The sex myth

B0jangles

bodice ripper wrote: »

I didn't say anything like that. I am not rewording to rebut what you imagined I said.

I took your sentence

"Maybe we should stop raising little girls to see themselves as being on the recieving end of sex, that it is something to bestowed like a gift to just the right person, that your virginity is taken from you and that male sexuality is something to be feared."

to suggest that incidents of date rape occur when women have sex they don't remember at all and feel ashamed and guilty and so they cry rape. Ergo if women did not have a feeling of guilt and shame after having casual sex, they wouldn't be claiming to have been raped.

Am I completely misreading you?

tritium

B0jangles wrote: »

I took your sentence

"Maybe we should stop raising little girls to see themselves as being on the recieving end of sex, that it is something to bestowed like a gift to just the right person, that your virginity is taken from you and that male sexuality is something to be feared."

to suggest that incidents of date rape occur when women have sex they don't remember at all and feel ashamed and guilty and so they cry rape. Ergo if women did not have a feeling of guilt and shame after having casual sex, they wouldn't be claiming to have been raped.

Am I completely misreading you?

And again! Misrepresent, spin, twist, reinterpret, hell why don't you just make up some quotes since it a much more succinct way to attack a poster. Really, is it so difficult to read, discuss, debate? Does there always have to be something to get bitter or outraged about?

B0jangles

tritium wrote: »

And again! Misrepresent, spin, twist, reinterpret, he'll why don't you just make up some quotes since it a much more succinct way to attack a poster. Really, is it so difficult to read, discuss, debate? Does there always have to be something to get bitter or outraged about?

I am genuinely trying to clarify what the poster means, I am neither bitter nor outraged.

I just don't see how changing how women view sexual relationships will do anything to reduce the incidence of rape, that's all.

eviltwin

bodice ripper wrote: »

Also, maybe we could all stop telling rape victims how their lives are ruined. Maybe their lives won't be ruined then...

Who says that? Seriously I have never heard anyone tell a rape victim their life is ruined.

Madam_X

bodice ripper wrote: »

I don't know any men who have told me that they were date raped

I do.

Grayson

eviltwin wrote: »

Who says that? Seriously I have never heard anyone tell a rape victim their life is ruined.

Look up any rape thread and you will see plenty of people saying the womans life is ruined. maybe you've never seen anyone say it to someones face.

B0jangles

Madam_X wrote: »

I do.

Me too.

tritium

B0jangles wrote: »

Me too.

I've known a couple too

LittleFox

I've felt quite uncomfortable reading this thread with some of the attitudes being exhibited towards sexual assualt. I have a very large chest and have had men grope me on a night out, while standing at the bar, or walking by try put their hand down my top. When I was younger (15) walking down a busy street in town I had a man walk up to me and squeeze my chest. I have had the attitude thrown at me that ah sure it was only a laugh, only a bit of fun what are you upset over, learn to take a joke, just because I was not raped does not mean i was not sexually assaulted.Sexual assault does not mean rape, it includes rape.
For one person having your ass pinched or chest groped or having someone drop a hand is no big deal to them, to others it is and I dont think anyone has the right to trivialize how someone feels just because it is different to their own views of how they would feel in that situation.

getzls

smash wrote: »

Is the .3 a ****?

Sex is O.K. but it's not as good as the real thing.

Rosy Posy

I'm probably waaaay behind in the thread now, but I wanted to address the issues that Czarcasm raised in his post.

Czarcasm wrote: »

SEX is used as a marketing tool, by advertisers. Marketing is all about making your product attractive, and it's been proven time and again that sex sells, hence why you get images of David Beckham on a 20ft billboard in nothing but his CK tighty whiteys. Now go into Easons and alongside the Playboy and Hustler, etc, are magazines like GAY and Attitude, Men's Health, Muscle and Fitness, the list goes on!

Fwiw, these magazines are also aimed at men. I have no problem with men subverting the tools of popular culture to further their own agenda.

Czarcasm wrote: »

So that's a whole shedload of other problems you have to address before you eventually get around to addressing the actual issue of your perception of people's attitudes towards sexual assault and rape. You have invariably created for yourself there a chicken and egg situation having to solve all the rest of society's issues before you can solve the one you originally set out to solve.

