"Ireland’s priests will have almost disappeared in 20 years"

Hotblack Desiato

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Not sure i've ever noticed a link between strongly adherent catholics and racism, certainly people of later generations have a tendency to being a little racist.

A little...? Some of the things I've heard 'harmless little old ladies' come out with...

Anyway.. the new 'mission to Ireland' priests will be a test of their faith :pac:

jimd2 wrote: »

Considering the poor state of the Catholic Church (as you and others see it) I wonder why you continue to be so obsessed with it?

Because it is obsessed with us. It blames us for everything, including paedophilia (the irony)

You are an atheist and so why do you give a sh!t about anything to do with the church? Yet you are sufficiently interested (or obsessed more like) that you have to go on to an atheists forum and repeat your various obsessive rants about the church to an audience that is essentially an open door and agree with everything you say!

More irony, why would a theist hang around an atheist forum just to be offended?

In fact the A&A forum is possibly the forum that is most obsessed with an organisation that they profess to have nothing to do with or believe in.

I would LOVE to have nothing to do with the catholic church - yet it insists on having something to do with me. It enrolled me as a baby and won't let me officially leave. It won't give up control of 94% of primary schools, making it almost impossible to obtain non-brainwashed education for my kids. It treats women as second class citizens and wants the law to do so as well.

ShooterSF

jimd2 wrote: »

If I go on to the soccer forum I dont see the regulars slagging off the GAA or rugby every few threads, likewise with the other special interest forums. In fact the A&A forum is possibly the forum that is most obsessed with an organisation that they profess to have nothing to do with or believe in.

Ok. I'm not a fan of the GAA or the RCC so maybe it'll help if I explain why I rejoice in the idea of the RCC losing it's power while I couldn't care less what state the GAA is in. You see the GAA doesn't step on my toes or the toes of my fellow human beings who aren't a fan of it, not so much the RCC. Just look at gay marriage issues worldwide and closer to home the abortion issue. Religion unlike a sport or hobby tends to dictate a morality to it's followers and as I live in a mostly wonderful democracy, my fellow citizens and I most try and come up with a group morality for our country and as I find the moral code imposed on members of the RCC by it's head abhorrent you'll excuse me if I pop a party popper for everyone who no longer lights a candle.

NIMAN

Their downfall is totally self-inflicted. They can't blame anyone.

68Murph68

seamus wrote: »

They'll import a lot of priests from African and Asian nations to try fill the void.

I'd love to know what the process is as regards to getting immigration visas for priests to come here to work and how it compares to say someone who works in any other industry.

It would be very interesting to see a comparison between the percentage of applicants who have priest down on their immigration visa application versus any other career coming from the continent of Africa.

Anyway the notion of importing priests can only go so far, the church in Ireland is looking at a situation where there wont be enough priests to even maintain a basic framework

Looking to see more about this story came across this article.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/priests-role-in-society-must-be-reimagined-233163.html

There are currently 4,000 priests in Ireland

In the past 23 years, the number of clerical students has declined from 525 at Maynooth, Cloniffe, Thurles, Kilkennny, Waterford, Wexford, Carlow, Belfast, All Hallows, and Rome to just 70 seminarians at colleges in Maynooth, Belfast, and Rome.

So in 1990 there were 525 students studying for the priesthood in Ireland while in 2013 there are 70. Normally takes 6 year to become a priest so it basically means that the situation has gone from 88 priests a year to 12 priests a year in the space of 20 years.

If the current rate of 12 priests a year was maintained over 50 years (assuming the lifespan of a working priest is 25 to 75) that would mean a decline to 600 priests. That's being extremely generous in terms of 1) no priests ever packing it in 2) the health/life expectancy of every priest. There's also the fact that as there are less and less priests, the notion of joining the priesthood surely will become less attractive, so I would be surprised if even the 12 priests a year would be maintained.

Basically if the Church goes from a position where there is 4000 priests currently to something like 600 there is no way that its influence will not be seriously affected.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

Have you ever had a chance to seen the inside of a school at any point since the founding of the state?

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

swampgas

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The Church is highly influential alright but they have no authority to demand anything. Its it the government that the people* elect that make the decisions.

*people who are every day becoming less and less religious

This is a valid point, as it is the government that has given power to the church, and the government can take that power away again.

However right now the church does have some influence - especially in the institutions it has some control over. Applicants for most primary school teaching positions often have to be (or pretend to be) Catholic to get a position. Parents of children trying to get into most primary schools often have to do the same.

Look at the current campaign by the RCC to bully TDs into voting against the abortion legislation - they are interfering in our democracy. They can do this because they still have some influence over people, and thus indirectly over TDs and the government.

