Is rape always about power?

Three Seasons

Dave! wrote: »

I've long been skeptical about this conventional wisdom. It seems to me that rape happens for many reasons, but high up the list is sexual gratification, violence and control being the means by which that is achieved.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Completely agree, it seems like propaganda to me. Say something enough times and people will believe it.

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

Ok so then muggings are about power by using your logic.

Rape give the rapist sexual satisfaction through the use of force (real or threatened).

Muggings satisfy the muggers desire for 'stuff'* through the use of force (real or threatened).

Both use the power of force or implied force to get what they want. In a mugging the mugger materially gains from his crime, in a rape the rapist gains nothing materially, but gains sexual dominance and satisfaction. They are fundamentally different crimes.

Three Seasons

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Technically it is. It's stealing something from someone by force using power.

The motivation behind a mugging would usually be to acquire something from the person mugged. The fact that force and power are used is just matter of mechanics. A mugger usually just wants money or whatever, they don't care about the fact they used force to obtain it. That is just a byproduct.

kiffer

... is rape always about power?
Everyone is talking about the rapist... maybe for the rapist it's not about power or maybe it is... depending on what ever reasoning rapists use...

For the victim it's about power... having the power to say "No" stripped away. Power over their own body taken from them.

At least that's the way I understand it...

Tombi!

Three Seasons wrote: »

The motivation behind a mugging would usually be to acquire something from the person mugged. The fact that force and power are used is just matter of mechanics. A mugger usually just wants money or whatever, they don't care about the fact they used force to obtain it. That is just a byproduct.

But it's about using power to get what you want. It's not a matter of mechanics. It's a matter of choosing to mug someone, which involves choosing to attack them/coerce them

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

Rape give the rapist sexual satisfaction through the use of force (real or threatened).

Muggings satisfy the muggers desire for 'stuff'* through the use of force (real or threatened).

Both use the power of force or implied force to get what they want. In a mugging the mugger materially gains from his crime, in a rape the rapist gains nothing materially, but gains sexual dominance and satisfaction. They are fundamentally different crimes.

Your assuming the rapist gets sexual satisfaction from the power, how do you know that?

somefeen

What if its about sexual gratification from power?
Or just sexual gratification and using force to get it?
Or you know, just power or sex.

To the victim maybe its all about power, but to a rapist?

I don't see the point in claiming its all about power. To me its just something people say that sounds correct and modern but really its a very black and white point of view or people have it back to front.

I would lump that 'wisdom' in with 'gender is a social construct'. tbh

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

Your assuming the rapist gets sexual satisfaction from the power, how do you know that?

Are you suggesting that rape doesn't involve sexual dominance over another? Taking sex by force is what rape IS.

If the rapist doesn't need the dominance to get his jollies, he wouldn't be a rapist, surely.

Tombi!

Candie wrote: »

Are you suggesting that rape doesn't involve sexual dominance over another? Taking sex by force is what rape IS.

If the rapist doesn't need the dominance to get his jollies, he wouldn't be a rapist, surely.

I think his argument is that it might not always be about power for the rapist but it can become that.
I mean if a girl says no and I rape her, that doesn't mean I set out with the intention of exerting power over her.

Dave!

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

But at the end of the day, let's say you rape a woman because she said "no" while you naked about to go at it... you clearly want to have sex but the moment you try using power to force her to have sex, it becomes more about power and less about sex.

I don't follow. Why wouldn't it still be about sex? Power would be a necessary tool which helps you to get the sex.

Tombi!

Dave! wrote: »

I don't follow. Why wouldn't it still be about sex? Power would be a necessary tool which helps you to get the sex.

Which then becomes less about sex and more about forcing her to have sex. So it becomes about power.

Galwayguy35

dd972 wrote: »

I can never get my mind round the notion that only the victims of male rape in U.S Prisons are 'Gay' and the perpetrators aren't, (even with the stigma of being the bitch ) surely the perpetrators have to be that way inclined to be able to do that.

Maybe in some cases rapists of men in prison may be gay but I doubt it would be the case all of the time.

Brutal Deluxe

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I think his argument is that it might not always be about power for the rapist but it can become that.
I mean if a girl says no and I rape her, that doesn't mean I set out with the intention of exerting power over her.

I accept that, but rape and power are highly intertwined.

If a girl says no and you rape her, your intention may not be to exert power in the form of force, or your motivation may not be about power, but it's an inescapable ingredient in the mix. The sexual dominance of another is the assertion of power, as is physical dominance, psychological dominance etc.

A Primal Nut

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Technically it is. It's stealing something from someone by force using power.

So power is the method, not the motivation.

Tombi!

A Primal Nut wrote: »

So power is the method, not the motivation.

And like Candie just said, if you want to have sex and the other person says no, it's still a vital part of it.
Method or motivation, it doesn't matter. Some cases of rape go from people setting out to rape which power is the motivation and others, end up with people refusing to accept no for an answer then rape, then it's still about power, even if that's the method used.

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

So power is the method, not the motivation.

Agree with that.
I don't think we can understand why, we just know it's carried out by disgusting human beings who care about nobody but themselves.

A Primal Nut

A Primal Nut wrote: »

So its the method, not the motivation.

If someone wanted sex without the element of dominance, wouldn't they find another, easier or less criminal, way though?

Is it not the power of taking the sex through force that provides the excitement? Surely it's what makes sex be rape?

A Primal Nut

dd972 wrote: »

I can never get my mind round the notion that only the victims of male rape in U.S Prisons are 'Gay' and the perpetrators aren't, (even with the stigma of being the bitch ) surely the perpetrators have to be that way inclined to be able to do that.

