"Ireland’s priests will have almost disappeared in 20 years"

kylith

jank wrote: »

Stalin wasn't an atheist? Most people here went to some form of catholic upbringing, does that mean your not an athesit, using your own rational? Foot in mouth there

The belt buckle with the words "God be with us" was a traditional motto used by the Teutons and adopted by the Prussian military which remained through WWI and WWII. It was not adopted overnight by the Nazis as you were insinuating therefore. In fact only the whermacht wore that belt buckle, the more fanatical National socialists who commited more war crimes joined the Waffen SS who wore a belt buckle with the words "Meine Ehre heißt Treue ('My honour is loyalty'). Which I presume was Hitler (a man) and the fatherland. And yes I did read the wiki as I have seen that nugget thrown out a few times on this board.

Not having known Stalin personally I can't vouch for how he felt in his later years, but when he was younger it's safe to say that it appears he was quite religious.

As for the Nazis, here's a fun game: it's a quote guessing game called Pope or Hitler.

jank

kylith wrote: »

Not having known Stalin personally I can't vouch for how he felt in his later years, but when he was younger it's safe to say that it appears he was quite religious.

As for the Nazis, here's a fun game: it's a quote guessing game called Pope or Hitler.

So basically you can't refute any of my points and ignore established history. No rational here.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

jank wrote: »

So basically you can't refute any of my points and ignore established history. No rational here.

he's an atheist. it's calling debating when we do it.

Brian Shanahan

Gumbi wrote: »

That's a bit strong, isn't it?

It's the truth. You should look up Swiss banking law some time. For example it is still a crime to go to the authorities if you know someone has deposited proceeds of crime into a Swiss bank account.

jank wrote: »

I wouldn't call the Swiss religious. Would you call Russians religious yet they are extremely anti gay. Correlation does not imply causation.

A) Switzerland is religious still.
The position of the orthodox church in Russia is analogous to that of the wahhabi mullahs in Saudi Arabia, as is the level of crazy misogyny.

jank wrote: »

So basically you can't refute any of my points and ignore established history. No rational here.

History has established Hitler's christianity, along with that of every leading Nazi (the highest ranking non-christian Nazi was Alfred Rosenberg, an embarrasing non-entity for the Nazis). You are calling Hitler an atheist. Who is it here that is ignoring established history?

I'll give you a clue; it is the person who has trolled 8,746 times on this forum.

Gumbi

I'm not saying it isn't a factor, I'm saying to cite it as such a pillar in their economy is a bit hyperbolic. Their economy is very modern, pharmaceuticals etc. They value education very highly.

endacl

Look. For all the arguing about this, that, and the other, the fact remains that the the catholic priest (mumbojumbio latinicuus) was an introduced, non- native species that played havoc with the indigenous population. The decline of M.Latinicuus is simply nature redressing balance in the ecosystem.

Brian Shanahan

Gumbi wrote: »

I'm not saying it isn't a factor, I'm saying to cite it as such a pillar in their economy is a bit hyperbolic. Their economy is very modern, pharmaceuticals etc. They value education very highly.

Well considering that debts held by Swiss banks are 260% of Swiss GDP, I'd bet you couldn't possibly overestimate the value of money-laundering, proceeds of crime and tax evasion to the Swiss economy.

Gumbi

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Well considering that debts held by Swiss banks are 260% of Swiss GDP, I'd bet you couldn't possibly overestimate the value of money-laundering, proceeds of crime and tax evasion to the Swiss economy.

It doesn't mean their entire economy is based on they way they run their banks, though. That's all I'm saying.

recedite

jank wrote: »

Eh no it's not..

Yes it is. Not for much longer though, the USA and EU are piling on the pressure. Within a few years their banks will be forced to either act responsibly or shut down, and then the Swiss will join the EU.

robindch

jank wrote: »

You can blame the strong arm of Putin for that not the Russian Orthodox Church. Anyway point stands you don't have to be religious to hate gays, just ask the Nazis how gassed them by the thousands or Stalin who criminalised homosexuality in 1933. What god did Stalin obey here?

