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Prime Time Special - Child Care in Ireland (No Downloads - Please Read Post #1)

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    #302
    Paulegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭Paulegend


    its a shame that those who missed it have no way of seeing it. i love reading comments above from people on their high horses talking about if we wanted to see it badly enough we would have recorded it but are shocked at the idea of it being available for the masses to view online.

    this is an issue that should be shown over and over. it should be used as an example of care facilities in this country. it wasnt a broadcast for the privilaged few who where not busy on a tuesday evening but it should be made aware to the whole country and to anyone who will listen all over the world as an example of behaviour that should not be tolerated.

    i missed the show last night. i wanted to see it but my girlfriend didnt want to as it would upset her so i was thinking ill just watch it later on rte player. i didnt see any release about it not being on the player and didnt look for a release saying so as i wouldnt if i was to watch any show. i watch the frontline on rte player so assumed there wouldnt be a problem.

    the problem i now face is that i havent seen the incidents. i hear things but am unable to view it for myself. i dont have kids yet but in the next few years i would have appreciated being in the know when it comes to this.


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    #303
    DeanAustin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭DeanAustin


    Started watching last night a bit cynical that this had been blown out of proportion but was genuinely saddened and upset by what I saw. While some of the stuff, IMO, was fairly trivial (like the phone use and daily journals), the strapping into the chairs and the tossing of the kids around like rag dolls was shocking.

    I do think that some instances could be isolated moments where the childcarers just lost it for a second and may not have been indicative of the care that the kids got from those carers generally. Like the kid who had the blanket thrown over them and was temporarily pushed to the ground or the other kid who had a toy aggressively snatched from them. Most parents, if they are honest, have done similar things. Shown in isolation, it paints a really bad picture, but I don't think those instances would be too damaging in themselves if they were one offs.

    All that said, some of the treatment was inexcusable and some of the carers shouldn't be allowed to ever work with kids. It was also very clear that some of the behaviours were systematic and not just one-offs and there are glaring holes in the system that suggest a dereliction of duty by the HSE.

    Trying not to kneejerk but with a young child who we have to make a decision about in terms of care, I can't bring myself to put him in a creche. Like all parents watching last night, I was imagining my child being treated like that and it was tough.


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    #304
    Heroditas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    DeanAustin wrote: »
    While some of the stuff, IMO, was fairly trivial (like the phone use and daily journals),

    [...]

    Trying not to kneejerk but with a young child who we have to make a decision about in terms of care, I can't bring myself to put him in a creche. Like all parents watching last night, I was imagining my child being treated like that and it was tough.


    I actually think the fabricated journals is a serious issue. Until your child is able to talk properly and tell you all about their day, the journal is supposedly your only record of the events that happen.
    If the journal is all made up, that means that there are many parents now looking at their own journals and wondering what has actually happened to their child in a creche for the last year or two.

    Like yourself though, I found it tough viewing particularly when I imagined our own daughter being subjected to that sort of treatment. I'm just so glad that she's going to be looked after by a child-minder instead of going to one of those places.


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    #305
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Tom_Cruise wrote: »
    I wanted to see it, but missed it unfortunately.

    What am i supposed to record it on, a potato? Not everyone has a fancy sky box.

    RTE issued a statement TODAY stating that they would not be showing it on the player, well thanks a lot RTE, from now on any programme that im planning on watching on the player ill just check your website to make sure that you've not just gone and cancelled it, although you are able to show all the other crap no problem.
    anniehoo wrote: »
    Patronising much??!! :rolleyes:

    I'm galled at the fact RTE have shown it on Primtime yet have refused to put it on Player.

    What are you people annoyed about? RTE clearly said that it would be shown only once. They are legally and indeed morally constrained from showing it online and repeatedly, what do you want them to do?
    Can you not just take people's word for the content (it's not like it is in dispute) and get annoyed about what was actually happening, why the need to see the gory details? That's a bit strange.


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    #306
    ronan45
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭ronan45


    Did anyone save it on their Sky box? dam missed it:mad:


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    #307
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Just overheard someone saying that they're pulling their child out of their creche this morning. I really hope calmer heads prevail over such hysteria.


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    #308
    DeanAustin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭DeanAustin


    Heroditas wrote: »
    I actually think the fabricated journals is a serious issue. Until your child is able to talk properly and tell you all about their day, the journal is supposedly your only record of the events that happen.
    If the journal is all made up, that means that there are many parents now looking at their own journals and wondering what has actually happened to their child in a creche for the last year or two.

    Like yourself though, I found it tough viewing particularly when I imagined our own daughter being subjected to that sort of treatment. I'm just so glad that she's going to be looked after by a child-minder instead of going to one of those places.

