Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

Locker10a

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Had the displeasure of using the private bus area at Zone 16 for the first time in a while yesterday, what a mess that whole setup is. For one thing there's nowhere near enough shelter or seating but the lack of info for passengers is ridiculous.

Countless tourists wondering about confused, not sure if they're in the right area and wondering if they've missed their bus, loads of buses of all shapes and colours that seem to just park in a random bay, half of them have no more than an A4 piece of paper in the window to signify what route they're for. The only timetable info is a little noticeboard with a few water damaged posters tacked to it. My bus was 15 minutes late, I've used it plenty of times but with it being a bank holiday I was getting apprehensive that it wasn't running, the only way to find out was to google their phone number and calling the office to confirm.

Rambling on a bit but its a pathetic setup in this day and age

Agreed

jesus_thats_gre

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've been caught more times in Dublin with "there is no gate available lets sit on the taxiway" far more than other airports too.

Also Dublin are so much less efficient than say, Gatwick, at using their runway.

Far more frequent in Heathrow than Dublin for me - based on 5/6 years of return flights every other week. BA in LHR particularly guilty of it on Long Haul arrivals.

salmocab

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Current Luas Zone 4-5 single fares are around 5.50, I would expect based on today's fares DUB-City will be around 6.50 single and 9 return (cannot see it passing 10 euro). The equivalent to Swords would be 3-4 euro return. daa might get an annual fee but I think the NTA will have massive influence here. It's fairly reasonable given the current prices of Airlink etc.

The volume alone circa 40k per day from one stop alone is massive.

Anyway there are way to many's If's about this project to think to far ahead.

I’m pretty sure by the time it’s built Dublin will have just one fare and the 90 minute limit in. That 5.50 will be less than 3 euro I’d think by then if using a card.
Your right though it’s too far away for serious debate, it was the talk of the bus surcharge that had me thinking.

Blut2

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Airlines rejected peak/off peak charges.

I'm sure DAA could implement it as a policy regardless of the airlines' opinions on it, no? I seem to recall Ryanair decrying Terminal2 as a pointless white elephant and strenuously rejecting the need for it. Luckily their opinion got ignored on that.

I'm not sure how else the DAA are going to be able to spread the load across the day more efficiently, otherwise.

basill

They can and the passengers will go somewhere that is cheaper as the costs will be passed on by the airlines. All airports have peaks and troughs, its the nature of the business. Just like summer versus winter. Take a typical day in Dublin with early morning Atlantic arrivals creating a mini rush hour before dawn. Then a gap of a few hours and those connecting passengers head for Paris, Rome, London, Amsterdam - pretty much most of the major European cities. They don't want to hang around all day waiting for an "off peak" flight but instead want to keep moving. Those flights then return from Europe between 1100-1400 (ish) and there is another rush hour. 30-40min turn arounds and pressure on airlines to sweat the assets means that the aircraft are off again and so the cycle continues.

IngazZagni

Blut2 wrote: »

I'm sure DAA could implement it as a policy regardless of the airlines' opinions on it, no? I seem to recall Ryanair decrying Terminal2 as a pointless white elephant and strenuously rejecting the need for it. Luckily their opinion got ignored on that.

I'm not sure how else the DAA are going to be able to spread the load across the day more efficiently, otherwise.

I think their gripe was more to do with the cost of the project and that they’d have to pay more for something they won’t use rather than the extra capacity not being needed. They also criticised the lack of gates vs shopping space.

I disagree with you that capacity issues are limited to just the morning and evening rush. The period between midday and 5pm can be extremely busy just like today with at least 30 minute taxi times and holding. Aer Lingus and Ryanair will team up against any attempt to introduce peak charges.

I’ve also being seeing complaints over the past 2 days with people waiting an hour for taxis at 1am. It’s an absolute farce and highlights the failure of public transport to deliver to a airport that needs 24 hour services. The airports policy of only having specially licensed taxis serve the airport needs to be reviewed as it is failing customers.

cson

cson wrote: »

I know the new runway is on the way but what's the capacity of T1 & T2 in terms of passengers? That's a bigger issue imo as the lead in to a new terminal would be minimum a decade.

