running a boiler dry

pa990

What are the risks or dangers of running out of home heating oil (kero). Besides having to bleed it.

Will it damage the pump ?

QBE

it can damage the oil pump and burner by drawing dirt into filters and nozzle ect. however if the fuel lines and tank are clean (don't worry) and you should have filters on the line.(again don't worry).
if you have no oil . the actuator will not open on the oil burner and boiler/ burner will cut out. The red light will come on at the reset button . You can try to restart .but it will cut out again.
so I wouldn't worry to much. get a fill off oil and bleed at the correct point. If the oil boiler/burner don't come on after you have bleed the oil line (correctly). Possibilty dirt got drawn into the filters ect ,
An oil burner should be serviced once a year. (IMO gas boilers don't. Ill get eat by the rgii installers over that . But that's my opinion). Gas is a very clean fuel compared to oil and you can obtain a better efficiency with oil but needs proper combustion and nozzle . So have a service especially on the burner , every year.

QBE

sorry just to clarify. Gas is cheaper than oil. What I mean is you obtain a higher rate of effiency with an oil burner than with a gas boiler. By getting the correct combustion.

Also invest in a CO detector for gas boilers and make sure you check they are working regulary. If you don't get the yearly service. I service my gas boiler myself. However if I had oil. I would service my burner every year and just check that the baffels and chambers of the boiler and flue are not to dirty and clean if required.
My Mother has the same oil boiler 25 years. The same oil Burner the last 12. I have Serviced her burner every year since it went in, many parts added like nozzle , solanide ect. It is Not the most efficient but works like a dream. My gas boiler is in 12 years old. I only serviced it twice. Only ever had to replace the fan. Works perfect. I just checked its combustion last week.
So that tells a story in itself. Id be more inclined to worry about the condition of the water supply in the heating system with my own gas heating. In any heating system that's the main reasons for problems outside (electric)mechanically operated valves and actuators (stats, motorised valves) ect failing.

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

sorry just to clarify. Gas is cheaper than oil. What I mean is you obtain a higher rate of effiency with an oil burner than with a gas boiler. By getting the correct combustion.

Also invest in a CO detector for gas boilers and make sure you check they are working regulary. If you don't get the yearly service. I service my gas boiler myself. However if I had oil. I would service my burner every year and just check that the baffels and chambers of the boiler and flue are not to dirty and clean if required.
My Mother has the same oil boiler 25 years. The same oil Burner the last 12. I have Serviced her burner every year since it went in, many parts added like nozzle , solanide ect. It is Not the most efficient but works like a dream. My gas boiler is in 12 years old. I only serviced it twice. Only ever had to replace the fan. Works perfect. I just checked its combustion last week.
So that tells a story in itself. Id be more inclined to worry about the condition of the water supply in the heating system with my own gas heating. In any heating system that's the main reasons for problems outside (electric)mechanically operated valves and actuators (stats, motorised valves) ect failing.

Are you for real QBE?
Anyone out there now reading your post and are due a service will probably not bother with a service now and put themselves in danger.
Only a few weeks ago I serviced a boiler that was perfect last year, but over the year pinholes appeared in the flue and air intake was mixing with the fumes. Well over 1,000 ppm CO was being pumped out. What if the customer had your attitude to yearly servicing??

Dtp79

And not to mention the amount of gas leaks I've come across when soundness testing

QBE

Highlight the dangers that will happen Bearing in mind a CO detector is fitted?
Soundness test ill agree with. Saftey devices for that are?

I did say it was IMO. But old boilers I would advice every year. Every 2 years after would be fine for newer boilers. IMO

Also depends on how many hours it has been used.

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

Highlight the dangers that will happen Bearing in mind a CO detector is fitted?
Soundness test ill agree with. Saftey devices for that are?

I did say it was IMO. But old boilers I would advice every year. Every 2 years after would be fine for newer boilers. IMO

You can't use a CO detector to prove the safety of a boiler. Its a last resort measure only.
Your opinion is probably worth something to people on here and because of you they now will probably say " ah shur he's a gas man. If he says it's ok every few years then grand ". Meanwhile there could be a leak on the gas line, leak in the flue or god knows what

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

You can't use a CO detector to prove the safety of a boiler. Its a last resort measure only.
Your opinion is probably worth something to people on here and because of you they now will probably say " ah shur he's a gas man. If he says it's ok every few years then grand ". Meanwhile there could be a leak on the gas line, leak in the flue or god knows what

ok get your boiler serviced every year. it is better to be safe than sorry.

