Why do extremist Muslims hate/fear women so much?

Nodin

clairefontaine wrote: »

No you didn't. You answered one you imagined. And not very well either.

Well, I answered this.....you seem to have missed that.

What other faiths have extremists on par with Muslim extremists?

seenitall

clairefontaine wrote: »

No you didn't. You answered one you imagined. And not very well either.

Really?? LOL. I'll try again so!

CF: What other faith has gassed schoolgirls?
S: Christians.

Or are you going to say it isn't true?

Rezident

If the women in their societies are oppressed then it's easier for the men, they get all the good jobs etc. Men live pretty sweet lives in muslim societies, they can do what they want, have loads of wives etc.

clairefontaine

seenitall wrote: »

Really?? LOL. I'll try again so!

CF: What other faith has gassed schoolgirls?
S: Christians.

Or are you going to say it isn't true?

They did not do that in the name of Christianity as a mission of Christ, they acted in the name of an extremist political ideology.

It was also Christians who fought that war and won it.

So yes, do try again.

Nodin

Rezident wrote: »

If the women in their societies are oppressed then it's easier for the men, they get all the good jobs etc. Men live pretty sweet lives in muslim societies, they can do what they want, have loads of wives etc.

Only around 3-4% of muslim marriages are polygamous.

southsiderosie

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You and people who thanked you are missing the point.

Still huge difference in the outcomes of what happened there and basically no progression on some of these countries.

There was here thankfully.

I think what people are taking issue with is the air of cultural superiority that some are taking towards Muslims. Cultures go through cycles - do you think that anyone during the Enlightenment in Europe could have envisioned the carnage and barbarity of the Holocaust? We humans, and Westerners in particular, seem to think of social progress as linear: always moving in one direction (usually upwards). But the reality is, culture is malleable, social beliefs change, and civilizations both rise and fall.

Looking at Islam in historical perspective, there were practices in Mohammed's time when it came to property ownership and governance of financial affairs that were far more progressive than those which existed in Ireland only a generation ago: Mohammed's first wife ran multiple business and was a wealthy, well-connected trader. And, as I highlighted with the sati example above, the Mughals were more progressive than Hindus of their time.

Nichololas

suicide_circus wrote: »

Backward arseholes

Woh, that gave me a really weird mental image

seenitall

clairefontaine wrote: »

They did not do that in the name of Christianity as a mission of Christ, they acted in the name of an extremist political ideology.

It was also Christians who fought that war and won it.

So yes, do try again.

Oh now you really are taking the mickey.

I will gladly 'try again' as soon as you tell me what exactly you want me to try again.

In the meantime, back to your question:

What other faiths have gassed schoolgirls?

The answer (Christians) will stay the same as the last time, no matter how many qualifiers you put on that fact in order to justify people of a specific religion commiting atrocities just as merrily as the people of another specific religion.

The_Kew_Tour

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think what people are taking issue with is the air of cultural superiority that some are taking towards Muslims. Cultures go through cycles - do you think that anyone during the Enlightenment in Europe could have envisioned the carnage and barbarity of the Holocaust? We humans, and Westerners in particular, seem to think of social progress as linear: always moving in one direction (usually upwards). But the reality is, culture is malleable, social beliefs change, and civilizations both rise and fall.

Looking at Islam in historical perspective, there were practices in Mohammed's time when it came to property ownership and governance of financial affairs that were far more progressive than those which existed in Ireland only a generation ago: Mohammed's first wife ran multiple business and was a wealthy, well-connected trader. And, as I highlighted with the sati example above, the Mughals were more progressive than Hindus of their time.

But things are getting worse not better. That's just obvious. And that in itself is worrying.

They are becoming more and more extreme.

southsiderosie

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But things are getting worse not better. That's just obvious. And that in itself is worrying.

They are becoming more and more extreme.

I am not denying that is the case in some parts of the world. What I am saying is that this is par for the course in human history: we make advances, and then drag ourselves backwards again. And our barbarity seems worse over time because 1) you'd think we would have learned by now, and 2) technology makes violence terrifyingly easy and efficient.

clairefontaine

seenitall wrote: »

Oh now you really are taking the mickey.

I will gladly 'try again' as soon as you tell me what exactly you want me to try again.

In the meantime, back to your question:

What other faiths have gassed schoolgirls?

The answer (Christians) will stay the same as the last time, no matter how many qualifiers you put on that fact in order to justify people of a specific religion commiting atrocities just as merrily as the people of another specific religion.

