Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

devnull · 12-05-2013 09:42PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Wouldnt the wage of the top brass inflate the average wage on paper ? It doesnt mean that every BE employee is on that wage.

Yes it would but it's still average so whilst there are 500 people who are part their total salary would be quite low in comparison to full time workers, this would pull the average down quite a bit because there are so many of them.

However a few at the top would pull it a little in the other direction as well, but realistically there cannot be many who are earning the 70-80k plus mark, certainly nowhere near 500. So it would have less impact on the average. I'd say however many there are though is too many and that I will agree with staff on.

devnull · 12-05-2013 09:47PM

tayto lover wrote: »

That silly old argument has been done to death. They already have jobs so do not need to join the 400k unemployed.
What they are trying to do is protect their terms and conditions and that is their right.

But if the company goes bust as it is paying wages it cannot afford then they will be on the dole.

gbob wrote: »

The basic wage for a BE driver on the top scale is around 33k gross. There are many that dont do overtime or get shift allowances or work sundays and would earn very little over the basic. That is a fact, those people can not afford cuts. Sime as that. One man has told me if the cuts go through he will loose 10k pa and will be better off on the dole. And you'll get your wish.

And I don't have any problem with people earning 33k gross and I don't think that is overpaid All I am saying is there are some people who must be earning much more than that with all the perks and and that is the problem at the end of the day. You say that these people can't afford cuts but they won't be getting barely any cuts since basic pay is untouched so defeat your own argument there.

Somebody may be losing 10k but what are they on before and after is the question I would ask? And as I've said before also, if someone is working overtime every week all year long that is the sign of bad management and terrible use of resources and shouldn't be allowed to happen, that is not what overtime is for.

nomoreindie · 12-05-2013 09:49PM

gbob wrote: »

Nobody is claiming they are underpaid, they are saying the same as everyone else that they can't afford another pay cut while executives and management are not subject to the same cuts as they are.

The basic wage for a BE driver on the top scale is around 33k gross. There are many that dont do overtime or get shift allowances or work sundays and would earn very little over the basic. That is a fact, those people can not afford cuts. Sime as that. One man has told me if the cuts go through he will loose 10k pa and will be better off on the dole. And you'll get your wish.

so someone is going to lose €10,000 per year,I find that hard to believe

Laviski · 12-05-2013 09:51PM

you can be damm sure if this was a private company we wouldn't be having this discussion. services would just be cut and people let go.

SandyfordGuy · 12-05-2013 09:53PM

considering most of the payments are only being cut from like 1.5 pay to 1.25x pay and 2.0x pay to 1.5x pay then if someone is losing 10,000 they must be coming from a pretty high starting point else the sums do not add up.

tayto lover · 12-05-2013 10:00PM

devnull wrote: »

But if the company goes bust as it is paying wages it cannot afford then they will be on the dole.

BE was never intended to make a profit and has always been subsidised.

This is just a continuation of what the Govt are trying to do to the nurses, garda, firemen etc and anyone who works shifts inc Sat and Sun in the Public Sector.
If they get away with this and the trend continues it will spread to the Private Sector as more profits have to be made for the big guys.

If they cut wages here then the workers would be as well off on the dole but then the Govt tax take would drop and output of dole would increase.

tayto lover · 12-05-2013 10:02PM

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

considering most of the payments are only being cut from like 1.5 pay to 1.25x pay and 2.0x pay to 1.5x pay then if someone is losing 10,000 they must be coming from a pretty high starting point else the sums do not add up.

3k was the figure given of what they would lose on the papers yesterday.

the_syco · 12-05-2013 10:06PM

Laviski wrote: »

you can be damm sure if this was a private company we wouldn't be having this discussion. services would just be cut and people let go.

You can be damned sure if it were a private company any routes with low traffic would be amalgamated and any times that had low traffic would be cut off. If that meant cutting the 7 day route down to Fridays and Sundays, I could see it happening.

