Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724801#Comment_121724801

Its even more basket case than you think. Some airlines will redeploy aircraft to routes totally outside Ireland (notably Ryanair).

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724801#Comment_121724801

Other airports like Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Birmingham etc. Not Shannon nor Cork

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724732#Comment_121724732

Thats not what people here are saying.

They're saying that when Green Party TDs lose their seats we'll have far fewer (or none) high profile national level objections. Which will be a huge improvement.

There are no FF or FG government TDs currently giving interviews to the media talking about the need to limit flights out of DUB, because they have at least an ounce of common sense and know its a ridiculous, damaging to the country, idea. But there are multiple Green party TDs doing so, and also apparently causing problems for DUB at cabinet level.

County councillors are an entirely different, separate, issue.

WishUWereHere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724801#Comment_121724801

Seriously? What gives You that impression?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121725420#Comment_121725420

Common sense.

sandbelter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121712213#Comment_121712213

i disagree, I don't think it's good for Dublin Airport or Ireland that planners should be allowed should be allowed to make these decisions unilaterally.

I have had very frequent interactions with planners and as an Economist and I have found planner to have have very cellular view of the issue at had. The have no understanding of business and economic dynamics, I'd go as far to to say their lack of understanding can undermine the very project they are reviewing.

There are three issues I have found they don't understand:

1) Externalities (positive ripple effects unrelated businesses)

2) Macroeconomic spill overs (on tax receipts, and economic growth trajectories). Look at the role SIN and DXB airports have played underpinning the development of their economies.

3) The broader long term equity and welfare effects (the government has to deal with this, planners don't)

The biggest risk any airport faces is bypass risk, as business like to cluster and economic growth follows.

This why overseas, there sits a planning layer above town planners. Projects get "called in" but these are project that economic are strategic significance.

It's not failsafe to corruption, but sometimes it better to be "roughly right and not exactly wrong". And that's what's at stake with the passenger cap.

Given that we are seeing EDI and MAN pitching for trade, I'm surprised Ireland's responsibilities under the single market, these restrictions were all well and good before Brexit, but the UK immigration policies combined with the cap impacts the flow of EU workers into Ireland looking for work, and also Irish going on holidays which is essentially an export for the Mediterranean countries. The Single Market Act addresses "practical impediments"

Blut2

Surely our Green TDs and MEP could be made to make their way to and from Brussels on ground based transportation. That would be a good way to do their part in keeping passenger numbers down at DUB. Lead by example and all that.

Brian CivilEng

Cuffe does travel regularly by ferry and train to Brussels in fairness. Still previously he had acknowledged the importance of air travel. Disappointed with his current stance.

dublin12367

There will be a segment on prime time tonight, 9:30 about the cap, the effect on Shannon etc.

L1011

If alrlines wanted to fly to SNN or ORK, they'd do so already.

The state, via the tourism bodies, could do a hell of a lot more to try point US inbound tourists at SNN - considering so many of them get a hire car and immediately head to the Cliffs of Moher, Aran Islands, Ring of Kerry etc and may even entirely avoid Dublin. But they could/should have been doing that forever, its not a new idea.

Economics101

Political sentiments deleted.

Lets keep this focused on the airport and infrastructure planning rather than diatribes upon the political system in Ireland.

tom1ie

Just jumping in here to ask a question that recently occurred to me.

Why can’t we expand shannon airport and improve the links to it, which would:

take pressure off Dublin airport

encourage development in the limerick area to somewhat counterbalance Dublins massive growth.

By improving links in talking about connecting Shannon to rail and streamlining the journey time.

Anyone any idea how long it takes to get from Dublin to Ennis railway station?

Surely a tee off the limerick Ennis line at castlefergus to Shannon airport wouldn’t be too big a deal?

Hotblack Desiato

Expand it in what way?

It's already a far bigger airport than the traffic to it justifies.

trellheim

The point above presumably that increasing flights from Shannon ( and presumably Belfast City, it's better connected ) would decrease the pressure on Dublin

BHD of all the airports on the island has a rail line right beside it, and its on the right side, from if you extended the enterprise train out to Sydenham or started it from Bangor , you'd have Ireland's only direct airport rail connection to Dublin city centre chuckle

dublin12367

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757378#Comment_121757378

Few things on that.

1) there’s no pressure on Dublin as some might think. Current infrastructure may be near its limit but there’s quite a lot of room to expand here, firstly on the north and south aprons and secondly on the western side of the airport, between the two runways. Some people think there’s no room to expand at Dublin and that’s just not the case.

2) Shannon or any other regional airport such as Knock and Cork etc are not at capacity and can add more flights if there was demand to do so.

3) it’s not a situation where its expand Dublin and forget about the others. It’s simply, Dublins infrastructure needs to expand as it’s near capacity, the others aren’t at capacity and they have no application in to expand currently. When they get to their capacity limits they can expand.

4) We haven’t even got a rail link to the national airport accounting for 33.5 million passengers, so why would we build one to an airport handling less than 2m a year?

5) Ryanair recently stated they wished to add 2 million passenger to Dublin this year, 4 extra aircraft. They couldn’t because of the cap. So far, they haven’t added this amount (combined) to Shannon, cork or knock, proving that keeping the cap in Dublin, will not benefit Shannon, Knock or Cork. And that’s just one airline.

6) I’ve seen a few arguments stating Dublin should transfer some routes to Shannon like it’s just that easy. Would these same people ask Tesco to tell their customers to shop in Aldi if Tesco was busy? Airlines are businesses, not charities.