    Yeah my missus was of the same opinion so not saying I'm definitely right.

    But...throughout my ten years working in offices, I've seen stuff like that fabricated all the time. None of it massively serious but where short cuts can be taken on what is effectively paper work and formalities it's human nature that some people will take short cuts. I realise that parents see it differently but if you're someone who has their hands full with five kids, filling out a journal would be close to the bottom of your list of priorities. That said, that's just my opinion and I'm sure many parents will tell me I'm wrong.

    From my point of view, if that was the worst thing to be shown last night then the story wouldn't have made the news.


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    #309
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    Paulegend wrote: »
    its a shame that those who missed it have no way of seeing it. i love reading comments above from people on their high horses talking about if we wanted to see it badly enough we would have recorded it but are shocked at the idea of it being available for the masses to view online.

    this is an issue that should be shown over and over. it should be used as an example of care facilities in this country. it wasnt a broadcast for the privilaged few who where not busy on a tuesday evening but it should be made aware to the whole country and to anyone who will listen all over the world as an example of behaviour that should not be tolerated.

    i missed the show last night. i wanted to see it but my girlfriend didnt want to as it would upset her so i was thinking ill just watch it later on rte player. i didnt see any release about it not being on the player and didnt look for a release saying so as i wouldnt if i was to watch any show. i watch the frontline on rte player so assumed there wouldnt be a problem.

    the problem i now face is that i havent seen the incidents. i hear things but am unable to view it for myself. i dont have kids yet but in the next few years i would have appreciated being in the know when it comes to this.


    if anyone does know a download link or a stream link could you please make it available for us here. thanks

    It's a shambles that it's not available, it doesn't make any sense. The national broadcaster created a piece of journalism and unless the audience was free at a specific time they don't get to see it. At the very least it should be repeated on RTE.


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    #310
    whatawaster
    Registered Users Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What are you people annoyed about? RTE clearly said that it would be shown only once. They are legally and indeed morally constrained from showing it online and repeatedly, what do you want them to do?
    Can you not just take people's word for the content (it's not like it is in dispute) and get annoyed about what was actually happening, why the need to see the gory details? That's a bit strange.

    Clearly said?

    Where was this? The first I heard of that was when I looked on this thread.

    People don't have VCR's anymore, by and large. So unless you a) had a skybox or b) were available to watch this at a certain time last night, then you are being denied the right to see a show that is very much in the public interest. All RTE are doing here is encouraging illegal downloading of their shows. It's nonsense.


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    #311
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Don't know about anyone else but I had a bad nights sleep last night after watching that documentary am I'm not normally a sensitive person, it's really upsetting me today,fair play to rte, it's just a pity that yet again it takes a shocking tv programme to show us what's really going on.


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    #312
    Paulegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭Paulegend


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    They have repeatedly said and have just repeated it at the end of Morning Ireland that they did it because of requests from the parents, which is a pretty moral response to me.
    They could have made a lot of money had they wanted to.

    It was broadcast to air the issues in the programme which is part of their public service remit. Dammed if they do it, dammed if they don't.

    It was perfectly clear that they where not going to repeat it, Pat Keeny show mentioned yesterday, News at One and it was tagged on to previews of the show online. If you don't watch the broadcaster how would you like them to contact you...by phone, or call around to your house?

    i watched 6 one yesterday and it was advertised without any warning that it would be a once off

    i read the news i watch the news and our national broadcaster that i pay ridiculous fees to for said services failed to highlight this to me. i kept up to date with all of this news bar online forums and i didnt hear anything about it not being repeated or else i would have watched it live


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    #313
    Heroditas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    Just overheard someone saying that they're pulling their child out of their creche this morning. I really hope calmer heads prevail over such hysteria.


    How is it hysteria? It all depends on which creche they are going to.


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    #314
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    whatawaster wrote: »
    Clearly said?

    Where was this? The first I heard of that was when I looked on this thread.

    People don't have VCR's anymore, by and large. So unless you a) had a skybox or b) were available to watch this at a certain time last night, then you are being denied the right to see a show that is very much in the public interest. All RTE are doing here is encouraging illegal downloading of their shows. It's nonsense.

    You want your rights even if it means the rights of the parents involved are ignored. Very good.
    As said above, they signalled this at every oppurtunty.


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    #315
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    They have repeatedly said and have just repeated it at the end of Morning Ireland that they did it because of requests from the parents, which is a pretty moral response to me.
    They could have made a lot of money had they wanted to.

    You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you wish to believe. If you think RTE have not made money on this you are very naive.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It was broadcast to air the issues in the programme which is part of their public service remit. Dammed if they do it, dammed if they don't.

