The dole

[Jackass]

To give a little tid bit on my own experience, I lived abroad for a couple of years (working and paying tax) after having worked for 6 or 7 years in Ireland after leaving school (and never claiming benefits).

When I returned to Ireland, I spent about a month looking for work before accepting I would need to go on the dole. One of the main reasons I came back was also to complete college, so I went to the dole office and asked to go on the dole, and then I also asked about back to education allowance - which I was told would be fine, it was about 9 months until college would start, so in the mean time I would look for a job.

Eventually, after about 6 weeks on the dole, I found a perfect job, it was short term (6 month contract), very well paid and I was thrilled, so I went to the dole office to quit my dole payments and also mentioned the back to education allowance at the same time.

Now, get this, I was ADVISED by the person in the dole office, that if I took this job, as it was only a 6 months contract and then I would be going to college, the fact that I had worked would mean I would no longer be eligible for the back to education allowance, and seeing as my degree would be over 3 years, I would be better off staying on the dole so that I could get the allowance for the duration of my degree (roughly 180 a week during my degree - which works out at almost 30,000 euro for doing my degree - paid to me - insane money to be giving away to someone who is removing themselves from the workforce in the first place) If I was to have taken a different degree choice I was offered over 4 years - back to education allowance would have been nearly 40,000 given to me over the duration of my degree...

Now, needless to say, they put me in quite the dilemma. I had a really good, short term job lined up, paying very well (upper tax bracket - so I would be contributing a fair chunk back to the Government) but I was being offered insane money NOT to work, and was being told this at the dole office.

I would like to say it was 100% my concious that made me decide to still remove myself from the dole and take the job, but whilst it was a factor, I also had some short term high priority purchase I wanted to make (engaged, yeay!) and the job was good enough that I wanted those 6 months work experience on my CV, so I took it but it still to this day leaves me baffled to the state of country I'm in, that I am being given incentives not to work by my Government - and by convincing me not to work (had I decided to just be lazy and / or dishonest) they would then be picking up a tab of tens of thousands of euros to support me, despite not being in the workforce (student, therefore not looking for or eligible for full time employment) and paying my "free fees" of about 5,000 a year, as well as forgoing the thousands in tax Revenue they could have gotten from me...

So now I work part-time when I can to support myself through college, along with my fiancee heavily subsidising us, and I'm not entitled to squat .... I get a measly grant to pay for college books - paid in 3 installments, the last of which after I am finished college for the summer (are they assuming I get my books on credit?) - and all of this because I chose to work!

Amazing.

I don't regret working, but it does make me slightly annoyed sometimes when I'm struggling with finance so bad, and I'm seeing all these people suffering through cut backs, and then I'm thinking of not only the position I was presented with, but also, how many people have been presented the same situation and decided to live the high life and be lazy at the same time....

I did email the minister to advise her of this potential "loop hole" and also to let her know that I was being given strong incentives not to work by the current welfare structure - I took an hour of my time or so to research some figures and send her a well presented case study and well broken down, to which I got a 2 word reply - "duly noted". That was 2 years ago, and to my knowledge, the system remains the same.

firemansam4

nesf wrote: »

I've family who've had to do exactly that. Their skills over so many years were so tightly focused in construction and related industries that there is no work for them here. None, they were willing to work anywhere in the country. The ones who moved were too old to realistically retrain (10 years or so to retirement) so they had to move to Dubai and similar to find work. A wife and several children were left behind in one case (the kids being secondary/college age).

It's not unrealistic, it's the actual reality for some people. Which is horrible.

Yes true I accept people do do that, but what I think is unrealistic is expecting other people should have to move abroad away from there families to get off the dole. There are plenty of scroungers out there who could not be arsed going to get a job and I think this is what the OP brought up at the start.

I had to work the far side of the country and spend all week away from my kids and only see them at the weekends and I thought that was hard enough - never mind going abroad and spending months away from my family - I would not expect any person on the dole to have to do that.
On the other hand it does drive me crazy there are people who do chose to make SW a life choice and have no real interest in finding work - that is a different kettle of fish.

