The sex myth

bodice ripper · 19-04-2013 7:10pm

Pug160 wrote: »

The successful methods men use to commit suicide are open to women, so it has to be assumed that women are more likely to do it as a cry for help, as the methods they choose are less likely to result in death. I don't see why people are giving me a hard time for saying this.

bollox. women go "missing". near peirs in the wee hours of the morning. families won't say they topped themselves.

suicide_circus · 19-04-2013 7:12pm

this is rape culture:

http://m.rte.ie/news/touch/2013/0417/381928-un-envoy-rape/

anyone claiming there is a rape culture in Ireland is seriously deluded and needs to cop themselves on pronto.

Czarcasm · 19-04-2013 7:13pm

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I don't understand why some people find some words offensive. They're just words.

People are offended by words because words have meaning, so for example when I was growing up there was nothing queer about Noddy and Big Ears going for a gay stroll in the woods. Nowadays though that'd raise a few eyebrows!

The word rape isn't offensive, the act of committing rape is.

The word rape itself isn't what causes offence, it's how that word is used, and in instances where it is trivialised, most people would still consider it offensive, as in the example I gave where my friend thought it was ok to say she wanted to rape a guy, but took offence when I asked how would she like if he were to rape her.

We all use inappropriate language in a non-offensive manner - Americans, for instance, are horrified when they hear us telling someone to f*uck off, to us it can simply be a way of saying 'that's unbelievable!'.

If an American girl was leaving a bar in Ireland, and asked any of the men if they'd like a ride, but they'd have to squeeze in behind her fanny as she's only driving a rental and she can't handle the stick shift...

There wouldn't be a dry japs eye in the house! :pac:

Daveysil15 · 19-04-2013 7:13pm

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I'm not aware of misandry in the media being any more prevalent than misogyny, laws preventing unmarried fathers having parental rights are farcical, if you look at the gay adoption thread you will see I have criticised that.

Some of the posts on this thread suggest that men are sexual predators, I have disagreed with that.

Both men and women face discrimination, neither are acceptable. I honestly do not know anyone who would ignore a man in distress, some might not know what to say but they wouldn't use flippant comments like 'man up'.

Women are accused of being bitter too, I'm frequently told I'll end up a bitter, old woman because I don't want children. To me, that's amusing because it assumes a woman can only achieve fulfillment through procreating.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said there. Just trying to eloborate on what that other poster was saying. If I wanted to be pedantic, I could add the fear of peodophiles and how men are not allowed to sit next to children on certain airlines, but I don't want to turn it into a contest of which gender has it worse. And you're right about the women been accused of been bitter too, and the whole spinster thing also. That happens a lot.

shopaholic01 · 19-04-2013 7:18pm

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said there. Just trying to eloborate on what that other poster was saying. If I wanted to be pedantic, I could add the fear of peodophiles and how men are not allowed to sit next to children on certain airlines, but I don't want to turn it into a contest of which gender has it worse. And you're right about the women been accused of been bitter too, and the whole spinster thing. That happens a lot.

Daveysil15, that poster was saying that a small minority of men may become rapists as a result of this marginalisation. That was my issue with it, it's justifying rape to a certain extent and saying that some men can't help it.

I don't think that's true, and it's a disservice to men to claim it is. I don't know any man who would agree with that logic.

BTW, I agree with your points, I'm not arguing with you, I was just looking for clarification from that poster.

shopaholic01 · 19-04-2013 7:22pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

People are offended by words because words have meaning, so for example when I was growing up there was nothing queer about Noddy and Big Ears going for a gay stroll in the woods. Nowadays though that'd raise a few eyebrows!

Do any other words offend you? People were offended by Ernie and Bert sharing a room in Sesame Street, the notion of 2 puppets having gay sex doesn't bother me either.

Czarcasm wrote: »

The word rape itself isn't what causes offence, it's how that word is used, and in instances where it is trivialised, most people would still consider it offensive, as in the example I gave where my friend thought it was ok to say she wanted to rape a guy, but took offence when I asked how would she like if he were to rape her.

Have to disagree with you, C. I don't find words offensive.

Czarcasm wrote: »

If an American girl was leaving a bar in Ireland, and asked any of the men if they'd like a ride, but they'd have to squeeze in behind her fanny as she's only driving a rental and she can't handle the stick shift...

