Dating and the Biological Clock

hedgehog2

I think the older you get the further set in your ways you become.
Not everyone needs to have kids with a world over population your probably helping the earth by not having one these days.
I think if I don`t have any by 37-38 I would`nt even consider one.Career,travel and my free time will selfishly take precedent over natures bundle of joy.I will not fancy getting up at every hour of the night in my late 30`s,marriage does not have to = kids.
It is natural to have that feeling you would like an heir to carry on the gene pool when your in your early 30`s and often parents only tell ya the good points about being a parent, secretley hoping your gonna get one yourself and then your trapped with those quiet moments you had on a Sunday stolen from you.Obviously there are big rewards fathering a child but the circumstances need to be right for both parties and it should not be considered a necessary thing because a person is getting older.

April O Neill

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I was just talking to a pal the other day about this, as we were having our weekly "We are getting so ****ing old" conversation. I am currently 27 and feel I have 5 years left to settle down with something decent as my looks will have completely faded by the time I will reach 33. I dont mean have children by the time I reach 33 but to find a decent suiter.

Getting better looking with age isn't the case with all men. I was far better looking 3-4 years ago and going downhill fast.

Refreshing to see a guy say this, but I think the "getting better with age" thing ascribed to men might be more down to a more secure financial state than in their 20s.

clairefontaine

Obviously the biggest consideration for biological health of the child is the age of the mother, or the egg, but if you Google older dads and risks of autism several credible sources will come up. One in the New York Times says that mental health issues such as autism and schizophrenia come from the sperm, not the egg. Sorry cant link because Im on the phone.

Needless to say even without the considerations of sperm and egg age, it would be pretty tough playing football with your kid just after a hip replacement or facing college fees on the cust of retirement.

clairefontaine

Obviously the biggest consideration for biological health of the child is the age of the mother, or the egg, but if you Google older dads and risks of autism several credible sources will come up. One in the New York Times says that mental health issues such as autism and schizophrenia come from the sperm, not the egg. Sorry cant link because Im on the phone.

Needless to say even without the considerations of sperm and egg age, it would be pretty tough playing football with your kid just after a hip replacement or facing college fees on the cust of retirement.

OnTheCouch

April O Neill wrote: »

Refreshing to see a guy say this, but I think the "getting better with age" thing ascribed to men might be more down to a more secure financial state than in their 20s.

This is certainly part of it, but by no means does it tell the full story . Simply speaking on a personal level here, (although I'm sure it also applies to others), I have noticed that I get much more attention nowadays from girls at 31 than I did 10 years ago. And my financial circumstances are sadly practically identical to that period at the moment, so it is not the money that is attracting them. Plus, one would have to assume that ten years later, I no longer look as youthful either, although I am aware that this is more a problem for men than women, many women like more 'mature' faces.

So what is the secret? I suppose just a combination of many things, including, but not restricted to: dressing better, more confident/at ease with yourself, not putting girls on a pedestal, not trying to show off for the sake of it, more composed/can laugh at yourself, better educated, can handle alcohol better, calmer and just more experienced in life in general.

Of course I would be foolish to think that money has no effect, clearly if it were to be known in my area that I had say won 3 million euros, I am sure I would be getting a significant amount more female attention than I am currently, but this is only one of many 'assets,' I believe. In my opinion, there are gold-diggers out there, but they only represent maybe 10-15 percent of women at most. Of course very few girls want to go out with someone who lives under a bridge either, but there is clearly a large happy medium.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Obviously the biggest consideration for biological health of the child is the age of the mother, or the egg, but if you Google older dads and risks of autism several credible sources will come up. One in the New York Times says that mental health issues such as autism and schizophrenia come from the sperm, not the egg. Sorry cant link because Im on the phone.

Needless to say even without the considerations of sperm and egg age, it would be pretty tough playing football with your kid just after a hip replacement or facing college fees on the cust of retirement.