There’s plenty of capacity within the terminals. Something like 10-15 million spare. Dublin has peaks and troughs. The slots for the busy hours are gone and now the troughs are being filled so that spare capacity gets eaten in to.

One of the issues at Dublin is proximity. The terminals are too close to the taxiways (note not apron), and the taxiways are too close to the runway holding area in some cases they are holding/taxiways/apron. This leads to congestion.

Ideally you want to be able to push to an apron then taxi to a taxiway before entering a holding area for a runway. Not push on to a holding area like bravo 1 or Link 2 area.

Terminal 2 should possibly have been built west of 16/34 and allowed T1 to organically grow via piers where T2 is leaving room for aprons/taxiways and holding areas.

cson

10-15 million is not a lot of room - even if you go back 5 years the airport has grown from 21m to 31m in that period. I understand that aircraft movements will be a limiting factor and its hard to see gaps in the route network at the moment but at the same time now is the time to invest in infrastructure.

Blut2

IngazZagni wrote: »

I think their gripe was more to do with the cost of the project and that they’d have to pay more for something they won’t use rather than the extra capacity not being needed. They also criticised the lack of gates vs shopping space.

I disagree with you that capacity issues are limited to just the morning and evening rush. The period between midday and 5pm can be extremely busy just like today with at least 30 minute taxi times and holding. Aer Lingus and Ryanair will team up against any attempt to introduce peak charges.

I’ve also being seeing complaints over the past 2 days with people waiting an hour for taxis at 1am. It’s an absolute farce and highlights the failure of public transport to deliver to a airport that needs 24 hour services. The airports policy of only having specially licensed taxis serve the airport needs to be reviewed as it is failing customers.

Ryanair's big complaint was that if airport taxes went up to fund the construction of T2 then they'd be "forced" to drastically reduce traffic to DUB. Which obviously never happened. Pretty much identical to their claims that they'd do similar if off/peak rate taxes were introduced now - which is why I'd take their thoughts on the issue with a huge grain of salt.

There can be issues on any random day at any time. But the morning rush is very consistently awful, as opposed to less frequent congestion issues at other times.

The taxi queues late night are a huge issue currently though, yeah. They need to get cars up from the kesh faster, get Dublin Bus to run some late night buses, and/or encourage more aircoaches. Some combination of that.

cson

The 41 is going to be 24hrs on DB to be fair.

MJohnston

Blut2 wrote: »

The taxi queues late night are a huge issue currently though, yeah. They need to get cars up from the kesh faster, get Dublin Bus to run some late night buses, and/or encourage more aircoaches. Some combination of that.

They need to legitimise taxi apps too, and provide clear signage to where you can go to meet them.

cson

cson wrote: »

10-15 million is not a lot of room - even if you go back 5 years the airport has grown from 21m to 31m in that period. I understand that aircraft movements will be a limiting factor and its hard to see gaps in the route network at the moment but at the same time now is the time to invest in infrastructure.

Many airports operate well beyond their designed capacity. So don't be surprised if they sweat another asset. Bare in mind that sections of the terminals will meet their designed capacity over the next few years and these are being addressed in the CAR submissions.

Shamrockj

I wish they would build a clean sheet terminal 3 west between what will be runway 10L/10R with access from either side and dual taxi ways like T5 in Heathrow that's a lot more efficient. Even Emirates have said previously they shelved plans for 3rd daily flight due to the infrastructure. If they really want Dublin to be a hub they need more than the south gates.

IngazZagni

Blut2 wrote: »

Ryanair's big complaint was that if airport taxes went up to fund the construction of T2 then they'd be "forced" to drastically reduce traffic to DUB. Which obviously never happened. Pretty much identical to their claims that they'd do similar if off/peak rate taxes were introduced now - which is why I'd take their thoughts on the issue with a huge grain of salt.

That's not entirely true though. Ryanairs traffic in Dublin declined from 6.78 million in 2008 to 4.6 million in 2012. However this was more to do with the aviation tax that applied then vs airport costs. Ryanair do have a track record of sticking to their guns and reducing traffic at airports they feel they're being ripped off at. However at bigger airports and Dublin now fits into that category they can't bully the airports as much as they could with the smaller ones.

