests to perform all the priesting stuff we so desperately need... it's gonna be tough, but i think i might be able to get through these dark days.

Considering the poor state of the Catholic Church (as you and others see it) I wonder why you continue to be so obsessed with it?

You are an atheist and so why do you give a sh!t about anything to do with the church? Yet you are sufficiently interested (or obsessed more like) that you have to go on to an atheists forum and repeat your various obsessive rants about the church to an audience that is essentially an open door and agree with everything you say!

Of course the various child abuse issues were horrendous but you and your ilk would like to believe and portray that ALL or almost all priests behaved like that.

If you want to debate the future lack of priests why dont you go on to the Christianity forum and have a discussion there?

If I go on to the soccer forum I dont see the regulars slagging off the GAA or rugby every few threads, likewise with the other special interest forums. In fact the A&A forum is possibly the forum that is most obsessed with an organisation that they profess to have nothing to do with or believe in.

I suggest, instead of staying in on a nice day like yesterday and starting threads like this that you could have been out enjoying the nice weather or perhaps starting threads discussing your own beliefs or philosophies that you do have. Maybe that is too much to ask.

Realtivity

An effective solution to the fall off in vocations to the priesthood.

Ban alcohol sponsorship in sport and let the RCC do it instead. Change the name of the "Heineken Cup" to the "Blessed Eucharist Cup".

Thousands of young people will pour into mass and binge on holy communion
thereby filling themselves with "Sanctifying Grace" and an incurable desire to join the priesthood.

PopePalpatine

jimd2 wrote: »

If I go on to the soccer forum I dont see the regulars slagging off the GAA or rugby every few threads, likewise with the other special interest forums. In fact the A&A forum is possibly the forum that is most obsessed with an organisation that they profess to have nothing to do with or believe in.

Have the GAA, the IRFU or the FAI demanded that their rules apply to golfers, cricketers, or racing drivers?

the_syco

seamus wrote: »

They'll import a lot of priests from African

There were one or two black priests when I was in the local church sometime last year (t'was a funeral), so this seems to be the way forward.

SebBerkovich wrote: »

*except Mormons.... they've got some crazy lies going on about black people.

I know two Mormons; they're both coloured.

robindch wrote: »

it's corroborated by figures released by the church itself.

Seeing at how good they are at moving them around, I'd consider the number to be on the low side if the church agrees with the number...

jimd2 wrote: »

You are an atheist and so why do you give a sh!t about anything to do with the church?

When you have kids you'll find out that they'll have to be christened to get into most of the local schools. Sure there's a few non-denominational schools around Ireland now, but that's only a fairly recent thing.

And I'm sure many more will continue the rant why.

Kidchameleon

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Have the GAA, the IRFU or the FAI demanded that their rules apply to golfers, cricketers, or racing drivers?

The Church is highly influential alright but they have no authority to demand anything. Its it the government that the people* elect that make the decisions.

*people who are every day becoming less and less religious

Kidchameleon

the_syco wrote: »

When you have kids you'll find out that they'll have to be christened to get into most of the local schools. Sure there's a few non-denominational schools around Ireland now, but that's only a fairly recent thing.

Again, its the government who is to blame for this. The church is highly influential of course I'm not denying that but at the end of the day they are not making the decisions.

Sarky

jimd2 wrote: »

Of course the various child abuse issues were horrendous but you and your ilk would like to believe and portray that ALL or almost all priests behaved like that.

ARE horrendous, jim. They haven't gone away, and they haven't stopped being f*cking despicable.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The Church is highly influential alright but they have no authority to demand anything.

Have you ever had a chance to seen the inside of a school at any point since the founding of the state?

Hotblack Desiato

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Not sure i've ever noticed a link between strongly adherent catholics and racism, certainly people of later generations have a tendency to being a little racist.

A little...? Some of the things I've heard 'harmless little old ladies' come out with...

Anyway.. the new 'mission to Ireland' priests will be a test of their faith :pac:

jimd2 wrote: »

Considering the poor state of the Catholic Church (as you and others see it) I wonder why you continue to be so obsessed with it?