What a massive pile of Poe.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

What a massive pile of Poe.

Lordy but that stinks rob, godwin it.

Brian Shanahan

Gumbi wrote: »

It doesn't mean their entire economy is based on they way they run their banks, though. That's all I'm saying.

You'd be suprised how much their legal system revolves around the idea that banks need to be protected from the consequences of their illegal actions though.

jank

recedite wrote: »

Yes it is. Not for much longer though, the USA and EU are piling on the pressure. Within a few years their banks will be forced to either act responsibly or shut down, and then the Swiss will join the EU.

The EU are going to force them to join? Whatever about their banks, that is not going to happen.

jank

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It's the truth. You should look up Swiss banking law some time. For example it is still a crime to go to the authorities if you know someone has deposited proceeds of crime into a Swiss bank account.

The finance sector makes up 11.6% of Swiss GDP, therefore 88.4% of Swiss GDP is non finance related. Looking at the numbers logically and rantionaly one cannot with any creadiable messaure state that "Their economy is still based upon hiding huge quantities of dodgy money in their banks, no questions asked" To do so is just logically wrong.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

A) Switzerland is religious still.
.

And?

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The position of the orthodox church in Russia is analogous to that of the wahhabi mullahs in Saudi Arabia, as is the level of crazy misogyny.
.

Russia was pretty much atheist for a good 80 years due to the Soviet Union. Where did this all powerful entitiy come from all of a sudden?

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

History has established Hitler's christianity, along with that of every leading Nazi (the highest ranking non-christian Nazi was Alfred Rosenberg, an embarrasing non-entity for the Nazis).

Every leading Nazi? Em... what about Himmler arugably Hitlers number two and the leader of the SS?

Himmler was interested in mysticism and the occult from an early age. He tied this interest into his racist philosophy, looking for proof of Aryan and Nordic racial superiority from ancient times. He promoted a cult of ancestor worship, particularly among members of the SS, as a way to keep the race pure and provide immortality to the nation.

Viewing the SS as an "order" along the lines of the Teutonic Knights, he had them take over the Church of the Teutonic Order in Vienna in 1939. He began the process of replacing Christianity with a new moral code that rejected humanitarianism and challenged the Christian concept of marriage.[179] The Ahnenerbe, a research society founded by Himmler in 1935, conducted research all over the globe to look for proof of the superiority and ancient origins of the Germanic race.[180][181]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler#Mysticism_and_symbolism

And the funniest thing of all. Hitler a Christan? LOL

Born to a practicing Catholic mother and an anticlerical father, after leaving home, Hitler never again attended Mass or received the sacraments.[344][345][346] Speer states that Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church to his political associates and though he never officially left it, he had no attachment to it.[347] He adds that Hitler felt that in the absence of the church the faithful would turn to mysticism, which he considered a step backwards.[347] Historian John S. Conway states that Hitler was fundamentally opposed to the Christian churches.[348] According to Bullock, Hitler did not believe in God, was anticlerical, and held Christian ethics in contempt because they contravened his preferred view of "survival of the fittest."[349]

Hitler viewed Protestant clergy as insignificant and submissive.[350] While hostile to its teachings, he had admiration for the power of the Roman Church.[351] He favoured aspects of Protestantism that suited his own views, and adopted some elements of the Catholic Church's hierarchical organisation, liturgy, and phraseology in his politics.[352]

Hitler viewed the church as an important politically conservative influence on society,[353] and he adopted a strategic relationship with it "that suited his immediate political purposes."[348] In public, Hitler often praised Christian heritage and German Christian culture, though professing a belief in an "Aryan" Jesus—one who fought against the Jews.[354] Any pro-Christian public rhetoric was at variance with his personal beliefs, which described Christianity as "absurdity"[355] and humbug founded on lies[356] with which he could "never come personally to terms."[357] He considered Christianity a religion fit only for slaves.[351]