    Then why restrict the viewing?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It was perfectly clear that they where not going to repeat it, Pat Keeny show mentioned yesterday, News at One and it was tagged on to previews of the show online. If you don't watch the broadcaster how would you like them to contact you...by phone, or call around to your house?

    Not everyone watches the news or listens to the radio. Id prefer if they simply did what they do with every other program and made it available in the normal manner instead of trying to sensationalise it further by restricting access - which is the oldest trick in the book for creating controversy and talk.

    The entire country is talking about this today, other tv programs will be discussing it, radios, newspapers, social media etc... but unless you were off work or had a recording device, you couldnt see it.

    My prediction is that they will allow a bit of time to properly whip up the frenzy then announce another airing - and happily pocket the huge advertising fees that come with that.


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    #316
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Can you not just take people's word for the content (it's not like it is in dispute) and get annoyed about what was actually happening, why the need to see the gory details? That's a bit strange.

    It's strange for someone to wait outside a cinema to ask people leaving what the movie was like instead of seeing it themselves, that's why people don't do it. They'll see it themselves and make their own mind up.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    They have repeatedly said and have just repeated it at the end of Morning Ireland that they did it because of requests from the parents, which is a pretty moral response to me.
    They could have made a lot of money had they wanted to.

    It was broadcast to air the issues in the programme which is part of their public service remit. Dammed if they do it, dammed if they don't.

    You seem to mistakenly think everyone spends their day listening to or watching RTE broadcasts. Pat Kenny is on in the mornings right? They don't have the radio blaring where I work so I missed that one (and all the others).

    Even despite their repeated warnings - what are the reasons for showing something once and then not being able to show it again? Like you said public service remit - I want my 'valya'.


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    #317
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Heroditas wrote: »
    How is it hysteria? It all depends on which creche they are going to.

    If you have a child in a creche where to date you've no reason to think something is not right, and if your child is coming home without any signs of abuse or neglect, then there's no reason to panic.

    I'm not saying parents shouldn't be more vigilant now, but to pull your child out of a creche under the circumstances I mentioned and without any further investigation is just ludicrous.


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    #318
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Paulegend wrote: »
    i watched 6 one yesterday and it was advertised without any warning that it would be a once off

    i read the news i watch the news and our national broadcaster that i pay ridiculous fees to for said services failed to highlight this to me. i kept up to date with all of this news bar online forums and i didnt hear anything about it not being repeated or else i would have watched it live

    I'm almost certain 6 one mentioned it yesterday. How did I and many others manage to garner the info? If you are not paying attention it is hardly RTE's fault, or maybe it is...boycott them, don't pay your licence fee. That'll show em.
    Personally, I think they have spent my subscription well here, something will get done and children will not have to suffer similar abuse.


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    #319
    whatawaster
    Registered Users Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    If you have a child in a creche where to date you've no reason to think something is not right, and if your child is coming home without any signs of abuse or neglect, then there's no reason to panic.

    I'm not saying parents shouldn't be more vigilant now, but to pull your child out of a creche under the circumstances I mentioned and without any further investigation is just ludicrous.

    If your child is in one of the chain creche's mentioned on this programme then I would absolutely take them out.
    This isn't just a failure of certain staff members, it's also a failure of management, policy and control.


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    #320
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    whatawaster wrote: »
    If your child is in one of the chain creche's mentioned on this programme then I would absolutely take them out.
    This isn't just a failure of certain staff members, it's also a failure of management, policy and control.

    But I'm not referring to those creches.


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    #321
    DeanAustin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭DeanAustin


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    If you have a child in a creche where to date you've no reason to think something is not right, and if your child is coming home without any signs of abuse or neglect, then there's no reason to panic.

    I'm not saying parents shouldn't be more vigilant now, but to pull your child out of a creche under the circumstances I mentioned and without any further investigation is just ludicrous.

    In many ways you are right but I'm sure most of the kids in the programme last night didn't show signs of abuse when they got home.

    Unfortunately, this is arguably the most emotive issue there is and where you have that, cold hard logic goes out the window. This programme will do huge damage to the industry and I don't blame some parents for over-reacting because most parents will not even take a 1% risk that this could happen to their children.


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    #322
    whatawaster
    Registered Users Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Handsome Bob wrote: »
    But I'm not referring to those creches.

    that's fair enough then, I'd agree with you.


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    #323
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    username123 wrote: »
    You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you wish to believe. If you think RTE have not made money on this you are very naive.



    Then why restrict the viewing?



    Not everyone watches the news or listens to the radio. Id prefer if they simply did what they do with every other program and made it available in the normal manner instead of trying to sensationalise it further by restricting access - which is the oldest trick in the book for creating controversy and talk.

    The entire country is talking about this today, other tv programs will be discussing it, radios, newspapers, social media etc... but unless you were off work or had a recording device, you couldnt see it.