Blut2

IngazZagni wrote: »

That's not entirely true though. Ryanairs traffic in Dublin declined from 6.78 million in 2008 to 4.6 million in 2012. However this was more to do with the aviation tax that applied then vs airport costs. Ryanair do have a track record of sticking to their guns and reducing traffic at airports they feel they're being ripped off at. However at bigger airports and Dublin now fits into that category they can't bully the airports as much as they could with the smaller ones.

The gigantic recession starting in 2008 in Ireland had more to do with Ryanair's traffic declining ex-DUB in that time period than aviation tax. DUB airport's traffic in general declined by almost 25% in that time period due to the economic crisis - people just simply weren't flying, because they'd lost their jobs.

Ryanair would and have absolutely stuck to their guns in a regional airport like Oslo-Rygge, where they're a dominant actor, and can throw their weight around. That doesn't apply in DUB, with over 30mn passengers and a very large low lost rival, in Aer Lingus, being present.

O'Leary will sulk and complain in the media, but any small increases in airport tax will either come out of Ryanair's profit margin or be passed along to the consumer - they absolutely won't lead to mass cancellations of routes. Its an empty threat.

IngazZagni

Blut2 wrote: »

The gigantic recession starting in 2008 in Ireland had more to do with Ryanair's traffic declining ex-DUB in that time period than aviation tax. DUB airport's traffic in general declined by almost 25% in that time period due to the economic crisis - people just simply weren't flying, because they'd lost their jobs.

Again I disagree. All of Europe had a recession during that period and yet Ryanair's yearly traffic grew from 51 million in 2008 to 76 million in 2012.

Blut2

IngazZagni wrote: »

Again I disagree. All of Europe had a recession during that period and yet Ryanair's yearly traffic grew from 51 million in 2008 to 76 million in 2012.

Ireland had 54 recessionary months in that time period. France had 21. Germany had 12. Poland had 0.

"All of Europe" was not remotely effected to the same level. Air traffic was still growing rapidly in parts of the continent less badly hit.

If you actually think Ryanair's traffic at DUB declining between 2008 and 2012 was down to a corporate choice, and not the worst economic crisis in decades in Ireland, I fear you may have drunk a little too much of the Ryanair koolaid.

trellheim

Sorry .. Agree 100% of Bluts comments here. If anyone thinks ryanair would cut services and let Easy or anyone else into Fortress Dublin yer mad

If I was the CAR I'd be looking for value from the money spent on the fees e.g 10 quid a skull on passenger screening .. ask why so many idle belts in T1

Jamie2k9

trellheim wrote: »

Sorry .. Agree 100% of Bluts comments here. If anyone thinks ryanair would cut services and let Easy or anyone else into Fortress Dublin yer mad

If I was the CAR I'd be looking for value from the money spent on the fees e.g 10 quid a skull on passenger screening .. ask why so many idle belts in T1

There is a big difference between headline rates and actual rates paid by carries.

trellheim

https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/summary-table-of-dublin-airport-charges-2019c68b488b73386836b47fff0000600727.pdf?sfvrsn=0

THe latest charges summary (linked above) makes no mention of a difference between actuals and otherwise

In any event , the point remains - value for money should be demanded ; the more passengers come through screening, the charges reflect that, and so all belts should be active as they are directly funded. Increasing hall size wont make any difference here so vanity DAA projects are useless.

Kermit.de.frog

I'm getting worried if major expansion of the terminals does not start immediately the airport will be caught with it trousers around it's ankles and the place will grind to a halt.

The regulator is hopeless with it's passenger number forecasts.

There is literally no significant expansion of the terminals under construction as we type!