But it's not a private company, and BE must waste fuel and man-hours sending buses to places that may not gain that much.

devnull · 12-05-2013 10:06PM

I was just quoting the given example, if someone is losing 10k then they have to be coming down from quite high up as those cuts are only impacting non basic wages, and even the extras would only be cut by 20-30%

devnull · 12-05-2013 10:07PM

the_syco wrote: »

But it's not a private company, and BE must waste fuel and man-hours sending buses to places that may not gain that much.

But that is why they are paid PSO subsidy and have state paid for vehicles on such routes.

TiGeR KiNgS · 12-05-2013 10:17PM

IS THIS STRIKE SET FOR MONDAY I.E TOMORROW ?

need answer asap please

gbob · 12-05-2013 10:29PM

devnull wrote: »

I was just quoting the given example, if someone is losing 10k then they have to be coming down from quite high up as those cuts are only impacting non basic wages, and even the extras would only be cut by 20-30%

That particular driver is on the lowest scale and he would rely on overtime, shift and sunday premium, exactly what is being cut. If they go his basic is considerably less than the 33k quoted.

gbob · 12-05-2013 10:31PM

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

IS THIS STRIKE SET FOR MONDAY I.E TOMORROW ?

need answer asap please

Sorry but its set to continue indefinitely.

devnull · 12-05-2013 10:51PM

gbob wrote: »

That particular driver is on the lowest scale and he would rely on overtime, shift and sunday premium, exactly what is being cut. If they go his basic is considerably less than the 33k quoted.

But he must be earning a good bit more than 10k in those premiums, overtime and extras since they are not being got rid of they are being cut.

If they are being cut by 50%, that means he was earning another 10k from them on top of his basic pay, Even at 33% cut to all allowances across the board, he'd be getting 30k on top of his basic before cut and 20k after it.

ressem · 12-05-2013 10:56PM

The last annual report (2011) says that the cost of providing the PSO services exceeded their audited value by 3.5 million.

That makes it a subsidy that the government have to justify to others.

They have gone from 2296 to 2103 full time staff, and there's 7 million less being paid to external contractors.

The problem isn't so much fuel cost, more the drop in passenger numbers.
Costs to paying customers have jumped a lot over the last 5 years, and the city services are major lossmakers.
The unions are just hoping that this deficit can just be put on the passengers and school ticket price. (The NBRU comments about using the reserves are a smokescreen for this.)

Annual Report 2011, page 38 wrote:

Costs for Expressway, Stage Carriage and City Services are allocated on the basis of metrics derived from prior period data, independent studies of Bus Éireann operations, numbers of buses and mileage.

The cost of PSO operations amounted to €39.88m in 2011 while the compensation received amounted to €43.40m.

gbob · 12-05-2013 11:04PM

devnull wrote: »

But he must be earning a good bit more than 10k in those premiums, overtime and extras since they are not being got rid of they are being cut.

If they are being cut by 50%, that means he was earning another 10k from them on top of his basic pay, Even at 33% cut to all allowances across the board, he'd be getting 30k on top of his basic before cut and 20k after it.

I agree completely with your maths but the full details of these proposed cuts are not in the public domain. There are a certain group of drivers who will loose almost all premium payments. Those are the lowest paid at present and will loose the most with these cuts.

I realise that's a bit vague but I'm not sure how much detail I can go into.

devnull · 12-05-2013 11:09PM

But the Labour Court judgement has been published and is on their website, it lists what Bus Eireann recommended, the disputed points by the unions, and what was recommended by the court.

See here:http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/185190278967d05380256a01005bb35e/80256a770034a2ab80257b0900428efa?OpenDocument

The problem with people with low basic but high premiums and allowances and people with higher basic but lower premiums is always going to be tough to deal with, since whatever you cut, some group of people is always going to be worse off than others, particularly when there are several grades of basic pay as you outline.

