Why do extremist Muslims hate/fear women so much?

Chronic Button

jackal wrote: »

Thanks for the wall of text there. Now let me just refer you to the title where it says "Extremist Muslims" and not typical Muslims.

That was so informative and constructive; cheers. I, dumbass, bow to your genius.

wretcheddomain

What annoys me is that if discrimination is allowed to continue for 2,000 years it becomes a cultural value.

Solair

I don't get it either. There has been an anti-women trend across all sorts of societies and religions. The Islamic extremists version of it is just a particularly scary and extreme version.

I've always had a sense that it was about "divide and conquer". Those in power bully people into submission by creating social divisions around class, gender, ethnicity and religion. There's always some group that they're out to persecute and oppress.

The last thing they'd want is an integrated functioning society based around equality that might suddenly tell them to get stuffed, or even violently remove them from power as happened to various oppressive regimes over the years.

Power gets allocated in dribs and drabs to an anointed few who get to keep it by demonstrating extreme loyalty. That's how dictatorships and all sorts maintain control.

Even the British system worked that way. You knighted the people you wanted to keep on side. Gave them a little status, bit of land in return for undying loyalty to the monarch.

I think extremist Islamic systems pretty much do that. The 'man of the house' is granted special powers but in return has to be deeply loyal to the belief system.

It will take men in those extremist societies to show some loyalty to their sisters, wives & mothers and stand up along side them before there's any change.

Women won't be able to crack that system without them because they're on the outside of it.

Education and socialisation is the only way in.

I bet the men there are discouraged from even speaking to women so think they're some kind of alien species too.

Our own school system on a much less dramatic level does a similar disservice to both genders by separating them. So you get both women and men in Ireland who have weird views of the opposite sex that often don't get addressed until college.

General General

Grayson wrote: »

You sir, are a troll.

Eh.

Grayson wrote: »

Rather than actually counter anything i said, you respond with comments about your transsexual relatives.

Even if I had a transsexual relative, big deal. I think I countered well enough, I just cannot take your points or argument as seriously as you would like perhaps.

Grayson wrote: »

BTW, my point about casts is that everywhere in the world there are people who treat others like scum. there were/are Christians in the Us who treat blacks like dirt. there are arabs too. there are Hindus that treat each other like dirt (and members of other religions too since a lot of the original converts to islam and christianity were Hindus of lower castes who were trying to escape the caste system. Hindus therefore traditionally look down on other religions). Everyone treats everyone like crap. It is not a muslim phenomenon.

& you attempted to make this point by telling us that:

Grayson wrote: »

It should also be remembered that Hindus also have a caste system. If you think they're soooo much better than Muslims or Christians, you should look up the word Dalit.

I merely responded that Muslims aren't free from caste-like behavior that you set up as something we should not forget about Hindus - which you've now clarified you understand too...

Grayson wrote: »

btw, do you actually know anything about the separate court system? They have it in canada because it works quite well. It's used in civil cases like divorce etc... This is because it's a requirement of the religion and it's not incompatible with western legal systems. In the case of divorce for example, it provides an equitable solution for both parties.

I know a little, enough to know that even within the Muslim community, there are views opposed to it.

I'd personally object to it in any state where I am a citizen, unless I could have my own parallel court that would suit my personal fantasy of what things are like.

imtdub

General General wrote: »

India has no oil.

Hindus don't talk about the restoration of the Hindu world empire, demand parallel courts, blow up people in western Europe & north America... nor do they tell us what we can & cannot say... or burn in hell for not being one of them.

General General wrote: »

I think you need to brush-up on the context of my post.

Hindu empire in India plans is less likely to grab my attention, being Irish & living in Ireland & all.

Well if You're Irish and Living in Ireland and all, why did you refer about world in the Original post, should stick to your Irishness



[QUOTE It isn't a competition. [/QUOTE]

sure not a competition but bringing to your attention that there are many people like them



[QUOTE Not as much.. however, many of us are living in 2013. [/QUOTE]

you may be living in 2013, but history has a big role in what's happening in Present.


[QUOTE No. Nor did I see any outrage about countless other horrors that occurred over the years.