You are dragging this off topic by trying to draw parallels with Islam and Nazism.

Nazism was not a religion. It was a political ideology that sought out ethnic cleansing as well as expansionism and gassed lots and lots and lots of people of different genders, races and religions, including Christians [Polish Catholics in specific].

af_thefragile

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think what people are taking issue with is the air of cultural superiority that some are taking towards Muslims. Cultures go through cycles - do you think that anyone during the Enlightenment in Europe could have envisioned the carnage and barbarity of the Holocaust? We humans, and Westerners in particular, seem to think of social progress as linear: always moving in one direction (usually upwards). But the reality is, culture is malleable, social beliefs change, and civilizations both rise and fall.

Looking at Islam in historical perspective, there were practices in Mohammed's time when it came to property ownership and governance of financial affairs that were far more progressive than those which existed in Ireland only a generation ago: Mohammed's first wife ran multiple business and was a wealthy, well-connected trader. And, as I highlighted with the sati example above, the Mughals were more progressive than Hindus of their time.

Progress is all subjective.

Many people in the West see Muslim countries as backwards with their strict laws. Many people in Muslim countries see the West as heading backwards with the breakdown of family and increasing profanity and such.

In general Muslims and Western societies have different and fairly contrasting moral parameters by which they judge a society. We in the West judge muslim societies through the moral parameters we have here (which are mostly the modern Western Liberal secular values) while the Muslims judge the West through their moral parameters (which are based on the Islamic teachings) and hence both see faults in one another.

These differences will result in mass conflict until either the Western view of society or the Muslim view of society will finally win over and prevail. Arnold Toynbee predicted this decades ago.

Hence we either accept the values of "the other" and learn to co-exist in society together respecting each other's differing values. Or we engage in conflict until one value system wins over the other.

This actually explains much of what's going on in the world today.

Curly Judge

Muslims are to Christianity as Travellers are to the middle classes.
About 300 years behind in their cultural and behavioural development!
We cannot scorn too much because we were once like them and hopefully their religion will take a more secular tone in the future.
What we need is a Muslim Thomas Jefferson.
We also should concentrate on the women in Muslin and Traveller society.
They are the key to progress!

clairefontaine

southsiderosie wrote: »

I am not denying that is the case in some parts of the world. What I am saying is that this is par for the course in human history: we make advances, and then drag ourselves backwards again. And our barbarity seems worse over time because 1) you'd think we would have learned by now, and 2) technology makes violence terrifyingly easy and efficient.

What disturbs me about it is that it's getting more and more random with the reasons becoming more and more tenuous.

From internet beheadings to random men in movie theatres to Adam Lanza, we are getting or have gotten to the "just because I feel like it" stage.

ANd this recent news is no fun either...
http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/world/boko-haram.htm

Grayson

clairefontaine wrote: »

What disturbs me about it is that it's getting more and more random with the reasons becoming more and more tenuous.

From internet beheadings to random men in movie theatres to Adam Lanza, we are getting or have gotten to the "just because I feel like it" stage.

ANd this recent news is no fun either...
http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/world/boko-haram.htm

To be fair, it's been happening for centuries. It just wasn't tweeted.

seenitall

clairefontaine wrote: »

You are dragging this off topic by trying to draw parallels with Islam and Nazism.

Nazism was not a religion. It was a political ideology that sought out ethnic cleansing as well as expansionism and gassed lots and lots and lots of people of different genders, races and religions, including Christians [Polish Catholics in specific].

I'm not dragging anything off topic nor am I drawing any parallels. (But I could start any minute now! )

All I did was answer one of your own questions, and answered it accurately, for which I was rewarded with "no, you haven't, you answered the one that was in your head".

Your question did not go into any specifics of whys and wherefores of atrocities, it concentrated specifically on the fact that people of a certain religion commited a despicable crime. I answered it without elaborating, but I will happily elaborate now; Islam is certainly not the only religion whose adherents are capable of commiting despicable crimes.

Why does it matter so much to you that the excuse for one horrible crime was religious/cultural, and the excuse for the other set of horrible crimes was ideological? Crime is crime, whatever the excuse for it; the religion is ideology as well, and as an ideology it certainly didn't stop people killing others, whether in Europe, Asia or Africa, 70 or 500 or 1000 years ago. On the contrary; it facilitated, aided and gave killers its blessing on many, many occasions; that's why I find your question puzzling and slightly unsettling.