Because it is obsessed with us. It blames us for everything, including paedophilia (the irony)

You are an atheist and so why do you give a sh!t about anything to do with the church? Yet you are sufficiently interested (or obsessed more like) that you have to go on to an atheists forum and repeat your various obsessive rants about the church to an audience that is essentially an open door and agree with everything you say!

More irony, why would a theist hang around an atheist forum just to be offended?

In fact the A&A forum is possibly the forum that is most obsessed with an organisation that they profess to have nothing to do with or believe in.

I would LOVE to have nothing to do with the catholic church - yet it insists on having something to do with me. It enrolled me as a baby and won't let me officially leave. It won't give up control of 94% of primary schools, making it almost impossible to obtain non-brainwashed education for my kids. It treats women as second class citizens and wants the law to do so as well.

ShooterSF

jimd2 wrote: »

If I go on to the soccer forum I dont see the regulars slagging off the GAA or rugby every few threads, likewise with the other special interest forums. In fact the A&A forum is possibly the forum that is most obsessed with an organisation that they profess to have nothing to do with or believe in.

Ok. I'm not a fan of the GAA or the RCC so maybe it'll help if I explain why I rejoice in the idea of the RCC losing it's power while I couldn't care less what state the GAA is in. You see the GAA doesn't step on my toes or the toes of my fellow human beings who aren't a fan of it, not so much the RCC. Just look at gay marriage issues worldwide and closer to home the abortion issue. Religion unlike a sport or hobby tends to dictate a morality to it's followers and as I live in a mostly wonderful democracy, my fellow citizens and I most try and come up with a group morality for our country and as I find the moral code imposed on members of the RCC by it's head abhorrent you'll excuse me if I pop a party popper for everyone who no longer lights a candle.

NIMAN

Their downfall is totally self-inflicted. They can't blame anyone.

68Murph68

seamus wrote: »

They'll import a lot of priests from African and Asian nations to try fill the void.

I'd love to know what the process is as regards to getting immigration visas for priests to come here to work and how it compares to say someone who works in any other industry.

It would be very interesting to see a comparison between the percentage of applicants who have priest down on their immigration visa application versus any other career coming from the continent of Africa.

Anyway the notion of importing priests can only go so far, the church in Ireland is looking at a situation where there wont be enough priests to even maintain a basic framework

Looking to see more about this story came across this article.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/priests-role-in-society-must-be-reimagined-233163.html

There are currently 4,000 priests in Ireland

In the past 23 years, the number of clerical students has declined from 525 at Maynooth, Cloniffe, Thurles, Kilkennny, Waterford, Wexford, Carlow, Belfast, All Hallows, and Rome to just 70 seminarians at colleges in Maynooth, Belfast, and Rome.

So in 1990 there were 525 students studying for the priesthood in Ireland while in 2013 there are 70. Normally takes 6 year to become a priest so it basically means that the situation has gone from 88 priests a year to 12 priests a year in the space of 20 years.

If the current rate of 12 priests a year was maintained over 50 years (assuming the lifespan of a working priest is 25 to 75) that would mean a decline to 600 priests. That's being extremely generous in terms of 1) no priests ever packing it in 2) the health/life expectancy of every priest. There's also the fact that as there are less and less priests, the notion of joining the priesthood surely will become less attractive, so I would be surprised if even the 12 priests a year would be maintained.

Basically if the Church goes from a position where there is 4000 priests currently to something like 600 there is no way that its influence will not be seriously affected.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

Have you ever had a chance to seen the inside of a school at any point since the founding of the state?

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

swampgas

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The Church is highly influential alright but they have no authority to demand anything. Its it the government that the people* elect that make the decisions.

*people who are every day becoming less and less religious

This is a valid point, as it is the government that has given power to the church, and the government can take that power away again.

However right now the church does have some influence - especially in the institutions it has some control over. Applicants for most primary school teaching positions often have to be (or pretend to be) Catholic to get a position. Parents of children trying to get into most primary schools often have to do the same.

