Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

cdebru

To the BE staff posting here, have you asked your union reps why they did not seek legal recourse when BE announced that they would unilaterally change the terms of your contract ?

Would it not have been better to engage a barrister and apply for an injunction preventing BE from breaching the contract they have with you? If your union is unwilling to do so and unable to offer any reasonable explanation as to why they went to the gate instead of the courts would you not consider bypassing your union and collectively engaging a barrister to apply for an injunction?

For what it is worth I think you are being stitched up here, Siptu have not even balloted you on industrial action, the NBRU may or may not have given the required notice. And neither off them have apparently sought to clarify your rights before the courts when an unilateral change was made to your contracts.
Both sides claim to be available for talks but oddly the LRC nor the Labour court have offered to mediate this is really strange.

IMO you guys are being led up the garden path here, They will leave you outside the gate and you will agree to a slightly modified deal after a week or two without any money. 17.5% accepted the deal already available they are gambling that 33% more will soften their cough after a week or 2 of no money.

runawaybishop

cdebru wrote: »

To the BE staff posting here, have you asked your union reps why they did not seek legal recourse when BE announced that they would unilaterally change the terms of your contract ?

Would it not have been better to engage a barrister and apply for an injunction preventing BE from breaching the contract they have with you? If your union is unwilling to do so and unable to offer any reasonable explanation as to why they went to the gate instead of the courts would you not consider bypassing your union and collectively engaging a barrister to apply for an injunction?

For what it is worth I think you are being stitched up here, Siptu have not even balloted you on industrial action, the NBRU may or may not have given the required notice. And neither off them have apparently sought to clarify your rights before the courts when an unilateral change was made to your contracts.
Both sides claim to be available for talks but oddly the LRC nor the Labour court have offered to mediate this is really strange.

IMO you guys are being led up the garden path here, They will leave you outside the gate and you will agree to a slightly modified deal after a week or two without any money. 17.5% accepted the deal already available they are gambling that 33% more will soften their cough after a week or 2 of no money.

So, no deal is made and BE continue to make a massive loss resulting in closure and loss of all jobs. A great outcome for all involved.

rainbowdash

Kumsheen wrote: »

I think the negotiations have gone on long enough and it's impossible to be resolved between BE and the unions themselves. It's probably better just to bring this to a head once and for all and be done with it..

It's really now down to either increased funding or cuts, and the ball is really in the government's court rather than with BE management.

The union is gambling on government intervention to resolve this. My prediction is that the govt will partially give in and we will see some watered down version of cuts eventually agreed.
But the long term effects of this dispute will probably see the govt expedite the opening up more and more bus licenses to private operators, and gradually shrink BE more and more.

Anybody else have any predictions on the final outcome?

I think the ball is not in the governments court, as its a commercial organisation which can be allowed fail.

By the sounds of things, Bus Eireann could easily be let go to the wall, and new privately run bus companies established quite easily, with grants for services in whichever areas need buses.

Deep down I bet the government are delighted that the pan public services front put the bus drivers into bat first, as they can be kept at arms length and allowed to collapse if necessary, and that might calm the rest of the public sector workers.

cdebru

runawaybishop wrote: »

So, no deal is made and BE continue to make a massive loss resulting in closure and loss of all jobs. A great outcome for all involved.

No the company re enter the negotiations they withdrew from 2 weeks ago, and they secure a deal acceptable to all parties. They might start by management taking a hit on their wages as a show of good faith.

rainbowdash

runawaybishop wrote: »

So, no deal is made and BE continue to make a massive loss resulting in closure and loss of all jobs. A great outcome for all involved.

Very few jobs would be lost. Private operators would run all the services probably better, and for less taxpayer funding, employing broadly as many people as bus eireann employ now.

cdebru

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think the ball is not in the governments court, as its a commercial organisation which can be allowed fail.

By the sounds of things, Bus Eireann could easily be let go to the wall, and new privately run bus companies established quite easily, with grants for services in whichever areas need buses.