Do you believe that Islam is the only religion whose adherents commit atrocities in the name of religion/cultural values/what have you? It is most patently not. (Apologies if I took you up wrong, it's just that those questions you asked seem very 'weighted'.)

EDIT: I never mentioned Nazism, so your point that Nazism isn't a religion is neither here nor there. I said that people gassing some other schoolgirls in the past were Christians. Which they were.

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

For starters
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84272106&postcount=3352

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21840600

From what I understand of Buddhism, those individuals are acting in absolute contradiction to Buddhist values of pacifism, as practiced by (among others) the Dali Lama, exile of Tibet.

Unfortunately pacifism often backfires, as it has done for the Tibetan Buddhists in occupied Tibet, as the Chinese policy there is much like that of the British Empire in Ireland during the era of the Planters.

seenitall wrote: »

Do you believe that Islam is the only religion whose adherents commit atrocities in the name of religion/cultural values/what have you? It is most patently not.

Perhaps, but radical Islam has to be one of the most egregious. And the silence from Leftists on it is deafening.

seenitall

SeanW wrote: »

From what I understand of Buddhism, those individuals are acting in absolute contradiction to Buddhist values of pacifism, as practiced by (among others) the Dali Lama, exile of Tibet.

Unfortunately pacifism often backfires, as it has done for the Tibetan Buddhists in occupied Tibet, as the Chinese policy there is much like that of the British Empire in Ireland during the era of the Planters.

As I'm sure lots of Muslims will tell us that child murderers or rapists etc. from among their ranks, are acting in absolute contradiction to Kuran.

Muscles From Brussels

You're making a crazy issue a gender issue. They do plenty of fucked up shit that isn't gender related, so a better label is crazy rather than women hating (and fear is a pretty absurd proposition).

SeanW

seenitall wrote: »

As I'm sure lots of Muslims will tell us that child murderers or rapists etc. from among their ranks, are acting in absolute contradiction to Kuran.

There's no maybe about it: the people in Nodin's post have totally and utterly abandoned the core principles of Buddhism.

Can you say the same about Muslims who blew up those 5,000 year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan, practice arranged marriages, genitally mutilate their daughters, persecute homosexuals, threaten/kill/jail blashphemers or insist on torturing animals to death without stunning to make Halal meat? I don't think so.

seenitall

SeanW wrote: »

There's no maybe about it: the people in Nodin's post have totally and utterly abandoned the core principles of Buddhism.

Can you say the same about Muslims who blew up those 5,000 year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan, practice arranged marriages, genitally mutilate their daughters, persecute homosexuals, threaten/kill/jail blashphemers or insist on torturing animals to death without stunning to make Halal meat? I don't think so.

I don't know Sean, I'm not a Kuran scholar or, indeed, a Muslim. Are you?

What I know is, I've heard/read many times, including from Muslims on boards, that some of the kind of crimes you mention are not condoned in their holy book or the way they believe Allah wants them to conduct themselves. Who to trust? :pac:

I know some European Muslims, I can tell you there is no blowing up things, no arranged marriages, no genital mutilation and no threatening blasphemers. (Not sure about Halal though.) I really think they would have mentioned at least some of these things to me if they were crucial to their faith.

As for gay persecution, I haven't heard that kind of talk from Muslims I know, but I have from my two Christian friends funnily enough, and plenty of it. Homosexuals have a difficult enough time in Europe within the dominant faith(s), I doubt it is yet time for them to start worrying about Muslims.

af_thefragile

SeanW wrote: »

There's no maybe about it: the people in Nodin's post have totally and utterly abandoned the core principles of Buddhism.

Can you say the same about Muslims who blew up those 5,000 year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan, practice arranged marriages, genitally mutilate their daughters, persecute homosexuals, threaten/kill/jail blashphemers or insist on torturing animals to death without stunning to make Halal meat? I don't think so.

Nice to judge 3 billion people based on the actions of a few hundred extremists...

I think you'll find most muslims don't all of that.
Afghanistan has been under Muslim rule for centuries and no one did anything to the Buddha statues until a few extremists decided to blow it up. Iran which has been under Muslim rule for the past 1400 years or so has preserved Presepolis and never felt the need to blow it up. Similarly Egypt which as been under Muslim rule for 1400yrs has preserved the Pyramids. What the Taliban folks did in Afghanistan has nothing to do with Islam.