IMO this forum is not really about debating this issue directly with the RCC - it is about debating the issues with other people living in the country. The real problem is that almost every Irish voter today has been indoctrinated in a Catholic school, and has been immersed in a culture of Catholic baptisms, weddings and funerals. Getting many Irish people to see that there is anything wrong with Catholic influence is a bit like trying to deprogram people who have been brainwashed in a cult.

The apologists keep coming on here, defending the churches record, defending the value of religion, defending the status quo, refusing to accept that the Roman Catholic Church has way too much influence in the running of the state. These are the people the church has successfully brainwashed during their formative years to be its lifelong supporters.
They frequently complain that atheists have nothing better to do than "obsess" about religion, while refusing to accept that maybe atheists have a point and maybe the religion they are so keen to defend should NOT be imposed in a compulsory fashion on every child and adult in the land.

kylith

jimd2 wrote: »

Considering the poor state of the Catholic Church (as you and others see it) I wonder why you continue to be so obsessed with it?

You are an atheist and so why do you give a sh!t about anything to do with the church? Yet you are sufficiently interested (or obsessed more like) that you have to go on to an atheists forum and repeat your various obsessive rants about the church to an audience that is essentially an open door and agree with everything you say!

Well, let me see (like this hasn't been said in a million threads already): Does the church continue to try to tell me and other non-Christians who we can and can't marry? Why, yes it does. Does it have a virtual stranglehold over education in this country? I do believe it does! Have RCC traditions become so entrenched in the Irish psyche that you're expected to adhere to them whether or not your a member of said church? My goodness, another yes! Does the RCC try to tell me what I can do with my own body and how I should feel, act, and think about said body? Gracious me, it does.

Lets say this slowly, so we don't have to say it again.
When the Catholic church bogs off and keeps its nose out of other peoples' business then we will stop bitching about them.

joseph brand

kylith wrote: »

Lets say this slowly, so we don't have to say it again.
When the Catholic church bogs off and keeps its nose out of other peoples' business then we will stop bitching about them.

Could I just add to that:
When the church stops being insane and preaching blind, willful ignorance as a virtue, when they quit telling our children fairy tales in school, when they quit being homophobic and misogynistic, when they stop raping children and thwarting attempts to prosecute guilty clergy, and when the RCC keeps it's ancient nose out of our political matters, then maybe I will refrain from moaning and attacking this proverbial ball and chain attached to this island.

There was some report mentioned on Newstalk this morning, which looked at primary school education in 70 countries, and it said that Ireland was second only to Israel in the amount of time spent on religion in school. Probably deserves it's own thread, but I can't find a link to the report.

It probably goes without saying, that we are pretty low down the list when it comes to teaching Science.

Dades

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

How about 1/2 an hour a day with 4-5 year olds to teach them whatever they want to teach is true? Out of a 3 1/2 hour day.

Sounds like an authoritative position to me. What other organisation has the door opened to them to instill their worldview on a child of this age and throughout their entire school life?

Kidchameleon

Dades wrote: »

How about 1/2 an hour a day with 4-5 year olds to teach them whatever they want to teach is true? Out of a 3 1/2 hour day.

Sounds like an authoritative position to me. What other organisation has the door opened to them to instill their worldview on a child of this age and throughout their entire school life?

100% agree with you, but again its the idiots in charge we should be blaming on this. The church can have whatever opinion it wants, everyone is entitled to that, but why are they allowed to get away with teaching it in schools?

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Have you ever had a chance to seen the inside of a school at any point since the founding of the state?

Obviously.

Not obvious to me, from your unfamiliarity with Irish schools.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

Well, apart from the involuntary, socially-mandated indoctrination of trusting children with a range of irrational and mostly anti-social ideas, the unconscionable control of the nation's primary schools by an organization with the child-care history of the Catholic Church, the total waste of innumerable hours and unbelievable amounts of energy, the willful dishonesty of the whole sorry enterprise, the continual violation of Article 44, Section 2.2 of the Irish Constitution ("The State guarantees not to endow any religion."), yes, I suppose there are the statues of gloriously (and helpfully) dead men and women. And some crosses too.

But other than all of that, sure, isn't church control of schools a grand thing, eh? Lovely men, the lot of them and they wouldn't lie about a bit of it, now would they

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

If my soon to be 7 year old granddaughter heard you say that you would be subjected to a well deserved rant about the amount of time she has to spend in school hearing about littlebabyjesus and holymarymotherofgod and how little time she gets to spend on reading, writing and maths (which she loves) and the complete lack of any kind of science. We do all of that in my house. We have made 'volcanoes', sucked eggs into bottles by creating a vacuum, suspended eggs in saline solutions, stuck balloons to our heads using static electricity etc etc. All easy to do using inexpensive household product experiments which could be done in schools even with little kids. But no - it's far more 'important' that she will spend most of 1st class doing communion prep...:rolleyes:

It was on the news last night that the only 'developed' country that spends more time on religion in school than Ireland is Israel. You know - Israel: a country that not only has a State religion but was created for people of a specific religion.