Again this is not wrong, but I think the main gist of the argument what I and others on here were putting forward was that men generally have 10-15 years longer than women before they need to get serious if they want children. Any older than this and you are getting into the realms of the problems you highlight above, where for want of a better word, 'weak sperm' issues come into play.

For instance, I already touched on in this thread that I would not want to wait any longer than say 42-43 before starting a family. But that is still realistic for me (and indeed you could in theory extend that deadline by five or so years even - my own father had his last child at nearly 46 and that worked out fine). A woman on the other hand, would generally be looking to settle down no later than the 32-33 mark in my experience, which would give me at least ten years advantage on her.

clairefontaine

OnTheCouch wrote: »

This is certainly part of it, but by no means does it tell the full story . Simply speaking on a personal level here, (although I'm sure it also applies to others), I have noticed that I get much more attention nowadays from girls at 31 than I did 10 years ago. And my financial circumstances are sadly practically identical to that period at the moment, so it is not the money that is attracting them. Plus, one would have to assume that ten years later, I no longer look as youthful either, although I am aware that this is more a problem for men than women, many women like more 'mature' faces.

So what is the secret? I suppose just a combination of many things, including, but not restricted to: dressing better, more confident/at ease with yourself, not putting girls on a pedestal, not trying to show off for the sake of it, more composed/can laugh at yourself, better educated, can handle alcohol better, calmer and just more experienced in life in general.

Of course I would be foolish to think that money has no effect, clearly if it were to be known in my area that I had say won 3 million euros, I am sure I would be getting a significant amount more female attention than I am currently, but this is only one of many 'assets,' I believe. In my opinion, there are gold-diggers out there, but they only represent maybe 10-15 percent of women at most. Of course very few girls want to go out with someone who lives under a bridge either, but there is clearly a large happy medium.



Again this is not wrong, but I think the main gist of the argument what I and others on here were putting forward was that men generally have 10-15 years longer than women before they need to get serious if they want children. Any older than this and you are getting into the realms of the problems you highlight above, where for want of a better word, 'weak sperm' issues come into play.

For instance, I already touched on in this thread that I would not want to wait any longer than say 42-43 before starting a family. But that is still realistic for me (and indeed you could in theory extend that deadline by five or so years even - my own father had his last child at nearly 46 and that worked out fine). A woman on the other hand, would generally be looking to settle down no later than the 32-33 mark in my experience, which would give me at least ten years advantage on her.

Yes Id say you probably do have about a ten year advantage.

kat.mac

Challo wrote: »

This is a really great thread.

I'm 28, female and single. When I was younger and up until my early 20s, I always thought I wanted children and assumed that it would happen. Over the past few years though, I'm less sure on both variables.

I'm at the stage now that what I really want is a great relationship and if that leads to children, great. If it doesn't, then that's great too. At the same time, I realize this lack of definite decision-making might put guys off and is unfair.

I work in the area of child development/special needs and have nieces and nephews. So I'll have plenty of children in my life and while it's very different to having them obviously, it might be enough for me. I've also realized that the older I get, the more selfish I become. I like reading the paper in silence with great coffee on a Sunday morning. I like being able to go on spontaneous trips/weekends away. I like being able to have time on my own. I like being able to sleep after 9am on Saturday. Maybe my outlook on all that will change in a few years but certainly for now, I'm aware of how different your life is if you have children. I've also recently realized that given my area of work and seeing the level of stress on parents with children who have different medical needs, I'm too worried about having healthy children.

Then when I think about all of the above reasons, I wonder if I'm actually really trying to convince myself that I don't want children. Anyway, the fact is now that I'm finishing year 1 of a four year full-time Ph.D which means I'll be 32 when it's finished and will probably spend two years after doing a post-doc programme or working to get an academic position - which I really want. So I guess unless I meet the love of my life in the mean-time, by 34 I'm not going to be prime material for starting a relationship, thinking about children and planning.

God 28 is still so young but yeah, the biological clock is loud and clear!