Deep down I bet the government are delighted that the pan public services front put the bus drivers into bat first, as they can be kept at arms length and allowed to collapse if necessary, and that might calm the rest of the public sector workers.

I have a feeling that it is not just the government that are delighted at how things are progressing, bus drivers heading back to work after a few weeks with no pay and a barely changed deal, would be nice for the leadership of those unions whose members defied them by rejecting CPA2. It might convince some to accept the new slightly improved CPA2.

runawaybishop

cdebru wrote: »

No the company re enter the negotiations they withdrew from 2 weeks ago, and they secure a deal acceptable to all parties. They might start by management taking a hit on their wages as a show of good faith.

Why don't they cut out the bollocks and get straight to this then.

rainbowdash wrote: »

Very few jobs would be lost. Private operators would run all the services probably better, and for less taxpayer funding, employing broadly as many people as bus eireann employ now.

Sounds like a winner for the public tbh, not for the BE employee.

rainbowdash

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why don't they cut out the bollocks and get straight to this then.



Sounds like a winner for the public tbh, not for the BE employee.

That's upto himself really, he could accept the job he has with some reduction in pay and conditions, or maybe look for a new job in a private operator where he would almost definitely be paid a lot less.

He is working in a loss making company and his job is no longer viable, people seem to forget that once state employees of Aer Lingus eventually ended up with "green field" employment, where all the benefits were stripped away and their pay reduced greatly.

As commercial operations Aer Lingus and Bus Eireann are not a million miles apart.

cdebru

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why don't they cut out the bollocks and get straight to this then.



.

Why indeed, maybe because they think the drivers will accept a less favourable deal after a few weeks with no pay and they are setting an example for the other CIE companies.

NobodyImportant

@BE staff, you need a reality check. If this were a private business, you would now be out of work. EVERYONE in this country needs to take a hit and work through this mess (without blaming and sidetracking).

Your cause is not supported by the majority of the country.

Dont forget the Unions actions in the 70's & 80's in the UK. They took a successful car industry and ruined it striking.

Problem123456

NobodyImportant wrote: »

@BE staff, you need a reality check. If this were a private business, you would now be out of work. EVERYONE in this country needs to take a hit and work through this mess (without blaming and sidetracking).

Your cause is not supported by the majority of the country.

Dont forget the Unions actions in the 70's & 80's in the UK. They took a successful car industry and ruined it striking.

I agree^^
Give them until Wednesday and if they still don't want to work let them go.

runawaybishop

cdebru wrote: »

Why indeed, maybe because they think the drivers will accept a less favourable deal after a few weeks with no pay and they are setting an example for the other CIE companies.

Isn't the deal offered pretty reasonable though

Jamie2k9

i don't think they will to be honest

Either do I, if Irish Rail staff want to keep there current wages and not be subject to such cuts as BE staff are then they will stay working as IE position was worse last year and something like this won't help it and staff know this. But then if all CIE operators want job cuts then why not walk off. It will be one way of getting the numbers employed down.

There will be jobs cuts at BE over this and employees and the NBRU need to wake up and unerstand it.

devnull

Apparently they have been invited to the LRC for talks this evening.

If the unions get something in their favour expect them to try and make out that it should be almost binding on the company

If they don't get them in their favour expect them to just ignore whatever happens.

LETS BE AVN IT

This is some joke I'm stuck in Waterford needing to get to cork by tomorrow for an exam. This is disgraceful it cant go on any longer

devnull

LETS BE AVN IT wrote: »

This is some joke I'm stuck in Waterford needing to get to cork by tomorrow for an exam. This is disgraceful it cant go on any longer

I know it's not really that ideal, but have you considered getting two trains?
Waterford to Limerick Junction
and
Limerick Junction to Cork?

I'm not sure if the times suit, but it's an option.