Look at the current campaign by the RCC to bully TDs into voting against the abortion legislation - they are interfering in our democracy. They can do this because they still have some influence over people, and thus indirectly over TDs and the government.

IMO this forum is not really about debating this issue directly with the RCC - it is about debating the issues with other people living in the country. The real problem is that almost every Irish voter today has been indoctrinated in a Catholic school, and has been immersed in a culture of Catholic baptisms, weddings and funerals. Getting many Irish people to see that there is anything wrong with Catholic influence is a bit like trying to deprogram people who have been brainwashed in a cult.

The apologists keep coming on here, defending the churches record, defending the value of religion, defending the status quo, refusing to accept that the Roman Catholic Church has way too much influence in the running of the state. These are the people the church has successfully brainwashed during their formative years to be its lifelong supporters.
They frequently complain that atheists have nothing better to do than "obsess" about religion, while refusing to accept that maybe atheists have a point and maybe the religion they are so keen to defend should NOT be imposed in a compulsory fashion on every child and adult in the land.

kylith

jimd2 wrote: »

Considering the poor state of the Catholic Church (as you and others see it) I wonder why you continue to be so obsessed with it?

You are an atheist and so why do you give a sh!t about anything to do with the church? Yet you are sufficiently interested (or obsessed more like) that you have to go on to an atheists forum and repeat your various obsessive rants about the church to an audience that is essentially an open door and agree with everything you say!

Well, let me see (like this hasn't been said in a million threads already): Does the church continue to try to tell me and other non-Christians who we can and can't marry? Why, yes it does. Does it have a virtual stranglehold over education in this country? I do believe it does! Have RCC traditions become so entrenched in the Irish psyche that you're expected to adhere to them whether or not your a member of said church? My goodness, another yes! Does the RCC try to tell me what I can do with my own body and how I should feel, act, and think about said body? Gracious me, it does.

Lets say this slowly, so we don't have to say it again.
When the Catholic church bogs off and keeps its nose out of other peoples' business then we will stop bitching about them.

joseph brand

kylith wrote: »

Lets say this slowly, so we don't have to say it again.
When the Catholic church bogs off and keeps its nose out of other peoples' business then we will stop bitching about them.

Could I just add to that:
When the church stops being insane and preaching blind, willful ignorance as a virtue, when they quit telling our children fairy tales in school, when they quit being homophobic and misogynistic, when they stop raping children and thwarting attempts to prosecute guilty clergy, and when the RCC keeps it's ancient nose out of our political matters, then maybe I will refrain from moaning and attacking this proverbial ball and chain attached to this island.

There was some report mentioned on Newstalk this morning, which looked at primary school education in 70 countries, and it said that Ireland was second only to Israel in the amount of time spent on religion in school. Probably deserves it's own thread, but I can't find a link to the report.

It probably goes without saying, that we are pretty low down the list when it comes to teaching Science.

Dades

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

How about 1/2 an hour a day with 4-5 year olds to teach them whatever they want to teach is true? Out of a 3 1/2 hour day.

Sounds like an authoritative position to me. What other organisation has the door opened to them to instill their worldview on a child of this age and throughout their entire school life?

Kidchameleon

Dades wrote: »

How about 1/2 an hour a day with 4-5 year olds to teach them whatever they want to teach is true? Out of a 3 1/2 hour day.

Sounds like an authoritative position to me. What other organisation has the door opened to them to instill their worldview on a child of this age and throughout their entire school life?

100% agree with you, but again its the idiots in charge we should be blaming on this. The church can have whatever opinion it wants, everyone is entitled to that, but why are they allowed to get away with teaching it in schools?

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Have you ever had a chance to seen the inside of a school at any point since the founding of the state?

Obviously.

Not obvious to me, from your unfamiliarity with Irish schools.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

Well, apart from the involuntary, socially-mandated indoctrination of trusting children with a range of irrational and mostly anti-social ideas, the unconscionable control of the nation's primary schools by an organization with the child-care history of the Catholic Church, the total waste of innumerable hours and unbelievable amounts of energy, the willful dishonesty of the whole sorry enterprise, the continual violation of Article 44, Section 2.2 of the Irish Constitution ("The State guarantees not to endow any religion."), yes, I suppose there are the statues of gloriously (and helpfully) dead men and women. And some crosses too.