And this is one of those problems. I don't believe that we have to live in a utopian society without social problems before we can address an issue of cultural attitudes towards sexuality and sexual violence. I recognise that many factors go into creating a rapist, many of which cannot be addressed, but by looking at changing attitudes towards rape victims and rapists in our communities we can go about tackling just one of those factors. I also think that a society that was less sceptical and quick to blame victims of sexual assault would make it easier for these victims to come forward and to shed the shame of their experience and to heal.

Czarcasm wrote: »

See here's where you create yet another chicken and egg situation. Further down this post you say that sexual assault and rape are about power, and not sex, yet in the above paragraph you claim that how society views sex is important in reducing incidence of rape and sexual assault. So, it's either about sex, or it isn't?

What I actually said was

Rosy Posy wrote: »

At its most basic level rape is a crime of power, not just sexuality.

. Obviously there is a sexual element but when the level of respect for anothers sexuality is diminished so extremely by exposure to sexist imagery and attitudes then that leads some to exert their power and commit rape.

Czarcasm wrote: »

The consequences of rape for the perpetrator will never equate to the lifetime of suffering inflicted upon their victim (I'm sure you meant to use the word "survivor" above), so any penal measures you introduce will do nothing to deter a person from rape, they'll just try not to get caught is all, so no change there then.

I believe that if we had a stronger culture of reporting rapes and if these reports were taken seriously resulting in penal measures then many 'opportunisitic rapists' would be deterred. As it stands I don't know a single person who has reported a rape, most people are overcome by shame, fear the judgement of society and know the abysmal chance they have of getting justice in our current system.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I did say for SOME it IS indeed patronising, and for the very reason you put forward yourself above. It's akin to sweeping what happened under the carpet and being told "ah sure, it happened, but you survived, now you need to get on with your life". I mean, if that perspective works for you that's great, but for some individuals, the term "survivor" IS patronising, because it's a carry over from the American "positive attitude to failure" philosophy, and it's not a term I would use when talking to victims of sexual assault or rape as it glosses over the issue instead of actually acknowledging and helping them to understand what's happened to them and give them the individual tools to help them cope with what's happened to them, allowing them to work through the issues at their own pace and learning to live with what's happened to them, rather than kicking them into survival mode, because if they're only surviving, that means they're not living.

I would never use the term 'rape survivor' to someone who had not already worked through the trauma of being raped. I'm not against the term victim per se, but now that I have come to terms with my experiences of rape, when I identify myself as a person who has gone through that process, I, and many other women in my position, prefer the term 'survivor' as it allows us to acknowledge that it happened but not to afford the perpetrator any more power, but rather to focus on our own empowered role in moving past it.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because war is about inflicting as much damage and humiliation on your enemy as possible, and what better way to do that than to humiliate them in every way humanly possible, including rape, and including urinating on their dead bodies. Why just stop at overpowering your enemy when you can completely and totally humiliate and denigrate them, making them actually feel what it is to be less than human

That sounds a lot like an exertion of power to me.

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's no anti feminist backlash going on here I can assure you, more a personality clash I would think given our vastly different perspectives and approaches to the subject of rape and sexual assault. If you were to press me on it however, I couldn't give a fiddlers about feminism; pro, anti or otherwise, as I view all human beings equally, I don't see any need for a "power struggle" approach as to me the word "power" implies not just being equal to, but being able to display that you are better than your counterpart. That's not an philosophy that will ever sit well with me

You see no reason for a power struggle because, I'd hazard a guess that you are a straight, white, middle class male. You were born into power and take it as a given. Those that are not so fortunate have to struggle to claw back some, to effect a semblance of equality.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I need my head checked so, otherwise you need to define your perspective on power and what it is to be powerful. I could name many business leaders off the top of my head who are female, I could tell you that in the sex industry more women earn more than men, I could say the same about the fashion industry, but that would be a whole other thread

Girls significantly outperform boys academically, however, men are more likely to be employed, and have full time employment, women do more unpaid work, and earn less than men. Women only occupy 10% of board seats, are far less likely to own their own business, and only count for 25% of parliamentary representatives.

http://www.oecd.org/gender/closingthegap.htm#Key

from Oxfam

You’re more likely to be poor if you are a woman. That’s a fact.