Peppa Pig

LETS BE AVN IT wrote: »

This is some joke I'm stuck in Waterford needing to get to cork by tomorrow for an exam. This is disgraceful it cant go on any longer

Not sure if its any help but there is an early morning car share here.
Getthere.ie

cdebru

runawaybishop wrote: »

Isn't the deal offered pretty reasonable though

What ? those on shifts take all the cuts while management grades that don't work overtime or shifts don't lose a penny.

Yeah very reasonable for those well paid managers.

Actually IMO the company should be completely reorganised and some severe cuts in the number of managers and middle management. I would look at why a company supposedly in danger of going out of business is sponsoring events like the womens football league, Feile, a track cyclist, Christmas on ICE, why they have corporate boxes at Croke Park and the Aviva, why the CEO is paid more than government ministers,
In fact google BE and sponsors and you will see all the sponsorship they have been up to at a time when the company have been racking up losses. Does it add anything to the business how many people get the bus because they sponsor Keira in voice of Ireland ?
I would look at all that and I'm sure there is massive waste in BE address that manage the company properly and then go back to the drivers if you still have a problem.

hoodwinked

if it is a financial issue what i could never understand is why there isn't more in/on bus advertising? they have so much space to sell if they need the cash that badly...

if it isn't then why are they cutting the wages?

either way i hope this gets resolved soon and those drivers don't end up losing their jobs, they have some fantastic drivers in BE from my experience with them...

runawaybishop

cdebru wrote: »

What ? those on shifts take all the cuts while management grades that don't work overtime or shifts don't lose a penny.

Yeah very reasonable for those well paid managers.

Actually IMO the company should be completely reorganised and some severe cuts in the number of managers and middle management. I would look at why a company supposedly in danger of going out of business is sponsoring events like the womens football league, Feile, a track cyclist, Christmas on ICE, why they have corporate boxes at Croke Park and the Aviva, why the CEO is paid more than government ministers,
In fact google BE and sponsors and you will see all the sponsorship they have been up to at a time when the company have been racking up losses. Does it add anything to the business how many people get the bus because they sponsor Keira in voice of Ireland ?
I would look at all that and I'm sure there is massive waste in BE address that manage the company properly and then go back to the drivers if you still have a problem.

Cuts to lunch money, overtime rate and holidays - these are not totally unreasonable. Im not sayign management shouldnt be involved also, but the cuts suggested by LR were not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

Who the hell gets lunch money from their employer these days anyway.

devnull

I agree that there is a lot of waste in Bus Eireann and the above highlighted things do need to be cut back, but at the end of the day there still will need to be some kind of contribution from front line staff to make up some of the 5 million.

cdebru

runawaybishop wrote: »

Cuts to lunch money, overtime rate and holidays - these are not totally unreasonable. Im not sayign management shouldnt be involved also, but the cuts suggested by LR were not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

Who the hell gets lunch money from their employer these days anyway.

Cuts to overtime rates and holidays are unreasonable when there is so much money being wasted and it is only focussed on the shift workers. Especially as I understand some overtime is built into shifts so it is effectively compulsary overtime.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

I agree that there is a lot of waste in Bus Eireann and the above highlighted things do need to be cut back, but at the end of the day there still will need to be some kind of contribution from front line staff to make up some of the 5 million.

Agreed a fair contribution though. Not one that takes just from the shift workers and leaves all the waste in place.

Stheno

cdebru wrote: »

Cuts to overtime rates and holidays are unreasonable when there is so much money being wasted and it is only focussed on the shift workers. Especially as I understand some overtime is built into shifts so it is effectively compulsary overtime.

But aren't the admin/executive staff also facing cuts?

The recommendation from the LRC was for

An increase in the working week for clerical and executive staff from 36 hours to 39 hours
Reduction in premium payments (such as Sunday payments) to be x1.5 payments rather than double payments
Reduction in annual leave entitlement by 3 days for the next three years
Reduction in allowances and expense payments by 20 per cent

So clerical/executive staff are having to work 8% more time for no extra pay and their leave entitlement is also being cut?