According to a US Office of Strategic Services report, "The Nazi Master Plan," Hitler planned to destroy the influence of Christian churches within the Reich.[358][359] His eventual goal was the total elimination of Christianity.[360] This goal informed Hitler's movement very early on, but he saw it as inexpedient to express this extreme position publicly.[361] According to Bullock, Hitler wanted to wait until after the war before executing this plan.[351]

Speer wrote that Hitler had a negative view of Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg's mystical notions and Himmler's attempt to mythologise the SS. Hitler was more pragmatic, and his ambitions centred on more practical concerns.[362][363]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_views

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You are calling Hitler an atheist. Who is it here that is ignoring established history?.

I am afraid you are the one ignoring established history, see above. By the way I never directly called Hitler an Atheist (please show me where?) as I do know there there is a debate whether he believed in a 'god' or not (Regards Stalin the jury is in that he was an Atheist). However to claim that we was a Christan is laughable, dishonest in trying to score cheap points, factually incorrect and plain idiotic.

What I did say however was that the Nazi's (or other regimes like the Khemer Rouge) did NOT subscribe to a religious text or theology in their destruction of Europes homosexuals and other undesirables a point lost on many and my original point in this very thread.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I'll give you a clue; it is the person who has trolled 8,746 times on this forum.

Well done!

jank

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

he's an atheist. it's calling debating when we do it.

Pretty poor standard of debate if one has to come out with this gem.

Not having known Stalin personally I can't vouch for how he felt in his later years, but when he was younger it's safe to say that it appears he was quite religious

The poster ignores the historical consensus that Stalin was an atheist by claiming that he didnt 'know the guy personally' and then in the same sentence without breaking sweat comes up with the claim that he "appeared" to be religious when he was young. WTF? Classic bait and switch. Its feel like I am talking to creationists sometimes!

Sarky

Oh you!

Hotblack Desiato

jank wrote: »

The EU are going to force them to join? Whatever about their banks, that is not going to happen.

Nobody said that, and it is impossible, but thanks for pointing out the obvious.

What will happen is that (predominantly US) pressure will force them to reform their banking system. At that point, there will be no obstacle to, and no reason not to, join the EU and it would give them influence over decisions they've agreed to obey anyway.

jank

The Swiss are notorioursly independant, hardworking and private which many base their success on. If you look up neutral in the dictionary you will find a picture of Switzerland next to the word. I am sure many people here would value some of these traits especially what we have learned recently regarding government programs to spy en-mass on its citizens.

I just can't see the Swiss joining the EU in my lifetime. Why would they? Look at the mess that the EU is at the moment? Unemployment rate is currently only 3% while the socialist mecca that is France is almost 400% higher at 11%, nevermind looking at Spain or Ireland. The Swiss have one of the highest standards of living in the world with a debt to GDP ratio of under 30%. Not bad for a country that had no natural resources to work with and locked in my mountains. To be honest, the vast majority here would trade its economy for Ireland in a hearbeat.

Recent polls suggest 82% are against resuming talks of accession to the EU.
http://www.thelocal.ch/20120524/3386

When they held a referendum back in 1992 to join it was defeated by the tiniest of margins.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20579029
Many I believe are lucky they dodged 'that' bullet.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

The Swiss are notorioursly independant, hardworking and private which many base their success on. If you look up neutral in the dictionary you will find a picture of Switzerland next to the word. I am sure many people here would value some of these traits especially what we have learned recently regarding government programs to spy en-mass on its citizens.

I just can't see the Swiss joining the EU in my lifetime. Why would they? Look at the mess that the EU is at the moment? Unemployment rate is currently only 3% while the socialist mecca that is France is almost 400% higher at 11%, nevermind looking at Spain or Ireland. The Swiss have one of the highest standards of living in the world with a debt to GDP ratio of under 30%. Not bad for a country that had no natural resources to work with and locked in my mountains. To be honest, the vast majority here would trade its economy for Ireland in a hearbeat.