For example, if you cut someone on the higher end basic pay to allow others people with lower basic pay to keep their premium, the former are going to be unhappy that their basic pay is being cut when the basic pay of others is being left alone, just as now you have people who rely on allowances on lower pay unhappy that they stand more to lose than those who are on higher pay and rely little on allowances.

If you can say, out of my curiosity, how much is the difference between the lowest and highest basic pay rates in Bus Eireann and what governs who gets what rate? it is defined on location, years of service or what?

Victor · 12-05-2013 11:21PM

cdebru wrote: »

Actually total revenue was 56.6 billion and total expenditure was 68.8 billion in 2012 of which almost 6 billion was in interest payments ( look up rewarding failure). But it was a gap 12.2 billion not 20 billion so I just saved us 7.8 billion given your cribbing about 5 million you would think you wouldn't let 7.8 billion slip past you but you did.

On topic please. Read the first post.

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

zzzzzzzz more politics.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

Moderator

Laviski wrote: »

bus drivers making more than 40k a year? get real and be thankful first for having a job and second for getting that much money to drive a bus. People in the haulage business would only dream to get that much a year and they have worse conditions than yourselves.

Get Real and get back to work.
their basic is just over 30k and if they do shift work, sunday, public holidays that can push the majority up to 45k a year.

Are you contradicting your self?

gbob wrote: »

Nobody is claiming they are underpaid, they are saying the same as everyone else that they can't afford another pay cut while executives and management are not subject to the same cuts as they are.

How does the income of a manager affect the ability of a worker to live on a specific wage?

The basic wage for a BE driver on the top scale is around 33k gross. There are many that dont do overtime or get shift allowances or work sundays and would earn very little over the basic. That is a fact, those people can not afford cuts.

So surely, these people aren't actually going to suffer all that much then? They can't lose what they don't have.

Simple as that. One man has told me if the cuts go through he will loose 10k pa and will be better off on the dole. And you'll get your wish.

So he is getting more than €10,000 (perhaps €12,000 if you account for the tax wedge) in Sunday premiums and overtime?

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

IS THIS STRIKE SET FOR MONDAY I.E TOMORROW ?

need answer asap please

Take it that you can't rely on Bus Éireann services for the next few days.

doubletrouble? · 12-05-2013 11:26PM

A few points. If the cuts do come in it's possible some drivers and their families could loose their homes. Next thing is someone brought up s/w payments. What they left out was housing benefits and things like that. When these are added then the s/w payments increase significantly.
Again someone mentioned politics being brought into the subject. This has a huge role here. The government cant afford the €5m so they say but yet the expenses t.d.'s can claim is mind boggling. some of them can claim expenses that far exceed what the average bus driver earns in a year before any deductions from their pay packet. You actually had one t.d. That had free travel due to a pensioners pass and yet they were able to claim travel expenses because they commuted by train. Most if us dont get any sort of allowances. So yeah politics does have big part to play in this thread.

gbob · 12-05-2013 11:27PM

devnull wrote: »

But the Labour Court judgement has been published and is on their website, it lists what Bus Eireann recommended, the disputed points by the unions, and what was recommended by the court.

See here:http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/185190278967d05380256a01005bb35e/80256a770034a2ab80257b0900428efa?OpenDocument

The problem with people with low basic but high premiums and allowances and people with higher basic but lower premiums is always going to be tough to deal with, since whatever you cut, some group of people is always going to be worse off than others, particularly when there are several grades of basic pay as you outline.

For example, if you cut someone on the higher end basic pay to allow others people with lower basic pay to keep their premium, the former are going to be unhappy that their basic pay is being cut when the basic pay of others is being left alone, just as now you have people who rely on allowances on lower pay unhappy that they stand more to lose than those who are on higher pay and rely little on allowances.

And unfortunately there seems to be no mention of a considerable pay gap for new employees, those that are currently temporary will, when appointed start with far lower premium payments and and on a lower scale than what they're on now. Hence the loss of almost all premiums.