You've just explained everything I've been feeling recently perfectly! I'm 27 and single. I've always been maternal and wanted kids but thinking (overthinking?!) about the timelines recently has me concerned that it might not happen. But, I see that there are massive advantages to not having kids, so while I'm certain that if kids don't happen for me, I'll be sorry about that, but I also know that life can and hopefully will be great either way.

The Corinthian

pwurple wrote: »

What do you mean by a better educational environment is provided by older parents? How so? With age comes our inevitable decline. Unwell or dead parents can't do much from beyond the grave, except perhaps provide inheritance. An excess of money with a lack of parental oversight does very little for a childs education, unless you live in a DC comic in Wayne Manor.

Unwell or dead parents? We're not talking about 60+ year old, chain-smoking parents here, so that's a bit of a straw man.

The whole thread is thinking of the children, so to speak... So I don't think it's entirely out of place to perhaps consider the effect on those same children of these decisions.

But arguing that people should have their children in their twenties on the basis of "thinking of the children" is a dubious appeal to emotion.

After all, not all fathers, for example, play football with their kids; my father never did, despite having been 28 when I was born and this hardly damaged me irreparably.

And having less energy does not imply having none.

Not to mention that our longevity has increased; having children at 40 or 50 still means that you'll most likely see them grow to adulthood at least - what most influences that is not age, but lifestyle and diet.

mariaalice

While people are staying healthier and fitter and living longer, mentally you do change as you get older and it is harder to deal with the challenges of being a parent if you have them later in life. When my youngest daughter was born my husband was 46 so he was in his sixties when she was a teenager and one day he said I am too old to be dealing with this c****, and he was not your average 60 year old he was and is very fit and active.

People cant have it both ways if you put off parenting when you are young, you are going to have to face all the challenges of parenting while perhaps finding it mentally and psychically hard going. There is a reason why you have the energy to party all night and work all day in you twenties and would find that more difficult to do in your fifties, no matter how fit you are. That energy was meant to be used to cope with looking after a baby.

As for life style the most contented, at ease with life and in the best financial position are couples who got married in their twenties and now have a grown up family, they enjoy a very good lifestyle while having the love and companionship of a long happy marriage and are young enough to enjoy their life.

pwurple

The Corinthian wrote: »

Unwell or dead parents? We're not talking about 60+ year old, chain-smoking parents here, so that's a bit of a straw man.

It was an attempt to garner what advantages older parents can impart educationally, which was your premise? You still haven't answered.

But arguing that people should have their children in their twenties on the basis of "thinking of the children" is a dubious appeal to emotion.

I didn't once mention that people should have children in their twenties? You may be mixing me up with someone else. You spoke of women freezing their eggs to attempt to delay procreation until egg reserve is depleted at menopause... which for most women is mid 50's. There's a few decades leap there.

After all, not all fathers, for example, play football with their kids; my father never did, despite having been 28 when I was born and this hardly damaged me irreparably.

And having less energy does not imply having none.

Not to mention that our longevity has increased; having children at 40 or 50 still means that you'll most likely see them grow to adulthood at least - what most influences that is not age, but lifestyle and diet.

Current life expectancy for a male in Ireland is 76.8 years. You would need to be on the lucky side of that statistic to see a child into adulthood if you are over 50 on the day of their birth.

I agree with you that it's not the end of the world. Like I said, children keep you young too. I also agree that what most influences you physically is lifestyle and diet, but as a thinking human I believe it is your relationships with others and your education which have a greater influence on who you are. The broader the range in both, the better.

As a parent the ideal is probably to be old enough to realise what makes a difference to a child, and young enough to still be able to make whatever changes are necessary. When that is depends on each individual.

The Corinthian

pwurple wrote: »

It was an attempt to garner what advantages older parents can impart educationally, which was your premise? You still haven't answered.

Greater financial stability, which in turn leads to the ability to afford greater advantages for the children, such as in education or health care. Greater maturity and life experience, which in turn leads to fewer rash decisions in the upbringing of the children.

Ultimately though, I believe there are pros and cons at all ages, but the biggest factor is the individual parents themselves. Honestly, some shouldn't be parents regardless of age, in the first place.