I should emphasize that I think many, perhaps all, NATO air strikes are wicked & deplorable. [/QUOTE]

well I applaud you for that



[QUOTE I try to... does it not show? ...or do you mean that I should think as you do before I write? [/QUOTE]

Is that the best you could write after all the thinking..

General General

imtdub wrote: »

Well if You're Irish and Living in Ireland and all, why did you refer about world in the Original post, should stick to your Irishness

I do know not very many, but I do the best what I are.

Solair

FTA69 wrote: »

Up until the 1970s a woman working in the civil service had to quit her job if she got married. Similarly a woman also couldn't sign a contract. The mother and child health scheme failed after direct intervention from the church hierarchy....

To suggest that official Catholicism didn't have a negative effect on women is "lols worthy."

The mother and child scheme was a threat to their grip on power in health & social services.

There was a constant tendency so start shouting about 'communism' when anyone tried to do anything in those areas in Ireland right into the 1970s

We are probably still suffering the consequences as the Mother & Child Scheme would have formed the first steps towards an Irish NHS. Instead we stumbled along with a mess of "voluntary hospitals" most of which are religious owned and all of which suffer from lack of accountability.

They wanted the state to give them a large blank cheque and let then decide how to best spend it and ask no questions as The Bishop or Mother Superior knew best.

So basically you can lay the blame for the HSE's expensive quagmire at the foot of weak politicians and religious interference too!

If there is one thing establishment power hierarchies hate its people organising themselves in their own interests.

FTA69

Oh I'm not trying to lay the blame for the failure of that scheme solely at the feet of the Church. The political gombeen class that took over after independence also facilitated their complete dominance in state institutions as well as, truth be told, a society that largely tolerated it.

desertcircus

General General wrote: »

India has no oil.

Hindus don't talk about the restoration of the Hindu world empire, demand parallel courts, blow up people in western Europe & north America... nor do they tell us what we can & cannot say... or burn in hell for not being one of them.

Eh.

Actually, a significant element of Hinduism does most if not all of that. The fact that you focus on Islam because it's more visible here is a commentary on media attention rather than on Islam. Depressingly, Islam isn't especially unique in terms of its treatment of women.

simply simple

what I see is it lasted longer with its extremes in muslim sect than it did in other sects and countries and with lack of further development it is getting worse. Its a cultural issue here in our world while it is a religious issue for muslims.

ScumLord

I don't think it's a Muslim thing, it's a human thing. The only difference between us and those Muslims is programming. We're not all that different from the people that were around 2000 years ago that believe people could be property.

I think no matter what your religion if society broke down and went medieval any one of us could easily become the type of people that would keep slaves or treat anyone we can hold power as property.

jackal

Chronic Button wrote: »

That was so informative and constructive; cheers. I, dumbass, bow to your genius.

No problem, just think before you post next time.

up for anything

I thought that the reason women were feared down through the years was because of male pride, property and succession rights.

In the days before DNA only a woman could truly know who the father of her child was and therefore men could only keep a grip on the things that truly mattered such as inheritances by ensuring that their women were subjugated and faithful. Chasity belts while they were away at the crusades, harems to keep them locked up in, Victorian papas wielding a club of covered up piano legs. Surely all of this was to make sure that a man's son was actually his own flesh and blood and to make sure the line of inheritance was not diluted by the results of out of wedlock action. Across the centuries the men in most cultures were scared of women of education and independent means. If women were kept uneducated and dependent it mean that they were easily controllable. If a woman was getting above herself it was easy to accuse her of, and convince others that she was involved in witchcraft or heresy. Even in the most ancient religions where women were allowed to become 'powerful' priestesses they were generally in 'orders' where they were either locked away and stayed virgins, or their bodies could be bought for an hour by any man with a few bob to honour the Gods.

Same story with genital mutilation - make sure that they can't enjoy sex and then they definitely won't stray. I don't know any woman that during a bout of Thrush would head out looking for sex and FGM must be a 1,000 times worse.

af_thefragile

Some people are sick and twisted in their head.
Throw in cultural practices and group think phenomenon and you get mass madness.