Recent polls suggest 82% are against resuming talks of accession to the EU.
http://www.thelocal.ch/20120524/3386

When they held a referendum back in 1992 to join it was defeated by the tiniest of margins.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20579029
Many I believe are lucky they dodged 'that' bullet.

The Swiss were/are mercenaries who worked out that it was easier and more cost effective to simply mind the loot in their own territory than schelp around Europe trying to guard it in what ever city state their client was attempting to defend/attack.

However, your endless wikipedia links not withstanding (haven't we discussed why the use of wikipedia as a historical source is a no-no Jank?...I'm sure we did.), the reason the topic of Switzerland came up is because I mentioned that my Swiss niece was subjected to religiously inspired homophobic abuse at the wedding of a friend by Swiss people she has know all her life in the very same Swiss town she grew up in - a Swiss town that also houses a very large RCC seminary and is famed for the number of Swiss guards who hail from the immediate region.

She was shocked and horrified by the way people whose children she grew up with, whose houses she played in, whose tables she had dined at and who had been happy to allow their children to do likewise at her house suddenly and without warning turned on her and publicly condemned her because she said ' This is my girlfriend'.

She hadn't changed. She was and is the same person. Their perception of her changed and she became anathema - All because their religion said she is...

Did the Priest step in and defend her?
Did he speak of Christian love?
Did he even trot out the old 'love the sinner hate the sin' BS?

No. He spoke about the threat to the 'family' posed by sexual deviants as a 25 year old woman had the spittle of a neighbour running down her face and no one - not one person - was 'independent' enough to come forward and defend her.

I lived in Switzerland and never, in all of the countries I have lived, have I encountered such a nation of paranoid conformists. Their motto should be 'oh no, you can't do that or they will fine you.'

Now, I imagine that you will link a wikipedia article that shows this did not happen...

robindch

jank wrote: »

Its feel like I am talking to creationists sometimes!

jank wrote: »

Pretty poor standard of debate if one has to come out with this gem.

Indeed.

kylith

jank wrote: »

The poster ignores the historical consensus that Stalin was an atheist by claiming that he didnt 'know the guy personally' and then in the same sentence without breaking sweat comes up with the claim that he "appeared" to be religious when he was young. WTF? Classic bait and switch. Its feel like I am talking to creationists sometimes!

It is nigh-on impossible to say whether Stalin actually was an atheist, or whether he did believe in a deity but saw religion as a competitor to his own cult of personality.

http://freethoughtnation.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=334%3Awere-stalin-hitler-and-pol-pot-atheists wrote:

As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more. As Stalin biographer Edvard Radinsky remarks, "During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected."

http://hollowverse.com/joseph-stalin/ wrote:

But during World War II, Stalin eased up considerably on religion. He allowed for tens of thousands of Russian Orthodox churches to reopen, adopted an official policy of tolerance toward Muslims and re-established the hierarchy of leadership in the Russian Orthodox Church. There were even rumors that Stalin had reconsidered his own personal relationship to religion when he took a “mysterious retreat” in 1941.1

Hitler, on the other hand, seems to have been a definite theist from statements like

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

and

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

So to try to claim that he was an atheist, especially when he himself said that he was a Christian and saw himself as doing God's work by eradicating the Jews, is just silly.



Hitler quotes: http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/ http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

Gumbi

I don't fully agree with you about Hitler Kylith. He apparently stately privately that he had no regard for the Church etc and wasn't truly religious. But, the important thing is, he was publically religious, and justified what he did by saying what you quoted above. By qualifying what he did thusly, it makes it no better IMO.

kylith

Gumbi wrote: »

I don't fully agree with you about Hitler Kylith. He apparently stately privately that he had no regard for the Church etc and wasn't truly religious. But, the important thing is, he was publically religious, and justified what he did by saying what you quoted above. By qualifying what he did thusly, it makes it no better IMO.