There wouldn't be a dry japs eye in the house! :pac:

But would they find any of it offensive?

shoos · 19-04-2013 7:48pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

this is rape culture:

http://m.rte.ie/news/touch/2013/0417/381928-un-envoy-rape/

anyone claiming there is a rape culture in Ireland is seriously deluded and needs to cop themselves on pronto.

In my experience, there is a worrying view of rape in Ireland so I don't think it's fair to post rape occurring in war-torn or 3rd world countries as a way of showing how great we have it.

I've seen men at parties specifically target the drunkest girl, sober men trying to bring a girl so drunk she couldn't keep her head raised to the toilet. My friend woke up with a hand up her top and a tongue in her mouth when she had passed out at a party. I was the person who put her to bed, she was out cold, and the boy who did it knew full well the state she was in. When she tried to talk about it the next day she felt too ashamed and embarrassed and I can actually completely understand why, I know I would have felt exactly the same. That's rape culture, Irish rape culture. I'd go into more detail as to why but I'm finding it a bit too upsetting right now. Boys in my college course were laughing one day when they had to lift I passing out drunk woman they have found in a club into a taxi, but not before one of the guys "had a minute" with her where he sexually assaulted her. This happened just a year ago or so in Dublin. About eight, pretty normal as lads go, boys in my course thought it was kinda wrong but obviously in a hilarious way and certainly not to the point the stopped him, took her off him, or ended their friendship with a guy who thinks its ok to do that.

I have more stories as well so I really don't think it's right to state there's no issue of rape culture in Ireland.

As for pinching, groping and slapping bottoms in nightclubs - while I don't know what I'd label it, I find it absolutely despicable.

There's a certain element of entitlement from the person who does it. Nothing makes my blood boil more than turning around to see the smug face of some horrible little man who, for reasons beyond me, thinks he has the right to touch me in a private sexual area.

Daveysil15 · 19-04-2013 7:57pm

shoos wrote: »

In my experience, there is a worrying view of rape in Ireland so I don't think it's fair to post rape occurring in war-torn or 3rd world countries as a way of showing how great we have it.

I've seen men at parties specifically target the drunkest girl, sober men trying to bring a girl so drunk she couldn't keep her head raised to the toilet. My friend woke up with a hand up her top and a tongue in her mouth when she had passed out at a party. I was the person who put her to bed, she was out cold, and the boy who did it knew full well the state she was in. When she tried to talk about it the next day she felt too ashamed and embarrassed and I can actually completely understand why, I know I would have felt exactly the same. That's rape culture, Irish rape culture. I'd go into more detail as to why but I'm finding it a bit too upsetting right now. Boys in my college course were laughing one day when they had to lift I passing out drunk woman they have found in a club into a taxi, but not before one of the guys "had a minute" with her where he sexually assaulted her. This happened just a year ago or so in Dublin. About eight, pretty normal as lads go, boys in my course thought it was kinda wrong but obviously in a hilarious way and certainly not to the point the stopped him, took her off him, or ended their friendship with a guy who thinks its ok to do that.

I have more stories as well so I really don't think it's right to state there's no issue of rape culture in Ireland.

As for pinching, groping and slapping bottoms in nightclubs - while I don't know what I'd label it, I find it absolutely despicable.

There's a certain element of entitlement from the person who does it. Nothing makes my blood boil more than turning around to see the smug face of some horrible little man who, for reasons beyond me, thinks he has the right to touch me in a private sexual area.

Maybe he was so little he couldn't reach any higher.

Czarcasm · 19-04-2013 8:02pm

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Do any other words offend you?

But would they find any of it offensive?

Call over to mine some evening and I'll let you whisper filth in my ear all night, it might take a while before I'm offended though so you'd better bring a dictionary just in case!

carolmarx · 19-04-2013 8:03pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

this is rape culture:

http://m.rte.ie/news/touch/2013/0417/381928-un-envoy-rape/

anyone claiming there is a rape culture in Ireland is seriously deluded and needs to cop themselves on pronto.

With all due respect, I have to disagree.
I was raped last year. I ended up alone with a man I had accepted drinks off of and kissed in a night club. I expressly and uncategorically told him that I didn't want to have sex with him, and then he pressured me verbally and physically. Upon recounting the events to a person I thought was a good friend, I was informed that sure, it was my own fault and what did I expect...If you accept drinks off a man and end up alone with him, then it's reasonable for him to demand sex. THAT, is rape culture.