I get my car serviced every 10k miles. So does the wife. Some times I get a service twice a year. its 18 mths since the mrs got hers serviced.

QBE

I think the dangers of gas fires should be highlighted more. Especially gas fires. How many get them inspected or serviced?
My 2 biggest fears with gas or oil would be
1.incorrect atomizing from an oil burner
2. gas fires
Id have the gas fire serviced and assessed before the boiler

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

I think the dangers of gas fires and hobs ect should be highlighted more. Especially gas fires. How many get them inspected or serviced?
My 2 biggest fears with gas or oil would be

1.incorrect atomizing from an oil burner
2. gas fires

Yes I agree. I always make my customers aware of the dangers of gas fires if they have one fitted. I always inspect the entire system including hob and fire when I do a boiler service.

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

Yes I agree. I always make my customers aware of the dangers of gas fires if they have one fitted. I always inspect the entire system including hob and fire when I do a boiler service.

boilers have many safty functions.

Blocked flue boiler cuts out.
Blocked flue fire still works.

gas leak. you smell. CO you don't.

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

boilers have many safty functions.

Blocked flue boiler cuts out.
Blocked flue fire still works.

gas leak. you smell. CO you don't.

Couldn't agree more

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more

thanks.

But I should have mentioned proper combustion is the main part of an efficient and safe appliance.

And in any service. That's the main question should be asked by the customer.

Billy Bunting

IMHO there is a huge safety factor in an annual service and any right minded RGI shouldnt be giving advice that contradicts MI, safety items are not a alternative to an annual service.

QBE

Billy Bunting wrote: »

IMHO there is a huge safety factor in an annual service and any right minded RGI shouldnt be giving advice that contradicts MI, safety items are not a alternative to an annual service.

Well in that case what I should say is . I have many years experience of stripping large scale boilers and burners . I would know what would require a service and what wouldn't. So If you have no knowledge or experience. Its better to get your boiler serviced every year.

However My biggest fears are the same atomizing of oil and gas fires.

Billy Bunting

QBE wrote: »

Well in that case what I should say is . I have many years experience of stripping large scale boilers and burners . I would know what would require a service and what wouldn't. So If you have no knowledge or experience. Its better to get your boiler serviced every year.

And i would imagine most RGI's here with equal experience would advice that its better to get your boiler serviced annually and never rely on a CO alarm as your first line of defence.

QBE

Billy Bunting wrote: »

And i would imagine most RGI's here with equal experience would advice that its better to get your boiler serviced annually and never rely on a CO alarm as your first line of defence.

I don't want to go down that road. It will only end up messy.

I have stripped and put back together the biggest of industrial boilers and burners. As well aswell as serviced and commissioned.

However the main point was oil burners would require more servicing than a gas boiler as oil is not as clean a fuel as gas and Ill stand by that.

and what ever you think of CO detectors. I think they should be compulsory part of the appliance by law.

pa990

QBE wrote: »

it can damage the oil pump and burner by drawing dirt into filters and nozzle ect. however if the fuel lines and tank are clean (don't worry) and you should have filters on the line.(again don't worry).
if you have no oil . the actuator will not open on the oil burner and boiler/ burner will cut out. The red light will come on at the reset button . You can try to restart .but it will cut out again.
so I wouldn't worry to much. get a fill off oil and bleed at the correct point. If the oil boiler/burner don't come on after you have bleed the oil line (correctly). Possibilty dirt got drawn into the filters ect ,
An oil burner should be serviced once a year. (IMO gas boilers don't. Ill get eat by the rgii installers over that . But that's my opinion). Gas is a very clean fuel compared to oil and you can obtain a better efficiency with oil but needs proper combustion and nozzle . So have a service especially on the burner , every year.

Thanks
i still have some oil left in the tank, but it will prob run dry over the coming month (not getting a lot of use lately ) and will fill up in july when hopefully oil prices will be at a yearly low

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

boilers have many safty functions.

Blocked flue boiler cuts out.
Blocked flue fire still works.

gas leak. you smell. CO you don't.