Some may argue nothing wrong with practicing arrange marriages. Most people in the world in most societies practice or practiced arrange marriages. Even in the West arrange marriages were fairly common up until a few decades ago. Also forced marriages =/= Arranged marriage. If you did some proper research you'll find forced marriage are not allowed in Islam.

Persecute homosexuals. Most societies persecuted homosexuals up until a few decades ago. You'll find examples of homosexuals being persecuted in every society so no need to single out muslims here.

Threaten/kill/jail blasphemers. Most countries have or had some form of anti-blasphemy law. The actual instances where someone who's blasphemed being persecuted by a government authority is fairly rare. Its mostly some extremists taking extreme offense and acting upon it.

Slaughtering animals was the way how people killed animals throughout centuries up until recently when people started to use electricity to stun the animal. And if you wanna talk about humane treatment of animals then you better stop eating any McDonalds, KFC and meat from most supermarkets which is produced on an industrial scale.

hatrickpatrick

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But things are getting worse not better. That's just obvious. And that in itself is worrying.

They are becoming more and more extreme.

This again is something I've never puzzled about, not sure if it's because the reason seems obvious to me or if I'm just wrong about it - their way of life, or more specifically their way of treating people, is under threat. All over the world, even in places formerly the province of extremists, social liberalization is the mainstream. Look at the Arab Spring - lots of young people who are alienated and fed up with living without freedom rising up and attempting to overthrow the oppressive regimes which have shackled them. Ok, so let's admit that it hasn't been all that successful in many cases, but the fact that it has been so huge at all has almost certainly terrified the sh!te out of the extremists.

It's a bit like the march towards gay marriage. Homophobes become more and more angry and vitriolic, the more they see that in the long run they're not going to win. Desperation breeds further extremism - is it not an established fact that as social liberalisation occurs, those already on the right move further and further to the right as a sort of unconscious protest against it?

Shenshen

clairefontaine wrote: »

They did not do that in the name of Christianity as a mission of Christ, they acted in the name of an extremist political ideology.

It was also Christians who fought that war and won it.

So yes, do try again.

So now it's not "what other faith" any more, it's what other people of faith have done such things in the name of faith?

Keep on moving those goalposts until you like the answer.

tara73

it's not very complicated and it has nothing to do with religion in general. religion is only used to have a theoretical justification to suppress women.

it's about men retaining power over women. the whole worldsystem is based on patriarchism, from europe to america to asia and all other parts of the world, except some obviously very rare tribes practising still matriarchism.


many muslim countries are 'just' very extreme in it.
men fear women because women have many qualities and advantages to men, they know that, so it seems necessary for them to oppress women as best as the civilisation/religion they live in allows it.

regarding your example OP, the less educated the women are, the better. the less they will try or be able to become a real counterpart and therefore a threat to the power of the men.

bb1234567

suicide_circus wrote: »

*groan* Give it a rest will ye? Or rather, give her a rest.

Just makes you think, like I cant imagine she ever thought her death would have such a profound effect on society and peoples views on abortion across the world. I dont know, just weird to think about for me, just normal people changing the world y'know.

Carry

Why do extremist Muslims Christians/religious fanatics hate/fear women so much?

Witch burning anyone? Or Magdalene Laundries?

Did anyone notice that all organized religions, and I include the oh so peaceful Buddhists here - not only the monotheistic, patriarchic religions - are fearful of women and interpret their so-called spirituality as male-dominated?

Well?

Madam_X

Carry wrote: »

Witch burning anyone? Or Magdalene Laundries?

Did anyone notice that all organized religions, and I include the oh so peaceful Buddhists here - not only the monotheistic, patriarchic religions - are fearful of women and interpret their so-called spirituality as male-dominated?

Well?

Yeh it's been covered. The focus is on today though.

lower_league

Curly Judge wrote: »

Muslims are to Christianity as Travellers are to the middle classes.
About 300 years behind in their cultural and behavioural development!
We cannot scorn too much because we were once like them and hopefully their religion will take a more secular tone in the future.
What we need is a Muslim Thomas Jefferson.
We also should concentrate on the women in Muslin and Traveller society.
They are the key to progress!

the only thing muslims and travellers have in common is that they both feature on the " sacred cow list " of the liberal left

at all times , allowances must be made for both , regardless of the circumstances

coffee_cake

Yes, even the peaceful buddhists can be awfully sexist, which is quite frustrating
Tenzin palmo has encountered it a lot
http://spiritualityhealth.com/articles/there-still-glass-ceiling-enlightenment