Mrs OBumble

LETS BE AVN IT wrote: »

This is some joke I'm stuck in Waterford needing to get to cork by tomorrow for an exam. This is disgraceful it cant go on any longer

Try Twitter ... #liftfairy

end of the road

NobodyImportant wrote: »

@BE staff, you need a reality check. If this were a private business, you would now be out of work.

well it isn't a private business, so get over it, apart from competition, the private sector isn't the problem of drivers working in the public transport companies

NobodyImportant wrote: »

EVERYONE in this country needs to take a hit and work through this mess (without blaming and sidetracking).

well it seems everyone doesn't have to take a hit, how much of a hit are BE, IE, DB, management taking?

NobodyImportant wrote: »

Your cause is not supported by the majority of the country.

have you asked the majority of the country? i suspect you may be right but lets face it, the majority of the country wouldn't support anyone private or public sector who would try keep a certain standard of pay and working conditions.
the truth is much of the general public will sit there and take whatever is thrown at them no matter how much they would have to lose and would look down on those trying to keep what they have.
remember yes to jobs anyone? a reason not to take some of the public seriously in this country

NobodyImportant wrote: »

Dont forget the Unions actions in the 70's & 80's in the UK. They took a successful car industry and ruined it striking.

i'm sure their were a lot more things at play but shur just blame the unions for it all anyway.

end of the road

Problem123456 wrote: »

Give them until Wednesday and if they still don't want to work let them go.

and tax you more to pay for their dole, good idea, its not as if you'l try do anything about it apart from pay up

Agent Mug

The real problem here is the government everything was moving along nicely at meeting between management and unions up until a few weeks back when management walk into the last meeting they had and told unions that they where implementing these new cuts and walk out of the meeting, outside of the meeting room management on the quiet told unions that their hand where tied by the government and these cuts are going ahead whether the unions like it or not, this is not what management in Bus Eireann wanted to happen because talks where moving along in a progressive way.

The sad thing about all of this is this is not just Bus Eireann Drivers that is going to be hit with more cut back but all of us and there will be more to come, it's time now for all the unions in our country to join together and all out, the future of the working class people in our country is been threaten and it time we all stood up to the bully's in government, the cost of living keep going up while the fat cats in government keeps cutting our wages, but they're well look after for all they have to do is do what the other fat cats in government did walk away with their big fat pensions.

Its time we show all the political party that we're not going to suffer anymore cuts for their stupidity and yea I know government of today inherit the problem and now they're only adding to it, wake up people and let put a stop to this madness once and for all, enough is enough.

All Out.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I know it's not really that ideal, but have you considered getting two trains?
Waterford to Limerick Junction
and
Limerick Junction to Cork?

I'm not sure if the times suit, but it's an option.

beat me to it

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Agent Mug wrote: »

The real problem here is the government everything was moving along nicely at meeting between management and unions up until a few weeks back when management walk into the last meeting they had and told unions that they where implementing these new cuts and walk out of the meeting, outside of the meeting room management on the quiet told unions that their hand where tied by the government and these cuts are going ahead whether the unions like it or not, this is not what management in Bus Eireann wanted to happen because talks where moving along in a progressive way.

The sad thing about all of this is this is not just Bus Eireann Drivers that is going to be hit with more cut back but all of us and there will be more to come, it's time now for all the unions in our country to join together and all out, the future of the working class people in our country is been threaten and it time we all stood up to the bully's in government, the cost of living keep going up while the fat cats in government keeps cutting our wages, but they're well look after for all they have to do is do what the other fat cats in government did walk away with their big fat pensions.

Its time we show all the political party that we're not going to suffer anymore cuts for their stupidity and yea I know government of today inherit the problem and now they're only adding to it, wake up people and let put a stop to this madness once and for all, enough is enough.

All Out.

Off topic but can you provide a legitimate source for this information?

I think its extremely unfair that management aren't taking any cuts while the front line are bearing the brunt. I think the LRCs recommendations are mostly ok, but it was foolish of management to not impose some sort of cut on themselves. I mean surely they saw this type of response coming? How could they not?