Of the 1.3 billion people living in extreme poverty worldwide, more than two-thirds are women and girls.

Campaigning for gender equality is an important part of Oxfam's work, and putting an end to discrimination and unfair treatment is key to eliminating global poverty and injustice.

Here's why:

Women make up 75% of the world's work force
Women work two-thirds of the world’s working hours
Women produce the majority of the world’s food
Women earn only 10% of the world’s income
Women own less than 1% of the world’s property

As far as women earning more in the sex industry...should I encourage my daughter to become a prostitute as this is the one industry that she can expect to surpass her male counterpart? The fashion industry is no better than any other as far as gender equality goes. Sure male models earn an average lower wage than female models, but the bulk of designers are men

Taking statistics from the New York Times, the Council of Fashion Designers of America claims that 121 women and 156 men make up its council, and the encyclopedia of ‘Clothing and Fashion’ held entries of thirty-six female and sixty-nine male designers

as are the executives who run the companies.

67 executives in the sector made more than $5 million last year—taking into account stock options. Unfortunately the gender gap in executive compensation is alive and well within the industry—only six women made the list.

This is all before we take into account the culturally transmitted power discrepancy between the sexes. To deny gender inequality is to be a part of the anti-feminist backlash.

Czarcasm wrote: »

that would take no account of the fact that you're forgetting about the victims of female on male rape and sexual assault, and male on male rape and sexual assault. Actually where DO male victims of rape and sexual assault figure in your idea of "rape culture", or are you only concerned with women? I would be personally concerned for ALL victims of sexual assault and rape, just in case you were wondering.

What about the menz?... I have repeatedly addressed the issue of male rape by a male or female perpetrator and tried to take a gender balanced approach in my posts

Rosy Posy wrote: »

For all those 'what about the menz' this equally applies to a male victim which I believe to be even more underreported.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I do think that a drunk/unconscious male can be raped by a man or a woman and my heart goes out to these men for the difficulty in speaking out without shame and social stigma.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Yes. It's about a culture where there is a lack of respect for personal boundaries. I find that that ladette culture of 'if you can't beat them join them' deplorable. It has done nothing for the feminist cause, or the humanist cause for that matter.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

we should be looking deeper to try and solve the social problems that lead people to rape.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

it's something that many men and women, not just rapists, contribute to by their way of thinking, speaking and acting.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Everything I say I draw from my own experiences and those of the people who have experienced rape and sexual assault, this isn't just stuff I picked up in a book, and for me it isn't an academic debate, it's something I'm incredibly passionate about, so please don't mistake passion and assertiveness for a condescending and patronising attitude. I just happen to disagree with your perspective and your approach is all, it's nothing against you personally.

I'm only here to discuss the issues involved in sexual assault and rape, not here to have a discussion on feminism.

It does come across as condescending I'm afraid, and I get that you are obviously passionate about supporting people through their experiences, and I applaud that, I'm just somewhat at a loss as to how you can do this without supporting some kind of feminist position. Not a bra burning fcuk the men feminism, but one of basic equality.

Sofiztikated

While I have no desire to get involved in the roundabout argument, I am disheartened to see that when someone mentions rapist, everyone automatically assumes that it's a man.

Rosy Posy

Sofiztikated wrote: »

While I have no desire to get involved in the roundabout argument, I am disheartened to see that when someone mentions rapist, everyone automatically assumes that it's a man.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I do think that a drunk/unconscious male can be raped by a man or a woman and my heart goes out to these men for the difficulty in speaking out without shame and social stigma.

What about the menz?:rolleyes:

The "What About the Mens?" Fallacy
In any discussion focusing on women's2 issues, the probability that someone will come around and say "men are [fill the blank], too!"3 approaches 1 the longer the discussion gets.

Can be used with marlo's corollary:
If someone posts something containing or alluding to the word "rape" somewhere on the internet, THERE WILL BE ****.