As I said before, you can't really know what a person's views are unless you know them personally, and even then you can't be sure. How many times have we had people on this forum tell us that they found out that their Gran was a secret atheist and no-one ever suspected?

With Hitler we can only go on what he said, and he said he was a Christian. Whether he was lying when he said he was in order to justify his actions to his troops, or whether was lying when he said in private that he wasn't theist is something that only Hitler knew.

Gumbi

kylith wrote: »

As I said before, you can't really know what a person's views are unless you know them personally, and even then you can't be sure. How many times have we had people on this forum tell us that they found out that their Gran was a secret atheist and no-one ever suspected?

With Hitler we can only go on what he said, and he said he was a Christian. Whether he was lying when he said he was in order to justify his actions to his troops, or whether was lying when he said in private that he wasn't theist is something that only Hitler knew.

Oh, I agree. What am saying is though, it's irrelevant whether he himself was a theist or not, what does matter is that he justified it with theistic proclaimations. Bit of semantics but I like to be precise. :P

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Swiss were/are mercenaries who worked out that it was easier and more cost effective to simply mind the loot in their own territory than schelp around Europe trying to guard it in what ever city state their client was attempting to defend/attack.

However, your endless wikipedia links not withstanding (haven't we discussed why the use of wikipedia as a historical source is a no-no Jank?...I'm sure we did.), the reason the topic of Switzerland came up is because I mentioned that my Swiss niece was subjected to religiously inspired homophobic abuse at the wedding of a friend by Swiss people she has know all her life in the very same Swiss town she grew up in - a Swiss town that also houses a very large RCC seminary and is famed for the number of Swiss guards who hail from the immediate region.

She was shocked and horrified by the way people whose children she grew up with, whose houses she played in, whose tables she had dined at and who had been happy to allow their children to do likewise at her house suddenly and without warning turned on her and publicly condemned her because she said ' This is my girlfriend'.

She hadn't changed. She was and is the same person. Their perception of her changed and she became anathema - All because their religion said she is...

Did the Priest step in and defend her?
Did he speak of Christian love?
Did he even trot out the old 'love the sinner hate the sin' BS?

No. He spoke about the threat to the 'family' posed by sexual deviants as a 25 year old woman had the spittle of a neighbour running down her face and no one - not one person - was 'independent' enough to come forward and defend her.

I lived in Switzerland and never, in all of the countries I have lived, have I encountered such a nation of paranoid conformists. Their motto should be 'oh no, you can't do that or they will fine you.'

Now, I imagine that you will link a wikipedia article that shows this did not happen...

So one personal experience and you are ready to condemn the entire country as no better than say Saudi Arabia in its social tolerance? How many gays have they killed recently for example.
Also, tell me how do you know that they treated her that way because religion told 'em to. People can be dicks with or without religion as per reference National Socialism in Germany and Soviet Russia.
Anyway, this is all ancedotal, which I would imagine is worse than wikipedia?

jank

kylith wrote: »

It is nigh-on impossible to say whether Stalin actually was an atheist, or whether he did believe in a deity but saw religion as a competitor to his own cult of personality.

Hitler, on the other hand, seems to have been a definite theist from statements like

and

So to try to claim that he was an atheist, especially when he himself said that he was a Christian and saw himself as doing God's work by eradicating the Jews, is just silly.



Hitler quotes: http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/ http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

It is generally regarded as historcial fact that Stalin was an Atheist, even Dawkins admits this. Hitler as I have already mentioned publicly professed a faith but in private dismissed it. Read my quotes.

Anyway what ever about who was or wasnt athiest I would not put too much trust in the author of an opinion piece whos work is used in the "Zeitgeist" documentary.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

So one personal experience and you are ready to condemn the entire country as no better than say Saudi Arabia in its social tolerance? How many gays have they killed recently for example.
Also, tell me how do you know that they treated her that way because religion told 'em to. People can be dicks with or without religion as per reference National Socialism in Germany and Soviet Russia.
Anyway, this is all ancedotal, which I would imagine is worse than wikipedia?