Madam_X · 19-04-2013 8:05pm

But is a minority of vile people with vile attitudes = a "culture"?
I'd agree the above culture was more prevalent in Ireland 40 years ago, but now we challenge it.

As for groping a stranger, no matter what gender the groper/gropee is, is ****ing rotten behaviour. Some guys say they like it, that it's not the same - but to me, it's equally skanky. As to what "scale" of seriousness: depends on the person, context etc. Man/woman gropes me in crowded pub, I tell them **** off; man/woman gropes me in a lift and nobody else there... far more sinister and potentially damaging. IMO its seriousness is more subjective than rape, but it's still despicable to have the attitude you can grab part of a stranger's body without their consent, no matter what context.

"Rape culture" is such an inflammatory, polarising term IMO though. It's bound to make men defensive, not because they don't take rape/sexual assault/sexual abuse seriously, but because the phrase implies that women in this culture are at the mercy of a predatory male population. Whether that's the intention or not, men who aren't misogynists/chauvinists/gropers/abusers (i.e. most men) are going to feel under fire on the basis of this term because it implies really frightening attitudes towards women are ingrained in our culture. They're there for sure, but I cannot agree they're ingrained in our culture in 2013.

It's like the "If it was a woman, it would be a different story" thing getting brought up when it's not relevant: even though the intention may not be hostility towards women, it can feel that way. So I think it's only fair to put yourself in a guy's shoes and consider how the term "rape culture" would affect you. Think of guys in terms of your partner/brothers/father/friend's/sons rather than as a faceless group.

Czarcasm · 19-04-2013 8:13pm

shoos wrote: »

I have more stories as well so I really don't think it's right to state there's no issue of rape culture in Ireland.

What you and others who use the term "rape culture" is that it implies that rape is a cultural phenomenon. It's not, not by a long shot, what it IS though, is a problem in society, that isn't helped by attaching the act of rape to an act like a slap on the àrse. Both are sexual assault, but what makes them different is the intention of the perpetrator.

Daveysil15 · 19-04-2013 8:15pm

Madam_X wrote: »

But is a minority of vile people with vile attitudes = a "culture"?
I'd agree the above culture was more prevalent in Ireland 40 years ago, but now we challenge it.

As for groping a stranger, no matter what gender the groper/gropee is, is ****ing rotten behaviour. Some guys say they like it, that it's not the same - but to me, it's equally skanky. As to what "scale" of seriousness: depends on the person, context etc. Man/woman gropes me in crowded pub, I tell them **** off; man/woman gropes me in a lift and nobody else there... far more sinister and potentially damaging. IMO its seriousness is more subjective than rape, but it's still despicable to have the attitude you can grab part of a stranger's body without their consent, no matter what context.

If its a minority then no, its not. But it does seem to be more acceptable for women to grope men. Another poster commented on the crazy antics some women get up to on a hen night, grabbing lads balls etc. And sure its all just a bit of fun.

smcgiff · 19-04-2013 8:15pm

carolmarx wrote: »

With all due respect, I have to disagree.
I was raped last year. I ended up alone with a man I had accepted drinks off of and kissed in a night club. I expressly and uncategorically told him that I didn't want to have sex with him, and then he pressured me verbally and physically. Upon recounting the events to a person I thought was a good friend, I was informed that sure, it was my own fault and what did I expect...If you accept drinks off a man and end up alone with him, then it's reasonable for him to demand sex. THAT, is rape culture.

Sorry to hear that. I hope you at least warned your friends about him. People like him do exist.

It goes without saying you need a better friend.

However, if we use the term rape culture we are saying that rape is acceptable to the majority of people in Ireland, that it is our culture. I don't accept that.

Are there going to be cases where individuals have appaling judgements (like your friend) - yes, but that doesn't a culture make.

Pug160 · 19-04-2013 8:16pm

carolmarx wrote: »

With all due respect, I have to disagree.
I was raped last year. I ended up alone with a man I had accepted drinks off of and kissed in a night club. I expressly and uncategorically told him that I didn't want to have sex with him, and then he pressured me verbally and physically. Upon recounting the events to a person I thought was a good friend, I was informed that sure, it was my own fault and what did I expect...If you accept drinks off a man and end up alone with him, then it's reasonable for him to demand sex. THAT, is rape culture.