Eh? Who said that victims of male rape in U.S. prisons are gay? That makes no sense.

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

Are you suggesting that rape doesn't involve sexual dominance over another? Taking sex by force is what rape IS.

If the rapist doesn't need the dominance to get his jollies, he wouldn't be a rapist, surely.

Taking a wallet by force is what mugging is.

Maybe the rapist just wants sex so they rape someone. Maybe it's quicker for the rapist to get sex through rape than conventional means or maybe the rapist wants to have sex with someone more attractive than they could otherwise obtain it.

Maybe the rapist at a party sees a drunk woman and sees it as an easier opportunity to get sex by raping her than alternative options. There are countless scenarios, im baffled by the assumption all rapists are motivated by power.

How do you know what goes on in every single rapists mind?

Tombi!

Three Seasons wrote: »

Taking a wallet by force is what mugging is.

Maybe the rapist just wants sex so they rape someone. Maybe it's quicker for the rapist to get sex through rape than conventional means or maybe the rapist wants to have sex with someone more attractive than they could otherwise obtain it.

Maybe the rapist at a party sees a drunk woman and sees it as an easier opportunity to get sex by raping her than alternative options. There are countless scenarios, im baffled by the assumption all rapists are motivated by power.

How do you know what goes on in every single rapists mind?

Generally speaking, rape is about power. With the sole exception of the "wont take no for an answer" scenario, I can't really see what it's not about power.
You set out to force someone to do something the you're setting out to exert your power of them. Even if you try to justify it, it doesn't change the actions.

As for the party thing, still a key element there. That person passed already can't say no, so you're using the fact they're powerless to say no/stop you

Brutal Deluxe

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Generally speaking, rape is about power. With the sole exception of the "wont take no for an answer" scenario, I can't really see what it's not about power.
You set out to force someone to do something the you're setting out to exert your power of them. Even if you try to justify it, it doesn't change the actions.

As for the party thing, still a key element there. That person passed already can't say no, so you're using the fact they're powerless to say no/stop you

Generally speaking?
Generalise much?

Tombi!

Bam Bam Mickey wrote: »

Generally speaking?
Generalise much?

Well, I can link you to sources that back that up if you like?

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

Taking a wallet by force is what mugging is.

Maybe the rapist just wants sex so they rape someone. Maybe it's quicker for the rapist to get sex through rape than conventional means or maybe the rapist wants to have sex with someone more attractive than they could otherwise obtain it.

Maybe the rapist at a party sees a drunk woman and sees it as an easier opportunity to get sex by raping her than alternative options. There are countless scenarios, im baffled by the assumption all rapists are motivated by power.

How do you know what goes on in every single rapists mind?

Never claimed to, but in all those scenarios you mention power is used.

A rapist wants sex with a more attractive woman and decides to take it by force? How is power not an issue in that scenario?

A drunk and incapacitated woman? She is completely powerless before the rapist, so power is at play there.

There are many reasons why a man might rape, but power is an ever present ingredient, a constant in the face of other fluctuating factors.

Three Seasons

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Generally speaking, rape is about power. With the sole exception of the "wont take no for an answer" scenario, I can't really see what it's not about power.
You set out to force someone to do something the you're setting out to exert your power of them. Even if you try to justify it, it doesn't change the actions.

As for the party thing, still a key element there. That person passed already can't say no, so you're using the fact they're powerless to say no/stop you

Ok are muggings about power?

Tombi!

Three Seasons wrote: »

Ok are muggings about power?

Pretty much. Rape is using power to get sex and a mugging is using power to get an item(s)

Three Seasons

Candie wrote: »

Never claimed to, but in all those scenarios you mention power is used.

A rapist wants sex with a more attractive woman and decides to take it by force? How is power not an issue in that scenario?

A drunk and incapacitated woman? She is completely powerless before the rapist, so power is at play there.

There are many reasons why a man might rape, but power is an ever present ingredient, a constant in the face of other fluctuating factors.

Ok when I say "about power" I mean motivated by power.

You could equally say when a mugger wants a wallet they take it by force? How is that not an issue of power?

You are getting vaguer and vaguer now using the term "issue of power".

Anything could be classed an "issue of power".

When a mugger steals my phone and I run after them a take it back by force my motivation is getting my phone back, not power. I couldn't care less about power, I just want my phone back, force is simply the means used in that specific scenario of getting my phone back.

Three Seasons

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Pretty much. Rape is using power to get sex and a mugging is using power to get an item(s)

The motivation isn't power, the mugger doesn't care about power, the mugger just wants your wallet.

It is pointless and irrelevant to mention "power".

Why do we never here similar rhetoric about that muggings "are about power, not the stolen item".

FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

List of Rape Myths, Sociology of Rape, Uni of Minnesota.

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

Tombi!

Three Seasons wrote: »

The motivation isn't power, the mugger doesn't care about power, the mugger just wants your wallet.

It is pointless and irrelevant to mention "power".

Why do we never here similar rhetoric about that muggings "are about power, not the stolen item".

It's the same argument though.
Literally the same, replace (in this case wallet) with sex.

The mugger wants your wallet and will use force/intimidation to get it.
The rapist wants sex and will use force/intimidation to get it.

Three Seasons

Three Seasons wrote: »

The motivation isn't power, the mugger doesn't care about power, the mugger just wants your wallet.

It is pointless and irrelevant to mention "power".

Why do we never here similar rhetoric about that muggings "are about power, not the stolen item".

Because the sexual dominance and degradation of a victim is not a wallet or consumer item.