This won't end well.

trellheim

Right now if it was me before 2nd runway


remote stands for Longhaul, there are many airports where its done and no particular reason why not
fund T1 departure screening staffing to the full extent so all belts are running
Bus some T1 arrivals to 300 immigration and staff them fully
Get the tower to use 34 rwy as well as 28 for departures between 0600-0800 to the full extent possible , wind and weather permitting

The airlines could also do with either spreading out the TATL departures to give the preclearance circus less of a pain or just not preclearing certain flights or paying for extra preclearance staffing because it is far more stressing than T1 inbound passport queue because you have a strong possibility of missing flights

JCX BXC

trellheim wrote: »

Get the tower to use 34 rwy as well as 28 for departures between 0600-0800 to the full extent possible , wind and weather permitting

Wouldn't that just increase unreliability in the schedule?

HTCOne

JCX BXC wrote: »

Wouldn't that just increase unreliability in the schedule?

It would. Dual runway ops only make sense when the traffic is heavily biased towards departures because of bottlenecks all along the route to T2 especially when there's large queues for departures and 16/34 isn't available for taxiing. Too many arrivals waiting to get near their gates would cause absolute gridlock.

cgcsb

Does anyone remember 2007 before T2 opened? It was like an absolute zoo. People everywhere, sitting on the floor eating dinners and all. You would think it was New Dheli, only then did ground break on T2. I suspect we'll be expected to endure same before a 3rd terminal starts. The latest news seems to indicate a level of growth far exceeding the celtic tiger years, so that may be sooner rather than later

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0606/1053812-cso-aviation-statistics/

Also Dublin is set to become the EU's 9th biggest airport, and the largest airport without any rail access.

dfx-

There's not only the infrastructure element but staff and organisation also.

I've had short haul AL flights fully boarded and on time but waiting for the hold luggage to arrive at the aircraft and planes left on the apron waiting for an airbridge operator...

Shamrockj

trellheim wrote: »

Right now if it was me before 2nd runway


remote stands for Longhaul, there are many airports where its done and no particular reason why not
fund T1 departure screening staffing to the full extent so all belts are running
Bus some T1 arrivals to 300 immigration and staff them fully
Get the tower to use 34 rwy as well as 28 for departures between 0600-0800 to the full extent possible , wind and weather permitting

The airlines could also do with either spreading out the TATL departures to give the preclearance circus less of a pain or just not preclearing certain flights or paying for extra preclearance staffing because it is far more stressing than T1 inbound passport queue because you have a strong possibility of missing flights

I don't think that would work. For the us flights you couldn't bus people because of the pre clearance the aircraft and all routes to it are sterile from other areas.

dfx-

dfx- wrote: »

There's not only the infrastructure element but staff and organisation also.

I've had short haul AL flights fully boarded and on time but waiting for the hold luggage to arrive at the aircraft and planes left on the apron waiting for an airbridge operator...

That's EI management trying to run their operation on a shoestring for max profit. Several times management have had to man the pumps to keep the operation going because they've maxed out their staffing.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

Does anyone remember 2007 before T2 opened? It was like an absolute zoo. People everywhere, sitting on the floor eating dinners and all. You would think it was New Dheli, only then did ground break on T2. I suspect we'll be expected to endure same before a 3rd terminal starts. The latest news seems to indicate a level of growth far exceeding the celtic tiger years, so that may be sooner rather than later

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0606/1053812-cso-aviation-statistics/

I remember being in T1 around that time, maybe a year or two earlier before the T1 check-in extension opened, and it was bedlam. You couldn't tell the check-in queues apart. At the time I remember thinking what would happen if an evacuation of the terminal were needed...

Also Dublin is set to become the EU's 9th biggest airport, and the largest airport without any rail access.

Arrived at 2am Wed morning there this week, only to wait in a queue for taxis for over 30 minutes. Surreal and bizarre to think that taxis are the only way out of the place at that time, if you haven't parked your own car. The lads managing the queue did a good job, but the Metro can't come soon enough.

trellheim

HTCOne wrote: »

It would. Dual runway ops only make sense when the traffic is heavily biased towards departures because of bottlenecks all along the route to T2 especially when there's large queues for departures and 16/34 isn't available for taxiing. Too many arrivals waiting to get near their gates would cause absolute gridlock.

But at that time 0600-0800 it *is* heavily oriented towards departure - FR and EI first wave. In addition if those departures cant get away there will be no gate usually