OnTheCouch

The Corinthian wrote: »

This means you'll get a lot of attention, but it also means that much of that attention is from women who want an eligible man, rather than a man, if you get my meaning.

I have been thinking about this thread in the last few days. I think the above encapsulates my thinking on this subject. Aside obviously from where I mentioned how I wouldn't want to mess around a woman with casual dating when she wanted to settle down, the other side of the coin is that this scenario would really freak me out. I would hate the thought of a 32 year old woman for instance looking at me and thinking 'he'll do' as opposed to the love of her life, in a situation where my sperm is prioritised over my personality. I'd much rather get together with a girl of 26 or 27 who actually went out with me for who I am and then further down the line have children through mutual love and affection, rather than matters of immediate procreation.

I may be being slightly romantic and idealistic here, but I think many shotgun marriages happen for the above reason, which can at a later stage end up in strong resentment and/or divorce.

Of course what I also agree with is what someone else said, often the person you marry is not necessarily the best relationship you've ever had, simply the person you happen to be going out with at the traditional settling down period. But yeah, the quickfire getting together certainly fills me with dread.

Call Me Jimmy

I agree with some posters who have mentioned about the technical-biological clock for men - aged appearance. I happen to be in a place where I don't ever want kids, so it's not so much to do with that but I'm getting on a bit and as someone said already, I'd say by the time I'm in my early thirties I will be effectively on the shelf if I haven't found someone. Even now its getting tough as I the first bit of aging really starts happening and it has knocked me back a lot. Hoping I can get a second wind but realistically there is about 10 years max for me to really enjoy myself before starting to think in a retiring mindset!

wallycharlo

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

...I'm getting on a bit and as someone said already, I'd say by the time I'm in my early thirties I will be effectively on the shelf if I haven't found someone...

This opinion seems to be quite popular in this thread, I'm assuming from those who are in their 20's.

I'd say a fair few who hold this opionion though may be adopting a different stance once the time comes :pac:

Call Me Jimmy

I don't know that it will change, but I'll probably end up varnishing the shelf I'm on and do some half price deals but it won't change anything really!

riveratom

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I agree with some posters who have mentioned about the technical-biological clock for men - aged appearance. I happen to be in a place where I don't ever want kids, so it's not so much to do with that but I'm getting on a bit and as someone said already, I'd say by the time I'm in my early thirties I will be effectively on the shelf if I haven't found someone. Even now its getting tough as I the first bit of aging really starts happening and it has knocked me back a lot. Hoping I can get a second wind but realistically there is about 10 years max for me to really enjoy myself before starting to think in a retiring mindset!

You're in your twenties....and you say you're 'getting on a bit'?!

You don't get to use that phrase in your twenties...nobody does...come back when you're 55 maybe!!

I don't get what that's all about. 40 isn't even old these days FFS!

The Corinthian

OnTheCouch wrote: »

I would hate the thought of a 32 year old woman for instance looking at me and thinking 'he'll do,' as opposed to 'love of my life' where my sperm is prioritised over my personality.

Occupational hazard in one's thirties, I'm afraid.

Between the ages of 28 and 35, I was in six relationships lasting 6 or more months. One ex is still single. Three married a man they met within 24 months of breaking up with me and all three have at least one child at this stage. One purposely (she has openly admitted this to me) got pregnant with some guy she met within 12 months of breaking up with me, as her priority was a child. One I've lost touch with, so her fate is unknown to me.

So maybe it was just that I attracted that type. But I'm not the only guy to hit forty, look back and notice such patterns.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I'd say by the time I'm in my early thirties I will be effectively on the shelf if I haven't found someone.

Nonsense. Age is only a factor where it comes to kids, and what that age is very debatable, especially for men.

If kids are not a factor (you don't want any or any more), then people end up in long-term and (IMHO) genuine relationships long after they've left behind their reproductive years.