We arn't meant to have a State religion... HA, I say to that!

ardmacha

Religion unlike a sport or hobby tends to dictate a morality to it's followers and as I live in a mostly wonderful democracy, my fellow citizens and I most try and come up with a group morality for our country and as I find the moral code imposed on members of the RCC by it's head abhorrent

Oh right, so if your fellow citizens and you come up with a group morality, that's a good thing. If another group have a group morality that's abhorrent. Not at all dogmatic.

kylith

ardmacha wrote: »

Oh right, so if your fellow citizens and you come up with a group morality, that's a good thing. If another group have a group morality that's abhorrent. Not at all dogmatic.

Citizens democratically deciding what is and is not permissible in their society is one thing. A group of men following rules from two millennia ago non-democratically attempting to dictate morals to those who do not follow their religion, especially when said group has been shown to be largely morally bankrupt, is quite another.

Sarky

Bannasidhe wrote: »

stuck balloons to our heads using static electricity

A year or two ago at a games convention we had a competition to see how many balloons people could stick to my head with static electricity. We managed 5 or 6 of the buggers. Good times, good times...

ardmacha

Citizens democratically deciding what is and is not permissible in their society is one thing. A group of men following rules from two millennia ago non-democratically attempting to dictate morals to those who do not follow their religion, especially when said group has been shown to be largely morally bankrupt, is quite another.

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Bannasidhe

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Thousands of years is pushing it a bit unless you mean Judaism not Christianity which was very much a minority (and despised) religion up until about 1500 years ago.

Does burning and torturing anyone who were suspected of having some reservations count as part of this 'moral philosophy'? Because that is what happened.
Murdering hundreds of thousands of people for possibly doubting is a fine way to organise a society.

Boards.ie is informing Ireland's societal norms now? Oh, well done us...although I hope it's not the bigoted trolls one finds in AH and certain other forums but I fear it is.

kylith

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Who said anything about Boards? I certainly didn't. What are you on about?

However (mod dictatorship though it might be ) Boards is, at least, a place of debate, discussion, and discourse, unlike organised religion.

robindch

ardmacha wrote: »

Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

Given that the only aim of the various corrupt and corrupting "moral philosophies" was to sustain various bronze-age religions and their gold- and jewel-encrusted cheerleaders, while legitimizing the rulers who funded them, while literally hanging the people on the bottom who ultimately had to pay for and endure the whole sorry spectacle, I'm inclined to think that there are far worse places than boards.ie to debate philosophies and determine, understand and acquire a decent ethical understanding of life.

It sure isn't debated to this extent in any catholic-controlled schools or other places that I'm aware of.

swampgas

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

How did you manage to interpret "Citizens democratically deciding what is and is not permissible in their society" as "Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society" ???

Given your apparent penchant for the value of "thousands of years of moral philosophy" (whatever that is), would you prefer to live in a theocracy?

Delirium

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

I'm afraid you don't, as is evident by the rest of your post.

People are complaining about Christians attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians. I fail to see what is so unreasonable about expressing their problem with such an idea.

Bannasidhe

koth wrote: »

I'm afraid you don't, as is evident by the rest of your post.

People are complaining about Christians attempting to impose Christian dogma onto non-Christians. I fail to see what is so unreasonable about express their problem with such an idea.

Because they arn't allowed to torture and burn us now and it's all the fault of boards and it's just not fair (or possibly philosophically moral)?

Kidchameleon

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If my soon to be 7 year old granddaughter heard you say that you would be subjected to a well deserved rant about the amount of time she has to spend in school hearing about littlebabyjesus and holymarymotherofgod and how little time she gets to spend on reading, writing and maths (which she loves) and the complete lack of any kind of science. We do all of that in my house. We have made 'volcanoes', sucked eggs into bottles by creating a vacuum, suspended eggs in saline solutions, stuck balloons to our heads using static electricity etc etc. All easy to do using inexpensive household product experiments which could be done in schools even with little kids. But no - it's far more 'important' that she will spend most of 1st class doing communion prep...:rolleyes:

It was on the news last night that the only 'developed' country that spends more time on religion in school than Ireland is Israel. You know - Israel: a country that not only has a State religion but was created for people of a specific religion.

We arn't meant to have a State religion... HA, I say to that!

I agree its a waste of time to teach any religion in school. It should he kept outside. Any child can choose not to partake in religion class so I would suggest your grand daughters parents have a word with the school if its a problem for her.

joseph brand

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah I see now. Informing your opinions from boards.ie as what is and is not permissible in their society is a good thing. Informing your opinions from thousands of years of moral philosophy isn't.