    My prediction is that they will allow a bit of time to properly whip up the frenzy then announce another airing - and happily pocket the huge advertising fees that come with that.
    intellectual dosser wrote: »
    It's strange for someone to wait outside a cinema to ask people leaving what the movie was like instead of seeing it themselves, that's why people don't do it. They'll see it themselves and make their own mind up.



    You seem to mistakenly think everyone spends their day listening to or watching RTE broadcasts. Pat Kenny is on in the mornings right? They don't have the radio blaring where I work so I missed that one (and all the others).

    Even despite their repeated warnings - what are the reasons for showing something once and then not being able to show it again? Like you said public service remit - I want my 'valya'.

    How do you people get to know about anything RTE air? Is it all just chance?
    Fairly typical of a certain set to turn good work into an RTE bashing (I'm no huge fan, but credit where credit is due) opportunity.
    They where constrained by the parents, whose permission they needed to air in the first place. Same as if you where caught by one of those candid camera programmes, you would have to give permission for the footage to be used. Your issue here is with the parents, it's fairly simple.


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    #324
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How do you people get to know about anything RTE air? Is it all just chance?

    Yeah, for me it is. I very rarely watch tv.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Fairly typical of a certain set to turn good work into an RTE bashing (I'm no huge fan, but credit where credit is due) opportunity.

    Once you personalise your point loses all relevance. Dont refer to me as "a certain set" again please. I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else here.

    RTE have restricted viewing to this unfairly.


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    #325
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    username123 wrote: »

    RTE have restricted viewing to this unfairly.

    No they haven't, they were constrained by permissions they had to obtain.


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    #326
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    RTE made an agreement with the parents of the children involved, that the programme will only be broadcast once and will not be made available on the RTE player

    and i think under the circumstances thats a sensible move


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    #327
    BrianBoru00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭BrianBoru00


    soap1978 wrote: »
    Where we not all treated worse than this in schools in 80s and years before that,i was in first class in the 80s and to be pull by the ear,hit with a cane and slapped was normal,i would of be around 6 at the time.It was never made a big deal of and never spoke about it, as it was normal way of going on.

    1. The 80's was a time when some of the most horrendous abuse of children in history was ongoing.
    2. Corporal punishment may have had certain merits IF it wasn't abused.....not always the case as per point 1.
    3. School children have an ability to verbal communicate with parents etc. - 18 -24 month old children being body slammed into a mat IS abuse.

    Astounded by the "there was no sign of abuse" line from RTE. What I saw was physical & mental abuse - no other words for it - and that s not hysteria...How in the name of Jesus is roaring at a child who hasn't a full grasp of the language not abuse...


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    #328
    robclay26
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭robclay26


    Chris,

    thanks again for your email draft, i added and did some editing myself on it and emailed it to the minister. Lets hope more on here will do the same. :)


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    #329
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    We've absolutely never, ever gotten child care right in Ireland.

    All I see is history repeating itself just under a new, corporate branded flag.

    The pattern I see there is people who seem to think that children should be shouted at, physically abused and generally terrorised into submission.

    I know I got that from a % of teachers here in the 80s and 90s.

    Big, big rethink needs to be had about how we rear kids!

    I actually remember two incidents in the 80s that terrified me age 4 ish

    A teacher threatened to superglue me to the ceiling & chased me around with a sweeping broom!
    I was also held upsidedown by the feet over one of those bins with a big black bag stretched over a metal frame. In between loads of screaming and shouting at me!

    I then had a principal recommending I see a psychologist for refusing to go to school lol


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    #330
    TheBuck
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭TheBuck


    Not live CCTV feed but recorded each day so that at any point in time it can looked back on by just the parent and Creche owners to see if anything happened.


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    #331
    evilivor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭evilivor


    username123 wrote: »
    You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you wish to believe. If you think RTE have not made money on this you are very naive.



    Then why restrict the viewing?



    Not everyone watches the news or listens to the radio. Id prefer if they simply did what they do with every other program and made it available in the normal manner instead of trying to sensationalise it further by restricting access - which is the oldest trick in the book for creating controversy and talk.

    The entire country is talking about this today, other tv programs will be discussing it, radios, newspapers, social media etc... but unless you were off work or had a recording device, you couldnt see it.

    My prediction is that they will allow a bit of time to properly whip up the frenzy then announce another airing - and happily pocket the huge advertising fees that come with that.


    It was broadcast twice last night - at 9.30pm and re-screened it at 10.30pm on the +1 channel - RTE did say it advance it would be not rebroadcast afterwards - or available on the RTE Player as per agreement with the parents of the children involved and as for the "Not everyone watches the news or listens to the radio" - how else are they meant to get the word out?


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