2 May be applied to any disadvantaged group, simply replace "women" with said group and "men" with the applicable privileged group.

3 Bonus points for discussion on rape, sexual assault, or domestic abuse.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

kiffer

Rosy Posy wrote: »

What about the menz?:rolleyes:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

In fairness everone* does this.
Men do it in threads and conversations about women's issues, women do it in threads about men's issues.
White people do it in treads about racism and non-white people do it in threads about "white-people" problems...


*By everyone I actually mean some members of every group... not every member of every group.

tritium

Rosy Posy wrote: »

What about the menz?:rolleyes:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

You know if I didn't know better I might just think that was a soundbyte used to deflect away the validity of any counter argument (the link you posted rather than your post or it's intent)

Of course it's not, right?

On a more general point, as I understand it, at present a woman can't actually commit rape in this country. One of those bizarre quirks of the law that someone should have known better with

FTA69

It's gas that many of the men here insinuating a slap on the ass is a trivial act would absolutely flip their f*cking lid if another man slapped their girlfriend's ass; or groped their sister in a nightclub.

Probably because they realise that such an act is disgraceful carry on and despite what some people think, constitutes a sexual assault.

tritium

FTA69 wrote: »

It's gas that many of the men here insinuating a slap on the ass is a trivial act would absolutely flip their f*cking lid if another man slapped their girlfriend's ass; or groped their sister in a nightclub.

Probably because they realise that such an act is disgraceful carry on and despite what some people think, constitutes a sexual assault.

I think you've (rather spectacularly) missed the point. There's a huge difference between not equating a slap on the behind with rape and completely dismissing it. While we've had both of the extremes in this thread, most posters seem Happy to concede that distinction

FTA69

Not really. It looks like some people on this thread have continually tried to play down the significance of groping or slapping a woman's ass. The fact is that such an action constitutes a sexual assault and that nobody has a right to sexually touch another individual without their consent. It's those who can't simply accept that without putting a load of ridiculous criteria on it who "are missing the point" as you put it.

I'm not comparing a slap in the ass with the act of rape; but they are both parts of the sexual assault spectrum.

coffee_cake

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm not comparing a slap in the ass with the act of rape.

Nobody has, but the detractors keep insisting so anyway

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

bluewolf wrote: »

Nobody has, but the detractors keep insisting so anyway

no but they've linked it with "rape culture"

FTA69

It's like if I said I got punched on a night out and said there was a "culture of violence" in society only for someone to start going "you'd swear you were stabbed the way you're carrying on, sure twas only a box in the face like."

Rape culture exists, the notion that women are an inferior species to men is ingrained into society, it has been a prevalent feature since civilisation began. Part of the subjugation of women is of a sexual nature; obviously in some cases that can take more extreme forms than others but the notion that it can be acceptable or "not a big deal" to grope a woman is part of that culture. Why people feel the need to trivialise it as "harmless fun" or "drunken rowdiness" as opposed to plain accepting that it's just wrong is beyond me.

Whether you want to use the term "rape culture" or not is up to you, but you can't ignore the link between groping women (viewing them as sex objects) and you can't ignore the fact it links in with the same culture that produces rape and seeks to trivialise rape.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

so men groping women is part of "rape culture", women groping men is just a thing that happens that isn't as big a deal. is that how it is?
men evil, women victims. women being aggressors is only them reacting to the horrors of their patriarchal oppression is it?

osarusan

FTA69 wrote: »

Why people feel the need to trivialise it as "harmless fun" or "drunken rowdiness" as opposed to plain accepting that it's just wrong is beyond me.

Can you please quote any posts where it has been trivialised as 'harmless fun'?

I can't recall any on this thread.

FTA69

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

so men groping women is part of "rape culture", women groping men is just a thing that happens that isn't as big a deal. is that how it is?
men evil, women victims. women being aggressors is only them reacting to the horrors of their patriarchal oppression is it?

No, anyone making anyone feel sexually uncomfortable is bang out of order and when women do it it's either because they're in a position of power (e.g. boss) or else in a group (i.e hen nights.) Nobody is defending women who use sexuality as a weapon or to bully poor youngfellas behind a bar or whatever.