With all due respect (and I'm sorry about what happened, btw) that was just one person's opinion, it wasn't 100,000 people simultaneously telling you it was your fault. How can this so called culture be measured and defined? Is it supposed to be males over a certain age, or males in general, or the overall population in general? I think it's a really lazy term and the people using it should go back to treating people as individuals.

Three Seasons · 19-04-2013 8:18pm

carolmarx wrote: »

With all due respect, I have to disagree.
I was raped last year. I ended up alone with a man I had accepted drinks off of and kissed in a night club. I expressly and uncategorically told him that I didn't want to have sex with him, and then he pressured me verbally and physically. Upon recounting the events to a person I thought was a good friend, I was informed that sure, it was my own fault and what did I expect...If you accept drinks off a man and end up alone with him, then it's reasonable for him to demand sex. THAT, is rape culture.

That's not rape culture, that's one particular man with those particular morals/ beliefs or lack thereof.

I don't think from that one encounter you should generalise a rape culture. That one particular man had rapist beliefs, not the culture.

carolmarx · 19-04-2013 8:23pm

Three Seasons wrote: »

That's not rape culture, that's one particular man with those particular morals/ beliefs or lack thereof.

I don't think from that one encounter you should generalise a rape culture. That one particular man had rapist beliefs, not the culture.

I take on board everyones opinion on the issue, it's a tenuous term that can mean so many different things to different people. But I personally believe attitudes like that are unfortunately common, depressingly enough my friend was a woman.

Pug160 · 19-04-2013 8:39pm

carolmarx wrote: »

I take on board everyones opinion on the issue, it's a tenuous term that can mean so many different things to different people. But I personally believe attitudes like that are unfortunately common, depressingly enough my friend was a woman.

It seems a harsh attitude to have, but even so, it's still not promoting rape, although in some ways it's kind of condoning it (in certain circumstances). If you said no it was rape - there's no doubt in my mind.

Your friend was most likely thinking of lots of different scenarios such as a woman's guilt at having casual consenting sex, or some women's tendency of sometimes leading men on then wondering why the man is acting like a rabid dog when the word no is said. It's no excuse, but you'll have to have a conversation with her to find out why she thinks the way she does.

shopaholic01 · 19-04-2013 8:40pm

carolmarx wrote: »

I take on board everyones opinion on the issue, it's a tenuous term that can mean so many different things to different people. But I personally believe attitudes like that are unfortunately common, depressingly enough my friend was a woman.

Would the comment have been more acceptable if your friend was male?

otto_26 · 19-04-2013 8:41pm

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

well most of the "human trafficking" stats come from hardcore religious organisations or hardcore feminists, neither of which can really be trusted about anything

What about hardcore non-religious organisations could they be trusted to do the study?

carolmarx · 19-04-2013 8:43pm

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Would the comment have been more acceptable if your friend was male?

Nope, I don't think it would have been acceptable coming from anyone. I just found it depressing because as a woman it is more likely to happen to her than a male, (and yes i acknowledge it happens men), and with a poor understanding of what does and does not constitute rape I hope she never finds herself in the situation! That's all.

Rosy Posy · 19-04-2013 8:55pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

This exactly. It's the same as the "slut walk" nonsense- their intention being to "take the power out of the word" "slut".

A rapist isn't going to give a shìte about what society chooses to call their behaviour, much less what society chooses to call their victims, or "survivors" is the new buzzword apparently.

As I've said before its playing the long game and trying to change the prevailing culture. I don't believe that rapists are born, they are created. While there may be a disposition towards this kind of crime, a stronger culture of condemnation, and a society that sees women as people rather than objects will diminish the prevalence of the crime.

I choose to use the term survivor as a means of empowerment. I'm sorry that you have a problem with women taking back their power. At its most basic level rape is a crime of power, not just sexuality.

wetfoot · 19-04-2013 9:13pm

Three Seasons wrote: »

That's not rape culture, that's one particular man with those particular morals/ beliefs or lack thereof.

I don't think from that one encounter you should generalise a rape culture. That one particular man had rapist beliefs, not the culture.