Blocked flue on a HE boiler ? No fan proving switch on those. Nor oil boilers!

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

Blocked flue on a HE boiler ? No fan proving switch on those. Nor oil boilers!

blocked flue was an example I used . never mentioned names of boilers oil or gas. Below was my quote.

boilers have many safty functions.

Blocked flue boiler cuts out.
Blocked flue fire still works.

gas leak. you smell. CO you don't.

Now where do I mention all boilers, oil or gas?

Flame Roll Out ?

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

Blocked flue on a HE boiler ? No fan proving switch on those. Nor oil boilers!

do you know what a roll out switch is? or do you want me to tell you?:rolleyes:

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

do you know what a roll out switch is? or do you want me to tell you?:rolleyes:

I know what a roll out switch is but that dosent stop CO being produced. I think you'd be better off in the Rgi tech forum. You are RGI aren't you??

QBE

QBE wrote: »

do you know what a roll out switch is? or do you want me to tell you?:rolleyes:

I don't know what a roll out switch is but what I do know is if tradesmen stick to what they know and stay away from what they don't then the world is a safer place.

Your thoughts on gas boilers are wrong. Misunderstandings/complacancy about the safety of domestic HE boilers has led to numerous deaths and nearly my own, its because of this gas boilers should be checked every year and engineers should carry personal alarms(if they want to pontificate on boards)

.jacksparrow.

QBE wrote: »

I don't want to go down that road. It will only end up messy.

I have stripped and put back together the biggest of industrial boilers and burners. As well aswell as serviced and commissioned.

However the main point was oil burners would require more servicing than a gas boiler as oil is not as clean a fuel as gas and Ill stand by that.

and what ever you think of CO detectors. I think they should be compulsory part of the appliance by law.

You must do a lot of work with steam boilers aswell.

QBE

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

You must do a lot of work with steam boilers aswell.

I did over the years. Actually adjusted boilers to create steam in other to clean pipework lines. great job. ever try it?

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

I know what a roll out switch is but that dosent stop CO being produced. I think you'd be better off in the Rgi tech forum. You are RGI aren't you??

RGI registration all sorted .

That's good. Lots of more safty devises in modern boilers. But that's best kept a secret or for the rgi forum.

well a bit of tech then outside rgi forum.Before the gas analyser. What was used. a smoke pump & a thermostat . Id still beable to service a boiler safely. With a gauge and the above, But the regs are printouts now.

sullzz

QBE wrote: »

do you know what a roll out switch is? or do you want me to tell you?:rolleyes:

Please name 1 domestic gas boiler which has a roll out switch .
Im not talking about a fsd or an ionisation probe , an actual roll out switch.

QBE

sullzz wrote: »

Please name 1 domestic gas boiler which has a roll out switch .
Im not talking about a fsd or an ionisation probe , an actual roll out switch.

none I know of. I just wanted to see if he knew what was what. Someone did when they mentioned steam.

sullzz

QBE wrote: »

none I know of. I just wanted to see if he knew what was what. Someone did when they mentioned steam.

They are not only used on steam boilers , they are used on gas boilers / water heaters too

QBE

gary71 wrote: »

Misunderstandings/complacancy about the safety has led to numerous deaths

I think that would be better describe some appliances not just one type of boiler (appliances).

QBE

@ sullz.
I know . You asked what domestic boilers are they fitted to. I said I dont know of any. That's why the original question asked the lad . did he know what it was. Because they are fitted to boilers and are a great safty function.


combustion and tempeture, you understand me? CO


you know about steam ststems and how well they work. you got the basics

QBE

QBE wrote: »

I think that would be better describe some appliances not just one type of boiler (appliances).

No in these cases the deaths were caused purely by the gas installers not understanding the changes in technolagy and assuming that what they had learned from other gas appliances crossed over on to High Efficiency boilers, as a HE gas boiler can still work with the flue joints disconnected(unlike standard efficiency) a greater deal of respect would of prevented needless deaths.

esox28

However the main point was oil burners would require more servicing than a gas boiler as oil is not as clean a fuel as gas and Ill stand by that.