7) if the issue is about noise complaints / environment in Dublin to stop it expanding, if we’re going to send more flights to the regional airports instead, won’t noise become a problem also? And it won’t be any greener.

goingnowhere

Interesting conflict here

If this is all about being 'green' then all flights are bad so the use of ORK/SNN etc shouldn't come into it...

trellheim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757612#Comment_121757612

Your tesco aldi analogy doesnt hold up. instead its asking people to shop not in the local Aldi, but instead in the Aldi down the road as its less crowded . Long term capacity planning in Dept of Transport for Air should be miles ahead on this stuff as its not particularly a surprise, Covids been over for a while

HTCOne

You're asking people to shop in the supermarket 3 hours away. Not great for the environment that. Its also worse for the economy as it destroys the hub model. Routes that would otherwise not be commercially viable on a point to point can be sustained at hubs (think CLE & BDL for example) which drive growth themselves, improve the viability of other routes in turn, provide business and tourist opportunities for the wider economy. Dividing traffic at DUB up amongst other airports would have a net negative impact on the economy and jobs nationally.

Economics101

Thiese references to Shannon calls to mind that to-day's Irish Times has one of the craziest anti-DAA letters ever (and that's saying something) from a Limerick farmer.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2024/02/12/farmers-angry-as-daa-gets-off-the-hook/

The standard of debate on this issue is truly pathetic.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121731246#Comment_121731246

He also has/had shares in the major Gas&petroleum companies.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757889#Comment_121757889

You have a very Dublin centric view seeing as you seem to think that all travellers from Dublin airport are from Dublin and that they are all 3hrs from Shannon cork and knock.

there are plenty of people travelling from areas which are closer to cork, knock and Shannon airports. They do so because of price or simply because their destination is not served from the regional airports. It’s a win win for everyone to get these people using these airports. Dublin traffic is full, Dublin airport car parks are full, construction work in Dublin is very expensive etc etc. All the while we have under utilised assets in these regional airports and maybe more should be done to encourage the routes to be set up.

it’s very lazy to just say if the demand was there then the airlines will come and let the capitalist airlines naturally sort it out. Governments across the world intervene on all sorts of things to encourage decentralisation, IDA is a great example.

i know this won’t be a popular post because for some reason aviation fans want the biggest and it’s a bit of a willy waving contest to have Dublin airport as big as possible.

And I’ve been attacked before for saying this but it’s weird how some posters have such a desire for aer Lingus to be successful in their hub model. It’s all about the transit hub for so many people. Hub airports provide limited benefit to local economies, how many of us have transited philidelphia / Atlanta / Dubai etc and never set foot in these cities. Yes the hub model provide jobs but it’s not as lucrative as some posters on here believe.

EI is no longer a national asset and the powers that be in London will drop routes at the drop of a hat if their excel model says so. All it takes is a recession in the US and we will be left with all our eggs in a very expensive basket, the beloved hub airport dream that some posters wish for.

HTCOne

I'm from Limerick, I work in SNN in the aviation industry. My view is definitely not Dublin biased, it is Irish biased. I want what is best for the country, economy and environment. The Government intervening to artificially restrict markets is catastrophic for our industry. The Shannon stop over was a boon to Manchester, not Ireland. This cap in Dublin is already driving traffic to Edinburgh and Manchester at Ireland's expense. That is money that could have gone in the pockets of Irish taxi drivers, restaurants, hotels and industry.

You say it's lazy to point out the market would be served if it existed, but it is a fact. SNN can't attract routes because:

A) it is a relatively small market and highly seasonal for inbound pax.

B) Airlines know FR will just capacity dump on them if they do show up.

The vast majority of people on this Island live within a couple of hours of Dublin. The runways and taxiways are already in place. It is by far the most cost effective and environmentally friendly airport to expand. The movement rate in SNN is restricted by the backtracking on 24, the runways in Cork are in the wrong orientation and the airfield is in the wrong place for expansion. Knock and Kerry are population limited.

I know it's tempting to want all the big planes in your local airport as a willy waving contest, but economically it is a disaster for the country.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758174#Comment_121758174

Who are the powers that be in London? The British government?

HTCOne

IAG are based in Madrid so it can't be them.

NITRO95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758617#Comment_121758617

Even when it was the Spaniards I knew it was the Brits! It's always the Brits!*

*joke by the way

trellheim

There are 792+ flights to the UK a week from Dublin, 300+ to London , 74 to the Canaries, (227 a week for all of spain incl Canaries) , well over 100 a week to France and Germany. 145 to USA

all stats from DAA own info https://online.flippingbook.com/view/409916267/22/

Canaries and the rest of Europe all accessible from Cork and Knock as it stands right now, Add Shannon and you get preclearance to USA

Are we really saying that 10% or more could never be moved off to other airports , anyone saying 10% of those passengers aint from Cork for example ?

HTCOne

Let's say ITA want to launch FCO-DUB next month but are told "no, the 32 million cap is in effect, but we can take you in SNN/ORK etc". Which is more likely, they do that, or they go to the likes of MAN/BHX/EDI/GLA/LGW/STN or other far larger markets on the continent? Government can stop airlines using DUB, but they can't force them to the regionals. The whole economy and country loses if they try, as has been seen in the past with SNN.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758617#Comment_121758617

IAG is registered in Madrid but the leadership team is based in its head office in London and that’s where decisions are made.

https://www.iairgroup.com/contact-us/

dublin12367

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758580#Comment_121758580

Brilliant post. Nailed it.