But often in these cases there is a lot more going on that what news media reports. News media depends on shocking and sensational stories to attract an audience. Often in these situation there is little way of knowing what's the real story and we end up simply taking the news story for word of what went on without any proper explanation towards the why.

Hence why I'm always very skeptical when I come across such stories in the news. I would wish to rather hear a first hand, unbiased and uninfluenced account from the people living in these areas regarding what's actually going on. The only way we can understand what's causing people to do such things is by understanding the situation of the area and their reasoning for their actions without any judgement or prejudice. Only then can you begin to finally see what causes people to do the things they do and more often than not the reasons aren't what they seem to be.

People aren't simple animals. Even animals are complex beings and humans are the most complex of them all. The simplest explanation isn't always the right explanation of people's actions. It is easy to blame Islam for the actions of people who claim to follow its teachings but doing so is simplistic and judgmental. Around 3 billion people around the world follow the teachings of Islam yet the vast majority of them are just people living their lives like you and me hence if Islam was to blame for such actions, there would be much bigger issues facing the world. Although it appears so that some people like to promote such a picture.

Most of these incidents take place in areas of extreme turmoil and instability. Afghanistan has been warn torn since the 80s and when there wasn't war there was drug trade. There is extreme poverty and extremely poor infrastructure. The USA created Al-Qaeda with an agenda to create a faction that would attract certain type of people to fight off the Soviets in a holy war. After the Soviets were defeated, the region has continued to attract people of a certain mentality and agenda. This has only been complicated by the current war going on there. Now many many people there see USA as the enemy which is trying to invade and take over their land. Among these are people who're fighting for their land, there are people who're fighting for personal reasons and there are people who believe they're fighting a holy war. At such times foreign interventions, especially educational institutions, are seen as indoctrination centers rather than places of knowledge and development. This has happened throughout history and is nothing new to Afghanistan.
The Nazis burnt and banned tons of books which were a threat to the ideology of their nation. The Soviets banned and prosecuted many writers who didn't conform to their communist ideology. Even the Americans in the 50s prosecuted many people whom they believed held communist ideologies which could be a threat to their nation. During the Vietnam War the VietCong committed similar acts as those in Afghanistan. They were not monsters. They were men who had families and lives just like anyone else. But they were at war and anything American, despite being a good and beneficial thing, was dangerous and had to be retaliated against. Wars aren't just about land and money, they're about ideologies. The Afghan people see the change the Western nations are trying to bring in their countries as a form of attack by their invaders on their way of life and what they believe in and thus this needs to be retaliated.

And this goes both ways. In Afghanistan anything American or Western is seen as evil and an attack on their idology. In America and many parts of the Western world, anything Islamic is seen as evil and antagonistic to the American or Western way of life. Its simply a byproduct of the ongoing war. Before it was the Communists, now its the Islamists! The only difference is that the USA is sheltered from the physical war its waging on these nations, hence you don't see such extreme acts taking place in USA although many small acts do take place. The severity and horrific nature of the acts are simply proportional to the state of the stage where the acts are committed. The stage in Afghanistan is pretty poor, hence people behave in a more extreme way there. In USA things are much better and people are much more comfortable thus there are only random isolated acts of violence, small protests and occasional terrorist acts like the Boston bomb.

But the news won't tell you all this because its too complicated and doesn't make for good ratings. A simple "Extremist muslims poison innocent schoolgirls!!!" makes for much more compelling viewing for the dumb masses.

Noreen1

Shenshen wrote: »

As far as I know, the requirement to cover women in bin bags isn't found in explicit detail in the Koran either.

And the bible does provide plenty of quotes that can be used to target people of differing beliefs.

I've no idea what's in the Koran, tbh, because I haven't read it.

However, to blame the political situation in the North solely on Religion, as opposed to power, wealth, culture, etc. is disingenuous, to say the least.
It's also off-topic, so a subject for another day!

Shenshen

Noreen1 wrote: »

I've no idea what's in the Koran, tbh, because I haven't read it.

However, to blame the political situation in the North solely on Religion, as opposed to power, wealth, culture, etc. is disingenuous, to say the least.
It's also off-topic, so a subject for another day!

Do you honestly think religious extremism is not about power and politics? Do you really think it makes even the slightest difference which religion exactly is being used to control, subjugate and dominate?