AlekSmart

firemansam4 wrote: »

Yes true I accept people do do that, but what I think is unrealistic is expecting other people should have to move abroad away from there families to get off the dole. There are plenty of scroungers out there who could not be arsed going to get a job and I think this is what the OP brought up at the start.

I had to work the far side of the country and spend all week away from my kids and only see them at the weekends and I thought that was hard enough - never mind going abroad and spending months away from my family - I would not expect any person on the dole to have to do that.
On the other hand it does drive me crazy there are people who do chose to make SW a life choice and have no real interest in finding work - that is a different kettle of fish.

There is also,perhaps,a valid question to be posed as to whether Ireland is Overpopulated ?

With the demographics of employment,and the reality that Ireland has pretty much done with large-scale Industrial Employment,is there a sustainable view that Ireland will never again be capable of sustaining it's current population level ?

I'm not referring specifically to people coming from other juristictions to avail of our higher Social Benefit Rates,but the wider point of whether this Country needs to lose a significant number of people in order to achieve viability ?

Melion

nesf wrote: »

I've family who've had to do exactly that. Their skills over so many years were so tightly focused in construction and related industries that there is no work for them here. None, they were willing to work anywhere in the country. The ones who moved were too old to realistically retrain (10 years or so to retirement) so they had to move to Dubai and similar to find work. A wife and several children were left behind in one case (the kids being secondary/college age).

It's not unrealistic, it's the actual reality for some people. Which is horrible.

If my daughter was in secondary school or college then i would have been gone like a shot to either of the 2 jobs i was offered. She is 3, thats the difference.

carpejugulum

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

But that might effect the poorest people in the country,

Yes, there may be jobs for them then. At the moment, their productivity is not high enough to earn the minimum wage so they cannot get a job.

firemansam4 wrote: »

Was that 2 job offers from abroad?? get off your high horse, you cant expect anyone to have to do that!!

I don't expect people who can fend for themselves to do that.

Sin City wrote: »

As for welfare cuts, how are people to survive
Most cant survive as it is, how do you expect them to survive with the cuts?

People can't survive on welfare? Really?

Melion wrote: »

If my daughter was in secondary school or college then i would have been gone like a shot to either of the 2 jobs i was offered. She is 3, thats the difference.

You don't live with your daughter?

Sin City

carpejugulum wrote: »

Yes, there may be jobs for them then. At the moment, their productivity is not high enough to earn the minimum wage so they cannot get a job.

Jobs , but at what cost. They will still struggle to make ends meat, they will in essence probably be no better off than they are now. They may be working , but earning what a fiver an hour, 5 *36 would give you 180 now does that seem fair?

carpejugulum

Sin City wrote: »

Jobs , but at what cost. They will still struggle to make ends meat, they will in essence probably be no better off than they are now. They may be working , but earning what a fiver an hour, 5 *36 would give you 180 now does that seem fair?

If that is the only job they can get, then it is fair, much fairer than others paying for their lack of skills and education anyway.

Sin City

carpejugulum wrote: »

If that is the only job they can get, then it is fair, much fairer than others paying for their lack of skills and education anyway.

Its not fair at all mate. Some of them might not be educated or skilled, some might, some might be skilled at an outdated skill and is too old to retrain, would you tell them that yeah , you made bad choices in life bud so I want you to work hard at a less than minimum wage job so you can earn your pittence and I dont have to hand my taxes over to you.

Sin City

Why dont we do away with all the state pensions aswell, screw it every pension, they arent working anymore, why should they have any money. They are no longer conributing to society. If I have to work..........yada yada....... and they want money for being bone idle..........yada yada.........They would be let stave in other countries.............yada yada

nesf

Melion wrote: »

If my daughter was in secondary school or college then i would have been gone like a shot to either of the 2 jobs i was offered. She is 3, thats the difference.

Yeah, I thought that was the case, that is why I mentioned their ages.

Gott

[Jackass] wrote: »

...snip

A friend of mine and I both left college two years ago; I spent the interim year working before going to college in Scotland while he sat around on the dole (he did literally not want a job at the time), and while I've been struggling to pay fees, accomodation, whatever else here (I decided to forgo the free fees for the HNC year to use them for my degree) he was getting a huge lump of money for the Back to Education allowance, in addition to his €9,000 fees for his H. Dip paid.
He said he might do a Masters and I asked would he try and get something part time to pay for it and was told, no, that would mean he wouldn't get BEA or fees paid.