Where did I condemn an entire country exactly? I also never mentioned Saudi Arabia or any where else so I am not sure how I could have drawn any comparison between the two.

I commented on one region - not even a Canton never mind a whole country.

I stated that the region the Swiss Guards traditionally hail from is a deeply Catholic and Conservative region - which they do not dispute.
I know this because I lived there.

The historical reason for their fervid Catholic conservatism is that during the Reformation the nearest city of importance was Calvin's Geneva. They formed their identity at a time of religious war, turmoil and in opposition to what was happening down the road. They just haven't moved on much since then. In fact, they are quite proud of that fact and don't require you to defend them.


Step away from the hyperbole there jank.

Yes, people can be dicks (like I need you to tell me that) but these particular dicks to whom I referred to used their religion to justify being dicks and turning on a young woman to publicly vilify her.

Do you think that is a justifiable reason to be a dick and publicly bully and humiliate someone?

Or are you going for the 'well other people can be dicks too' defense?

Either way, you are defending the indefensible by trying to use distraction and whataboutry - wikipedia or no wikipedia, that's a fail.

jank

kylith wrote: »

As I said before, you can't really know what a person's views are unless you know them personally, and even then you can't be sure. How many times have we had people on this forum tell us that they found out that their Gran was a secret atheist and no-one ever suspected?.

Just to run with this, Albert Speer was mentioned in the quotes I gave you and he was one of Hitler most trusted friends and confidants

kylith wrote: »

With Hitler we can only go on what he said, and he said he was a Christian. Whether he was lying when he said he was in order to justify his actions to his troops, or whether was lying when he said in private that he wasn't theist is something that only Hitler knew.

You are really being deliberiately obtuse here with this. One must look at all the evidence and make a judgment. As I said before there is debate here what is his actual views and beliefs were but to state categorically that he was an Atheist or true Christian is not logical given the evidence.

Even if what you say is true and no well regarded historian has ever come out and said Hitler was religious, did he do what he did because god told him to? Did he kill an estimate 10,000 homosexuals because it was in the bible or some other holy book? The answer to latter is a resounding no. He did it for racial purity and social darwanism.

In A Short History of Christianity, the historian Geoffrey Blainey wrote that Hitler and his Fascist ally Mussolini were atheists, but that Hitler courted and benefited from fear among German Christians of militant Communist atheism.[64] "The aggressive spread of atheism in the Soviet Union alarmed many German Christians", wrote Blainey, and with the National Socialists becoming the main opponent of Communism in Germany: "[Hitler] himself saw Christianity as a temporary ally, for in his opinion 'one is either a Christian or a German'. To be both was impossible. Nazism itself was a religion, a pagan religion, and Hitler was its high priest... Its high altar [was] Germany itself and the German people, their soil and forests and language and traditions".[64]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

As I said before, you can't really know what a person's views are unless you know them personally, and even then you can't be sure. How many times have we had people on this forum tell us that they found out that their Gran was a secret atheist and no-one ever suspected?

Just to run with this, Albert Speer was mentioned in the quotes I gave you and he was one of Hitler most trusted friends and confidants



You are really being deliberiately obtuse here with this. One must look at all the evidence and make a judgment. As I said before there is debate here what is his actual views and beliefs were but to state categorically that he was an Atheist or true Christian is not logical given the evidence.

Even if what you say is true and no well regarded historian has ever come out and said Hitler was religious, did he do what he did because god told him to? Did he kill an estimate 10,000 homosexuals because it was in the bible or some other holy book? The answer to latter is a resounding no. He did it for racial purity and social darwanism.

social darwanism?

It that like thread godwinism?

Sarky

You'll know what happiness is one day, jank. I believe in you.