I suspect there's quite a few out there who find true love in their forties, fifties and even sixties once the marriage they rushed into in their thirties finally falls apart.

iptba

OnTheCouch wrote: »

I have been thinking about this thread in the last few days. I think the above encapsulates my thinking on this subject. Aside obviously from where I mentioned how I wouldn't want to mess around a woman with casual dating when she wanted to settle down, the other side of the coin is that this scenario would really freak me out. I would hate the thought of a 32 year old woman for instance looking at me and thinking 'he'll do' as opposed to the love of her life, in a situation where my sperm is prioritised over my personality. I'd much rather get together with a girl of 26 or 27 who actually went out with me for who I am and then further down the line have children through mutual love and affection, rather than matters of immediate procreation.

I may be being slightly romantic and idealistic here, but I think many shotgun marriages happen for the above reason, which can at a later stage end up in strong resentment and/or divorce.

Of course what I also agree with is what someone else said, often the person you marry is not necessarily the best relationship you've ever had, simply the person you happen to be going out with at the traditional settling down period. But yeah, the quickfire getting together certainly fills me with dread.

I haven't been looking at self-help sections for a while: are there tips out there for men on spotting women who are just settling like this?

Call Me Jimmy

riveratom wrote: »

You're in your twenties....and you say you're 'getting on a bit'?!

You don't get to use that phrase in your twenties...nobody does...come back when you're 55 maybe!!

I don't get what that's all about. 40 isn't even old these days FFS!

Oh I'd usually be with you on this, but surely you've seen the one person who has aged terribly in their twenties. The thing about it is when you are in your 40's /50's most people have caught up with you if you aged early, but if you are aging badly in your 20's it's more noticeable because most of the people around you haven't if ye get me.

OnTheCouch

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I'd say by the time I'm in my early thirties I will be effectively on the shelf if I haven't found someone.

I have to strongly disagree with this and not just because I am of the age you mention.

Now I obviously don't know anything about you personally, but from reading between the lines of your post I'd assume you're mid-late twenties. Now, in the purely physical sense of the word, your body may well be at its peak at the moment.

Luckily, we are lucky insofar as we do not require only physical characteristics to attract a mate. One friend I know for instance was not physically intimate with a woman until he had turned 40 and then had quite a few girlfriends in a short space of time, simply because he really made the effort to turn his life around, exercised, dressed better, worked on his sense of humour etc.

So, as I say, I know nothing about your circumstances, so may be ignorant to any significant handicap you have to attract women, but it still seems like you hold out some hope of attracting women at the moment, even though you think that this won't be the case when you hit your thirties. As The Corinthian (I think) said earlier on in the thread, your personality doesn't change much at all after the mid-20s, (although I might add that it can be achieved if one makes a particular effort - but this is way easier said than done), so I can't see why you would notice any substantial difference between then and now. Yes, there is a very slight physical decline, but again any huge difference you won't be seeing for a long time yet.

So I would certainly not let your age worry you at all yet, you have got years to go still before you need to start becoming concerned with matters mentioned in this thread.

OnTheCouch

iptba wrote: »

I haven't been looking at self-help sections for a while: are there tips out there for men on spotting women who are just settling like this?

I'm sure there are, but I do not know of any that are suitably reliable and accurate to be 100 percent sure. Plus you can easily fall into the dangerous game of judging all women who do X to be Y, if you see what I mean. This is why I shy away of girls this age, because I simply cannot tell apart those who are genuine and those who are settling and are looking for anyone who will act as a sperm donor.

I know fine well that I am potentially losing out on getting to know a lot of great women because of these beliefs, but I just feel the risks are too high.

OnTheCouch

The Corinthian wrote: »

Occupational hazard in one's thirties, I'm afraid.

Between the ages of 28 and 35, I was in six relationships lasting 6 or more months. One ex is still single. Three married a man they met within 24 months of breaking up with me and all three have at least one child at this stage. One purposely (she has openly admitted this to me) got pregnant with some guy she met within 12 months of breaking up with me, as her priority was a child. One I've lost touch with, so her fate is unknown to me.