Noreen1

Shenshen wrote: »

Do you honestly think religious extremism is not about power and politics? Do you really think it makes even the slightest difference which religion exactly is being used to control, subjugate and dominate?

No. I think the lust for power which often becomes a political issue, is about greed.
And, greed, sadly, is a condition that affects people of all religions - and none.

Where people are willing to control, subjugate, or dominate, other people - that, to me indicates a total lack of respect for the rights of others, and, often, a failure to recognise the humanity of the victims.
So, the issue, to me, is lack of respect, often accompanied by weakness of character/inferiority complex/fear, on the part of the perpetrator.
Of course, bullies can never admit that they are weak, or scared - so Religion is as good an excuse as any other.

clairefontaine

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why do extremists of every faith hate/fear women so much?

What other faiths have extremists on par with Muslim extremists?

What other faiths have gassed school girls?

seenitall

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other faiths have gassed school girls?

^^ Eh, really?

(Cos I can think of at least one people of other faith that gassed people in fairly recent history, pretty easily.)

hatrickpatrick

Seems pretty simple to me, these guys want "traditional" (read: house servant) wives and realise that if they're allowed to get an education, they might aspire to something more than just cooking and cleaning?

Nodin

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other faiths have extremists on par with Muslim extremists?

What other faiths have gassed school girls?

For starters
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84272106&postcount=3352

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21840600

clairefontaine

seenitall wrote: »

^^ Eh, really?

(Cos I can think of at least one people of other faith that gassed people in fairly recent history, pretty easily.)

Not exclusively girls and it wasn't a religion.

seenitall

clairefontaine wrote: »

Not exclusively girls and it wasn't a religion.

Not exclusively girls, but girls as well. You asked, I answered.

What wasn't a religion? They were very religious people, you can look it up.

(Trying sooooo hard to avoid Godwinning here!! :P)

clairefontaine

seenitall wrote: »

Not exclusively girls, but girls as well. You asked, I answered.

What wasn't a religion? They were very religious people, you can look it up.

(Trying sooooo hard to avoid Godwinning here!! :P)

My question was what other faith has gassed school girls. People answered another question, one I didn't ask.

Nodin

clairefontaine wrote: »

My question was what other faith has gassed school girls. People answered another question, one I didn't ask.

You asked two questions. I answered the first.

imtdub

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other faiths have extremists on par with Muslim extremists?

What other faiths have gassed school girls?

This is not faith, according to Islamic Faith acquiring Knowledge is a must

"Seeking knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim
man and woman" as per Holy Prophet


These are the first verses revealed in the Holy Koran.

"Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not" [Quran, 96: 1-5]


So what's happening in Afghanistan is not faith...

seenitall

clairefontaine wrote: »

My question was what other faith has gassed school girls. People answered another question, one I didn't ask.

I answered the very question you asked, you just don't like the answer. There were people in Europe about 70 years ago that gassed people left, right and centre, including school girls. They weren't Muslims either, thereby qualifying for your "other faith" condition. (A clue: they were Christian.)

The_Kew_Tour

CommanderC wrote: »

Magdelene Laundries.

You and people who thanked you are missing the point.

Still huge difference in the outcomes of what happened there and basically no progression on some of these countries.

There was here thankfully.

clairefontaine

seenitall wrote: »

I answered the very question you asked, you just don't like the answer. There were people in Europe about 70 years ago that gassed people left, right and centre, including school girls. They weren't Muslims either, thereby qualifying for your "other faith" condition. (A clue: they were Christian.)

No you didn't. You answered one you imagined. And not very well either.

southsiderosie

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other faiths have extremists on par with Muslim extremists?

What other faiths have gassed school girls?

In Hindu communities, where girls in traditional, rural communities were (and are) married off quite young, there is a long history of sati: widows 'throwing themselves' on their husband's funeral pyres (they were often thrown by their in-laws). In pre-colonial times, some Hindu kingdoms tried to regulate the practice and ban it completely for children. Interestingly, the (Muslim) Mughal regime tried to ban it entirely. Unfortunately, despite criminalization, this still happens in parts of India today, although thankfully it is quite rare.