But other than all of that, sure, isn't church control of schools a grand thing, eh? Lovely men, the lot of them and they wouldn't lie about a bit of it, now would they

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

If my soon to be 7 year old granddaughter heard you say that you would be subjected to a well deserved rant about the amount of time she has to spend in school hearing about littlebabyjesus and holymarymotherofgod and how little time she gets to spend on reading, writing and maths (which she loves) and the complete lack of any kind of science. We do all of that in my house. We have made 'volcanoes', sucked eggs into bottles by creating a vacuum, suspended eggs in saline solutions, stuck balloons to our heads using static electricity etc etc. All easy to do using inexpensive household product experiments which could be done in schools even with little kids. But no - it's far more 'important' that she will spend most of 1st class doing communion prep...:rolleyes:

It was on the news last night that the only 'developed' country that spends more time on religion in school than Ireland is Israel. You know - Israel: a country that not only has a State religion but was created for people of a specific religion.

We arn't meant to have a State religion... HA, I say to that!

ardmacha

Religion unlike a sport or hobby tends to dictate a morality to it's followers and as I live in a mostly wonderful democracy, my fellow citizens and I most try and come up with a group morality for our country and as I find the moral code imposed on members of the RCC by it's head abhorrent

Oh right, so if your fellow citizens and you come up with a group morality, that's a good thing. If another group have a group morality that's abhorrent. Not at all dogmatic.

kylith

ardmacha wrote: »

Oh right, so if your fellow citizens and you come up with a group morality, that's a good thing. If another group have a group morality that's abhorrent. Not at all dogmatic.

Citizens democratically deciding what is and is not permissible in their society is one thing. A group of men following rules from two millennia ago non-democratically attempting to dictate morals to those who do not follow their religion, especially when said group has been shown to be largely morally bankrupt, is quite another.

Sarky

Bannasidhe wrote: »

stuck balloons to our heads using static electricity

A year or two ago at a games convention we had a competition to see how many balloons people could stick to my head with static electricity. We managed 5 or 6 of the buggers. Good times, good times...

ardmacha

Citizens democratically deciding what is and is not permissible in their society is one thing. A group of men following rules from two millennia ago non-democratically attempting to dictate morals to those who do not follow their religion, especially when said group has been shown to be largely morally bankrupt, is quite another.

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Bannasidhe

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Thousands of years is pushing it a bit unless you mean Judaism not Christianity which was very much a minority (and despised) religion up until about 1500 years ago.

Does burning and torturing anyone who were suspected of having some reservations count as part of this 'moral philosophy'? Because that is what happened.
Murdering hundreds of thousands of people for possibly doubting is a fine way to organise a society.

Boards.ie is informing Ireland's societal norms now? Oh, well done us...although I hope it's not the bigoted trolls one finds in AH and certain other forums but I fear it is.

kylith

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Who said anything about Boards? I certainly didn't. What are you on about?

However (mod dictatorship though it might be ) Boards is, at least, a place of debate, discussion, and discourse, unlike organised religion.

robindch

ardmacha wrote: »

Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Given that the only aim of the various corrupt and corrupting "moral philosophies" was to sustain various bronze-age religions and their gold- and jewel-encrusted cheerleaders, while legitimizing the rulers who funded them, while literally hanging the people on the bottom who ultimately had to pay for and endure the whole sorry spectacle, I'm inclined to think that there are far worse places than boards.ie to debate philosophies and determine, understand and acquire a decent ethical understanding of life.

It sure isn't debated to this extent in any catholic-controlled schools or other places that I'm aware of.

swampgas

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

How did you manage to interpret "Citizens democratically deciding what is and is not permissible in their society" as "Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society" ???

Given your apparent penchant for the value of "thousands of years of moral philosophy" (whatever that is), would you prefer to live in a theocracy?