It took thousands of years of moral philosophy to come up with the idea that:

• A woman should stay at home, have 10+ kids and be 'ready' for her husband, whenever he felt the urge.
  
• A child born out of wedlock, meant the mother earned herself a harsh sentence of indefinite slave labour while the child was sent off to an orphanage, to be abused.
  
• Schools run by the brothers, or the nuns, could beat the crap out of small children and rape and sexually abuse them at will. Such was the power of the 'blessed' church.
  
• The gay community would be the downfall of the human race.
  
• Even small children are sinners.
  
• It doesn't matter what appalling, horrendous actions you're guilty of, a simple oul repent/ confession followed by some mumbling to yourself would clear you of any wrongdoing. Magical cleansing.

I've missed a few points, but you get the idea. 2,000 year old goat herders are 'surprisingly' not a good source for morals.

SebBerkovich

joseph brand wrote: »

It took thousands of years of moral philosophy to come up with the idea that:

• A woman should stay at home, have 10+ kids and be 'ready' for her husband, whenever he felt the urge.
  
• A child born out of wedlock, meant the mother earned herself a harsh sentence of indefinite slave labour while the child was sent off to an orphanage, to be abused.
  
• Schools run by the brothers, or the nuns, could beat the crap out of small children and rape and sexually abuse them at will. Such was the power of the 'blessed' church.
  
• The gay community would be the downfall of the human race.
  
• Even small children are sinners.
  
• It doesn't matter what appalling, horrendous actions you're guilty of, a simple oul repent/ confession followed by some mumbling to yourself would clear you of any wrongdoing. Magical cleansing.

I've missed a few points, but you get the idea. 2,000 year old goat herders are 'surprisingly' not a good source for morals.

Don't forget Slavery! God was delighted with that idea, probably because it's so great for the economy.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I agree its a waste of time to teach any religion in school. It should he kept outside. Any child can choose not to partake in religion class so I would suggest your grand daughters parents have a word with the school if its a problem for her.

Yeah - they say that but in reality this means the child is removed from the classroom like they are being punished (son used to call it the walk of shaming) or else sit there but completely excluded. Experience and many many fights with school principles means I know of what I speak.
In one school where my son was 'not partaking' this consisted of him sitting in the corridor on his own. By 5th/6th class he 'partook' by asking awkward questions which he found to be very enjoyable. They didn't kick him out as when the priest came to visit guess which pupil could answer all of those 'what do we believe' questions and that made the teacher look good.

Why should any child be excluded from participating in the class in a State funded school?

Teach religion outside the school = remove need for students not to partake plus more time for actual education. Simples.

However, the point is that it is a lot more than a few crucifixes on the wall and a couple of mumbles prayer. It is woven into the fabric of the education system in a most insidious way. Already grandson - who is in pre-school ffs - is coming out with holygoddiedforme crap. He only turned 4 last week and they are filling his head with this bull - and, unlike his sister, he isn't really the critical analysis type so he is buying it hook, line and sinker.

lazygal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Already grandson - who is in pre-school ffs - is coming out with holygoddiedforme crap. He only turned 4 last week and they are filling his head with this bull - and, unlike his sister, he isn't really the critical analysis type so he is buying it hook, line and sinker.

Preschools should be easy enough in terms of secular options though, in fairness. Most are privately, rather than church, run and managed. I have a background in the sector and it'd be the exception rather than the rule for a preschool to have a religious ethos. I know of community ones where the local PP is a patron or whatever but the majority would be quite secular - they might have a Christmas concert but only do Rudolf type songs and would take account of all belief systems.

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

Preschools should be easy enough in terms of secular options though, in fairness. Most are privately, rather than church, run and managed. I have a background in the sector and it'd be the exception rather than the rule for a preschool to have a religious ethos. I know of community ones where the local PP is a patron or whatever but the majority would be quite secular - they might have a Christmas concert but only do Rudolf type songs and would take account of all belief systems.

They live in an arsehole small town in Clare and the pre-school is attached to the local NS and tbh...their mother really is..um...a lazy gal (:p)..so wouldn't be prepared to walk an extra yard to avoid indoctrination.

lazygal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

They live in an arsehole small town in Clare and the pre-school is attached to the local NS and tbh...their mother really is..um...a lazy gal (:p)..so wouldn't be prepared to walk an extra yard to avoid indoctrination.

Ah I see. In fairness, when I was teaching there were no religious doctrine modules in our course, we covered culture, and religious knowledge as part of that, but most of the services I'd know would be pretty secular, and parents wouldn't be shy about making sure there was no prayer stuff going on.

Doctor Strange

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Obviously. Whats your point? That theirs a few statues and the odd crucifix?

They fill children's heads full of bull****. My sister (5) was quite inquisitive about the origin of everything before she started into school. After her first year there her answer is now "Holy God did it". It's quite disheartening, tbh.