Can I just pick up on this point there are others that have concerned me. I'll start by saying that I've the greatest respect for your points, but this statement is unhelpfull and daming, as someone who is working in the industrial end of thing you of all people should know that servicing oil or gas boilers, no matter how clean or dirty you view the fuel being used for combustion makes no difference to the frequency of servicing this is set down by mi's.

Also hoovering out the dirt or just flies in gas boilers this accounts for about 10% of the service.
I've seen a gas boiler running at 2900 ppm Co coming from the flue, the fg' s were as clear a air.
A oil boiler with 150 ppmCo would be reading 3-4 on a smoke card, but which is deadly and which is just "dirty"

As rgi's we have the responsibility of ensuring the saftey of gas appliances operating in the public domain. I'm not going to get into any more as it has been very well posted in 'servicing sticky' and its plane to see what an annex c is all about.

QBE

gary71 wrote: »

No in these cases the deaths were caused purely by the gas installers not understanding the changes in technolagy and assuming that what they had learned from other gas appliances crossed over on to High Efficiency boilers, as a HE gas boiler can still work with the flue joints disconnected(unlike standard efficiency) a greater deal of respect would of prevented needless deaths.

id agree 100% with you on that gary71. That's my point about apprenticeships and updating skills. its is a sore point with me when I see untrained time served men enter the industry to become tech .

If your timed served and update skills.these risks are minimum.

As for He boilers are not all they are made out to be? especially persific systems. This has been proved in the uk.

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

Can I just pick up on this point there are others that have concerned me. I'll start by saying that I've the greatest respect for your points, but this statement is unhelpfull and daming, as someone who is working in the industrial end of thing you of all people should know that servicing oil or gas boilers, no matter how clean or dirty you view the fuel being used for combustion makes no difference to the frequency of servicing this is set down by mi's.

Also hoovering out the dirt or just flies in gas boilers this accounts for about 10% of the service.
I've seen a gas boiler running at 2900 ppm Co coming from the flue, the fg' s were as clear a air.
A oil boiler with 150 ppmCo would be reading 3-4 on a smoke card, but which is deadly and which is just "dirty"

As rgi's we have the responsibility of ensuring the saftey of gas appliances operating in the public domain. I'm not going to get into any more as it has been very well posted in 'servicing sticky' and its plane to see what an annex c is all about.

you probably understand where Im coming from. In relation to my points. However that's 1 experienced man to another.

I think the point I really was getting at is. For a better efficient system . oil burners requires more tender loving care than gas. However safty should be adhered to at all times.

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

As rgi's we have the responsibility of ensuring the saftey of gas appliances operating in the public domain. .

and should also be trained to be honest . I called to see a protential client today.
The rgi (I assume) as he quoted for installing a new condensing boiler, told the lady of the house to renew the heating system pipework and update the boiler. He was employed to clean the heating system, but found a leak.

He wants to renew the copper pipes with plastic (gob****e) and I had a look and the boilers fine. A few adjustments needed. Can I report him to rgi, Ill sort all this ladies problems out for less than 500/600e.

be safe be wise....should be the motto

esox28

Quote:


As for He boilers are not all they are made out to be? especially persific systems. This has been proved in the uk.

what?

Where are you getting these statements from and basing it on....are you trying to bring the industary down by posting your rgii view point which is obviously bull, do you need me to explane how a he boiler operates, but im sure you will probley, but you'll be saying its only 15% increase in effency why bother sure they proved it doesn't save you money its all a big conspiracy created by the boiler manufacturers, same in the motor industry.

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

what?

Where are you getting these statements from and basing it on....are you trying to bring the industary down by posting your rgii view point which is obviously bull, do you need me to explane how a he boiler operates, but im sure you will probley, but you'll be saying its only 15% increase in effency why bother sure they proved it doesn't save you money its all a big conspiracy created by the boiler manufacturers, same in the motor industry.

the English government passed procedure before the time agreed for condensing boilers to be compulsive. You save fcuk all on oil. (it could be a dearer procedure) it depends on use , the price of boiler and the savings. Tempeture is lower . so incorrect sized rads need more heat. lower tempetures froze condensing traps. do you want me to really fcukin do a hole list and explain the basics of heating?

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

what?

1. are you trying to bring the industary down by posting your rgii view point

2. which is obviously bull, do you need me to explane how a he boiler operates.