And yes, men thinking that it's ok to grope a woman (i.e. commit an illegal sexual assault) or that it isn't a "big deal" are unfortunately contributing to a culture which promotes the denigration of women.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

FTA69 wrote: »

No, anyone making anyone feel sexually uncomfortable is bang out of order and when women do it it's either because they're in a position of power (e.g. boss) or else in a group (i.e hen nights.) Nobody is defending women who use sexuality as a weapon or to bully poor youngfellas behind a bar or whatever.

And yes, men thinking that it's ok to grope a woman (i.e. commit an illegal sexual assault) or that it isn't a "big deal" are unfortunately contributing to a culture which promotes the denigration of women.

why is it when men do it they're contributing to "rape culture" but not when women do it? what is the difference?

even in your post. when women do it they're making men feel "sexually uncomfortable" when men do it they're committing a sexual assault. it's incredible.

osarusan

FTA69 wrote: »

And yes, men thinking that it's ok to grope a woman (i.e. commit an illegal sexual assault) or that it isn't a "big deal" are unfortunately contributing to a culture which promotes the denigration of women.

Can you quote where anybody on this thread has said it's ok to grope women?

FTA69

And the strawmanning begins.

I said that some men think it's ok to grope women, an obvious fact considering how much of it goes on. I never said posters here said it was ok to grope women, rather some posters here, in my opinion, were attempting to trivialise it or else portray it as entirely disconnected from more serious sexual assaults such as rape.

Hope that clears things up for you.

tritium

FTA69 wrote: »

It's like if I said I got punched on a night out and said there was a "culture of violence" in society only for someone to start going "you'd swear you were stabbed the way you're carrying on, sure twas only a box in the face like."

Rape culture exists, the notion that women are an inferior species to men is ingrained into society, it has been a prevalent feature since civilisation began. Part of the subjugation of women is of a sexual nature; obviously in some cases that can take more extreme forms than others but the notion that it can be acceptable or "not a big deal" to grope a woman is part of that culture. Why people feel the need to trivialise it as "harmless fun" or "drunken rowdiness" as opposed to plain accepting that it's just wrong is beyond me.

Whether you want to use the term "rape culture" or not is up to you, but you can't ignore the link between groping women (viewing them as sex objects) and you can't ignore the fact it links in with the same culture that produces rape and seeks to trivialise rape.

Oh boy, buckle up cause here we go again.....,

For the avoidance of going around in circles can I respectfully suggest you read the last twenty or so pages of te thread where this has been done to death. You're entitled to your opinion on this but I think you'll find that there's been fairly extensive counter arguments made already.

FTA69

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

why is it when men do it they're contributing to "rape culture" but not when women do it? what is the difference?

even in your post. when women do it they're making men feel "sexually uncomfortable" when men do it they're committing a sexual assault. it's incredible.

Because generally men raping women is a serious issue the world over while the blatant fact of the matter is that the reverse isn't the case. Sexual subjugation of men by women isn't a concept ingrained into society. Any instance of sexual assault, groping, bullying etc against any individual is a disgrace.

But there's no point in pretending that men and women suffer sexual subjugation in equal measure in the world we live in. I don't see reports of women mass raping men in the Congo, and I don't see female religious fundamentals insisting men wear masks or gang raping men on buses.

Three Seasons

FTA69 wrote: »

No, anyone making anyone feel sexually uncomfortable is bang out of order and when women do it it's either because they're in a position of power (e.g. boss) or else in a group (i.e hen nights.) Nobody is defending women who use sexuality as a weapon or to bully poor youngfellas behind a bar or whatever.

And yes, men thinking that it's ok to grope a woman (i.e. commit an illegal sexual assault) or that it isn't a "big deal" are unfortunately contributing to a culture which promotes the denigration of women.

Are you fond of generalisations, you say when women do it it's because of they're in a position of power or in a group such as a hen party.

I've had women fondle and gripe me who were on nights out who weren't on hen nights, on one occasion a woman came up and kissed me out of no where. That put me on edge as I was half expecting a boyfriend to come over and hit me.