Just out of interest, I assume these six women whom you went out with were around your age at the time?

The Corinthian

iptba wrote: »

I haven't been looking at self-help sections for a while: are there tips out there for men on spotting women who are just settling like this?

It should be noted that it's not just women who can be like this, men too behave in this way, although I believe it is less common for us as we don't have the same kind of biological urgency that women suffer.

As for 'spotting' them, remember they're doing a check-list; this means that they will be looking to find out what your attitudes and plans are where it comes to children, marriage, as well as your financial situation (even if they're not looking to be financially supported, they're unlikely to want to end up married to someone they'll have to support). So if you get questions in this direction, or comments designed to invoke a reaction that she can then gauge, then take note.

Sloppiness, and willingness to take risks, with contraception is also a very important thing to watch out for. Use a condom.

But mainly, I think, it'll be the speed at which they want the relationship to develop (cohabitation, getting engaged, etc) which will give it away, as they're ultimately under pressure time-wise.

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Just out of interest, I assume these six women whom you went out with were around your age at the time?

The first and last were three and five years my junior, respectively. The rest were all one year younger, so yes; they were essentially around the same age.

boogle

My husband would love to have a child, but I'm just allergic at the moment. I'm not maternal at all, and I'm assuming by biological clock will kick in some day and I'll just want a kid. He's 32 and I'm 28, married 5 years. He never presses the issue, or even talks about it but it makes me feel bad that I'm not giving him what he wants. Am I horrible?

Sleepy

Only if you lead him along the path to the alter with the notion that you too wanted kids.

Emme

The Corinthian wrote: »

It should be noted that it's not just women who can be like this, men too behave in this way, although I believe it is less common for us as we don't have the same kind of biological urgency that women suffer.

I think this is unfair. Men can be just as desperate to have children and every bit as willing to settle as some women. Over the last year I have attracted several men whose biological clocks are ticking. I am 42 but must look younger :rolleyes: if they're approaching me. Within minutes or at most an hour of meeting they start talking about wanting children and ask me if I want children.

I did want children but if my age didn't put paid to that emergency surgery did. Some years ago I went into hospital for a small routine procedure and woke up having had a whole lot more done - my life had changed. If life had gone according to plan I would have had children in my 20s but I wanted to have them with the right person. Too many people have children for selfish reasons - because everyone else is doing it, to prove their fertility or virility or because they think it will make them complete.

I cannot understand how I attract these guys who want children, some of them are lovely and are usually between the ages of 35 and 45. Perhaps I look like I would make a good mother or maybe they are looking for just any woman to have their children. I suspect the latter.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote: »

Only if you lead him along the path to the alter with the notion that you too wanted kids.

Or did so giving him the impression that she may likely change her mind in the future, if in reality she's not or is very unlikely to.

The Corinthian

Emme wrote: »

I think this is unfair. Men can be just as desperate to have children and every bit as willing to settle as some women.

I specifically said this. Men can be, I just don't believe that it's quite as frequent as with women, only because we don't have the same 'hard' deadline.

Too many people have children for selfish reasons - because everyone else is doing it, to prove their fertility or virility or because they think it will make them complete.

Completely agree.

I cannot understand how I attract these guys who want children, some of them are lovely and are usually between the ages of 35 and 45. Perhaps I look like I would make a good mother or maybe they are looking for just any woman to have their children. I suspect the latter.

Tell them your age. If they vanish shortly thereafter, then it is the latter; otherwise there's some other reason.

Emme

The Corinthian wrote: »

Tell them your age. If they vanish shortly thereafter, then it is the latter; otherwise there's some other reason.

I usually extricate myself politely without giving any further information. There is no need to tell a man my age if I know it isn't going to go anywhere with him.

boogle

The Corinthian wrote: »

Or did so giving him the impression that she may likely change her mind in the future, if in reality she's not or is very unlikely to.

No, I've been totally honest with him about my feelings on the matter. He supports my decision. BTW I haven't told him that I never want kids. I do thing that eventually it will change for me.