1. I am my own man.

2. Ill accept an opology

esox28

Yea sure go on and explane the basics of heating and why the public shouldent waste there cash installing a he versus standard and save €250 and break the current regs.

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

Yea sure go on and explane the basics of heating and why the public shouldent waste there cash installing a he versus standard and save €250 and break the current regs.

before I go any further. I want you to confirm the following is incorrect or correct.
I posted and asked
it depends on use , the price of boiler and the savings. Tempeture is lower . so incorrect sized rads need more heat. lower tempetures froze condensing traps.
will you answer please?

I am highlighting a rectro fit with these boilers? you do know how to size rads and the basics of heating . don't you? Your an rgi contractor.

jimf

qbe so would i right in thinking if a customer contacts you to fit a new he oil boiler you will be advising them to stick with their old pile of crap std eff as they will be saving zilch i dont think so ?????

QBE

jimf wrote: »

qbe so would i right in thinking if a customer contacts you to fit a new he oil boiler you will be advising them to stick with their old pile of crap std eff as they will be saving zilch i dont think so ?????

no. ill do what is morally right and should be known by all. ill advice on Comfort , economy and safety.

After evaluating the cost of a new system. sizing the system ect and then compare the cost of a rectro fit against savings. then Ill give the client the option.

if they wish to keep their pile of crap as you call it. that's fine by me. but when I leave it will be working aswell as some new boilers are fitted. got me?

esox28

I'm not even going there, their are many posts on this subject and disuussed in depth many times, look them up if you need to.
what im saying is as a gas-oil installer we don't get to be our own man we are governed by codes of practice, Irish building regulations and British standards some cases. So saying a boiler doesn't need servicing due to burning clean flue or not installing he boilers into a building because rad output isent suitable for creating the require return temp for a he boiler to condence mode, well come on man we work in simmular industries but that opion just doesn't cut it for me.

jimf

but when I leave it will be working aswell as some new boilers are fitted. got me?


you have arrived just in time to save the world from all the cowboy installers and yes i think ive got you

esox28

I know how to size rads...even been known to fit them.

Have rgi no...

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

I'm not even going there, their are many posts on this subject and disuussed in depth many times, look them up if you need to.
what im saying is as a gas-oil installer we don't get to be our own man we are governed by codes of practice, Irish building regulations and British standards some cases. So saying a boiler doesn't need servicing due to burning clean flue or not installing he boilers into a building because rad output isent suitable for creating the require return temp for a he boiler to condence mode, well come on man we work in simmular industries but that opion just doesn't cut it for me.

your fcukin beaten. that's the answer. I don't need to look anything up. my knowledge is in my head.

I am my own man. I produce figures and stats. regs cant beat that. I can explain savings on old boilers. cost of new ones. your total savings. isn't it all about a cost saving factor? or am I wrong. I don't think so.

what is the return flow rate on a condensing boiler approx.? the rads that where heating fine with old boiler. are not heating as well now due to rectrofit. tempeture needs to be increased to allow the rads to heat the same as the old system. Do you allow for all these factors.

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

I know how to size rads...even been known to fit them.

Have rgi no...

That's one step. very good. now another.

so a house built in (lets say) 1970 . is the heat load calculation. the same as 2010. or whats the difference? do you work out heat loss at m/sq. and define in watts? are you really giving the client the full details?

or just saying . what you hear.

I know a brickie with an rgi no. your names not ben is it.

esox28

Your totally missing the point aagain, don't make me laugh the return temp on what? with the rubbish you wrote on gas boilers tonight I don't need to justify stats.

QBE

esox28 wrote: »

Your totally missing the point aagain, don't make me laugh the return temp on what? with the rubbish you wrote on gas boilers tonight I don't need to justify stats.

Whats the differnce between the flow rate and return rate on a condensing boiler ? you need to know the answer to that first, before I can proceed.

ok. ill make it simple as I make it for my clients. bearing in mind your an rgi installer with all this relevant knowledge.

is it about cost or a new system? if its about cost. ill show you the savings involved. sometimes the cost of installation outbeats the service. you got me?

esox28

Oh and would we be taking into consideration the air tightness of the 1970 house or the ach of the 2010 with a value of less than 50q a wall make of .15w/m*k. with a sw orentation, don't think for one second your little meres calculator with have the answer for the heat input requirements for the modern day energy efficent house..