Victor · 12-05-2013 11:41PM

doubletrouble? wrote: »

Again someone mentioned politics being brought into the subject. This has a huge role here. The government cant afford the €5m so they say but yet the expenses t.d.'s can claim is mind boggling. some of them can claim expenses that far exceed what the average bus driver earns in a year before any deductions from their pay packet. You actually had one t.d. That had free travel due to a pensioners pass and yet they were able to claim travel expenses because they commuted by train. Most if us dont get any sort of allowances. So yeah politics does have big part to play in this thread.

That sounds disturbing, but is off-topic. Please stay on topic.

Moderator

gbob wrote: »

And unfortunately there seems to be no mention of a considerable pay gap for new employees, those that are currently temporary will, when appointed start with far lower premium payments and and on a lower scale than what they're on now. Hence the loss of almost all premiums.

If they are new (why are there new employees if there has been a redundancy programme?) then they have never had these allowances and so are losing nothing.

ressem · 12-05-2013 11:57PM

Recommendation
The Court Recommends as follows: -

· No change to Sunday bonus for employees rostered for normal duty on Sunday (Double time for basic day)

· Overtime currently paid at double time on Sundays be paid at 1.5 times

· Public Holidays be paid at 1.25 times plus statutory entitlements for a basic day

· All overtime on Public Holidays that was paid at double time to be paid at 1.25 times for the first two hours and at 1.5 times thereafter (overtime and rest days worked)

Recommendation
The Court recommends that these expense payments and allowances by reduced by 20%

· Equalisation allowance
· Meal allowance
· Overnight Allowance
· Outbased Allowance

Recommendation
The Court recommends that the shift payment of 1/6th be reduced to 1/7th and all other shift payments be reduced pro rata.

In line with the Company’s proposal if the financial situation improves significantly this will be reviewed in 2014 with a view to restoring the shift rates to current levels

How are these cuts resulting in 10K per year for a low paid driver?
The big savings are the temporary reduction in holiday and uncertified days, that will cut payments to contractors and other staff.

As for gbob's suggestion earlier of a €1 euro per week for OAPs travel pass, it'd be subtracted from the PSO grant.

If this strike results in 2% of paying expressway customers pemanently changing to citylink etc, the cuts will have to be repeated.

gbob · 12-05-2013 11:58PM

There are temporary drivers at all depots hoping to become permanent, they would be paid the same premium payments as appointed drivers right now, but if these cuts go through and they then become permanent they company want to put them on a different pay and premium rates.

As for why BE have so many temps? Well they obviously want them to remain temporary until this lower pay scale is implemented.

Hilly Bill · 13-05-2013 12:36AM

Just a quick question to any BE staff on here. What did the NBRU officials say about the Labour court recommendation? Did they tell the members to accept it ? Did the members vote against the union forcing the union to fight their corner.

From what i can see , the recommendation isnt too bad and could have been worse and maybe taking the hit might be the best option considering ...

"In line with the Company’s proposal if the financial situation improves significantly this will be reviewed in 2014 with a view to restoring the shift rates to current levels"

Hank Scorpio · 13-05-2013 12:36AM

horrible timing for students, have an exam on Tuesday and no idea how I'm going to get there

Trampas · 13-05-2013 06:48AM

On allowances how much is it costing each one?

On meal allowance is it a case of a driver due a break in edenderry gets whatever it is so he can go to a coffee shop and buy a tea and roll?

If it is then the unions should be using this as a money savings suggestion as the drivers could bring a flask and sambo to work like a lot of workers.

padrageous · 13-05-2013 08:35AM

I bought tickets back to Longford online from Dublin Airport Friday. Anyone know any private operators doing a Dublin - Longford route? Am I eligible for a refund or can the ticket be used on trains?

Itssoeasy · 13-05-2013 08:50AM

A union boss was on morning Ireland there and mentioned there was €70M in CIE that could be used and when Rachel English pushed him he had no idea how it could be accessed. Typical crap. How does he know about it exactly ?