Unfortunately a significant number of men do act in this way and a worrying number of them would not think they have done anything wrong. I would also wager that there's a number of women who've read carolmarx's account who have found themselves in a similar position but who haven't seen their experience as rape. The attitude of her friend demonstrates the inability of some people to understand that there is no such thing as 'asking for it'.

somefeen · 19-04-2013 9:13pm

I learnt all my morals from Nick Cave.

http://youtu.be/lL3dNfxcpnw

shopaholic01 · 19-04-2013 9:14pm

somefeen wrote: »

I learnt all my morals from Nick Cave.

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lL3dNfxcpnw?hl=en_US&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lL3dNfxcpnw?hl=en_US&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Link doesn't work!

Rosy Posy · 19-04-2013 9:17pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Teaching your daughter that certain routes aren't safe to walk at night, that she should be aware of her surroundings, that she should keep a close eye on her drink and not accept one from someone she doesn't know isn't in any way condoning sexual violence or engendering a belief that such things are okay. It's preparing her for the real world and no different to teaching your son not to walk home from a night out or not to take a particular route

How about teaching your sons and daughters equality and respect. I would cover basic safety with all of my children but rather than over emphasising the safety aspect with my daughter, as is endemic in Irish culture (we all know families where the lads are given free reign and the daughters are given curfews and social restrictions), I choose to ensure that my sons have a deep respect for women and see them as more than just domestic workers and sexual objects.

Steve O · 19-04-2013 9:20pm

carolmarx wrote: »

With all due respect, I have to disagree.
I was raped last year. I ended up alone with a man I had accepted drinks off of and kissed in a night club. I expressly and uncategorically told him that I didn't want to have sex with him, and then he pressured me verbally and physically. Upon recounting the events to a person I thought was a good friend, I was informed that sure, it was my own fault and what did I expect...If you accept drinks off a man and end up alone with him, then it's reasonable for him to demand sex. THAT, is rape culture.

Christ sake, a knee in the bollocks would have been too good for that cnut.

B0jangles · 19-04-2013 9:21pm

shoos wrote: »

My friend woke up with a hand up her top and a tongue in her mouth when she had passed out at a party.

Except that you are presumably still in college, I'd swear you were my friend and were talking about me. This exact thing happened to me when I was in college but that was at least 10 years ago. I woke up when my friend walking in and sort of gasped/screamed, to find myself with a total stranger lying on top of me groping me and trying to stick his tongue in my mouth.

I jumped up and ran out and told the guy whose house it was and took refuge in another room. The house-owner chased the guy away (I never did know who it was). The guy whose room I hid out in to recover started coming on to me when I was trying to get warmed up by sitting under the duvet.

A fun night all around.

kiffer · 19-04-2013 9:29pm

Rosy Posy wrote: »

How about teaching your sons and daughters equality and respect. I would cover basic safety with all of my children but rather than over emphasising the safety aspect with my daughter, as is endemic in Irish culture (we all know families where the lads are given free reign and the daughters are given curfews and social restrictions), I choose to ensure that my sons have a deep respect for women and see them as more than just domestic workers and sexual objects.

As well...

Teaching them to be respectful human beings will protect others from them... not them from others.
Teaching them to be safe and avoid high risk situations doesn't mean that you don't also teach them to be good upstanding respectful individuals... why the false dichotomy?

Da Shins Kelly · 19-04-2013 9:29pm

carolmarx wrote: »

With all due respect, I have to disagree.
I was raped last year. I ended up alone with a man I had accepted drinks off of and kissed in a night club. I expressly and uncategorically told him that I didn't want to have sex with him, and then he pressured me verbally and physically. Upon recounting the events to a person I thought was a good friend, I was informed that sure, it was my own fault and what did I expect...If you accept drinks off a man and end up alone with him, then it's reasonable for him to demand sex. THAT, is rape culture.

I'm really sorry to hear that this happened to you.

With regards to the term "rape culture", it's a strange term, but I definitely think that there is a worrying attitude to victims of sexual assault, particularly those who are assaulted while under the influence of alcohol. The amount of assaults that go unreported is an indicator of the stigma attached to such crimes, and that is in part a result of victim-blaming or the whole idea that no one will believe you, because attacks may come down to a "your word against mine" situation.

The sex myth

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