Madness. Nearly wish I'd been unemployed before starting college.

skafish

Sin City wrote: »

Its not fair at all mate. Some of them might not be educated or skilled, some might, some might be skilled at an outdated skill and is too old to retrain, would you tell them that yeah , you made bad choices in life bud so I want you to work hard at a less than minimum wage job so you can earn your pittence and I dont have to hand my taxes over to you.

Since when is life supposed to be fair??

There is no such thing as being too old to retrain. I have a friend who had to give up his job as a crane driver a few years ago. He was in his mid fifties at the time..... right in the middle of the "boom", so you can work out the income level he was at.

Anyway, he went away and trained as, of all things, a barber. Now has his own shop, and 2 people working for him.

Tea drinker

Sin City wrote: »

Its not fair at all mate. Some of them might not be educated or skilled, some might, some might be skilled at an outdated skill and is too old to retrain, would you tell them that yeah , you made bad choices in life bud so I want you to work hard at a less than minimum wage job so you can earn your pittence and I dont have to hand my taxes over to you.

It's not fair that I have no house but have to pay for others, or that I have a job and gave up weekends to study but have to pay for people who won't work and won't train.
Taking money from my hand to theirs is fair? Get any notion of fairness out of your head ESPECIALLY in Ireland.

srsly78

Jackass: Your figures are missing even more handouts. In 2003 you could quit your job 6 months before college started to qualify for BTEA. Then you could get BTEA plus rent allowance plus grant from county council. There really was no excuse not to get a degree, they were throwing money at people. I happen to know someone that availed of all the aforementioned handouts; this person now pays an awful lot of tax so maybe there is some sense in educational investment.

They have tightened things up a bit since then I think, can't get grant and btea at same time now.

Melion

carpejugulum wrote: »

You don't live with your daughter?

No I don't, why?

carpejugulum

Melion wrote: »

No I don't, why?

Because then staying is purely a lifestyle choice, which should not be involuntarily paid for by others.

Sin City

carpejugulum wrote: »

Because then staying is purely a lifestyle choice, which should not be involuntarily paid for by others.

Would you seriously want to tear an obviously loving father away from his daughter just you MIGHT be involuntarily paying for it. I really hope for your sake that you never find yourself in his position

carpejugulum

Sin City wrote: »

Would you seriously want to tear an obviously loving father away from his daughter just you MIGHT be involuntarily paying for it. I really hope for your sake that you never find yourself in his position

Will you pay me so I can live closer to my family? Or is it just tax payers money you are so generous with?
Also his personal decisions and actions lead to this situation.

SCOOP 64

The lucky people with jobs just need to exempt the fact for the foreseeable future unemployment numbers will be high and your taxes will be paying for people on the dole,its be happening for years, this is not going to change.
just think to your selfs, I'm so lucky to be working.

katy67

ok, carpejugulum

Why don't you give your job to someone that on the dole, who would be happy to take it. You go on the dole, get 188 and see if you can manage it.
You might be happier
I'm sure if you were in Melion's postion, you do the same. Its not a lifestyle choice

Anyway, isn't he claiming from based on his earnings as he has worked and paid his taxes before so maybe you mightn't be paying for him! (I could be wrong)

firemansam4

carpejugulum wrote: »

Because then staying is purely a lifestyle choice, which should not be involuntarily paid for by others.

Who are you to say who should be receiving social welfare? as far as I know we live in a democracy here where the government who was voted in - at present stand by the social welfare system in place!

So you think that every person living in Ireland on the dole should be forced to move abroad to find work or otherwise don't get paid any social welfare?

lucky enough your opinion is in the minority and will never become any more than just your opinion.

KELTICKNIGHTT

carpejugulum wrote: »

Because then staying is purely a lifestyle choice, which should not be involuntarily paid for by others.

what a arrogant comment to make

carpejugulum

katy67 wrote: »

ok, carpejugulum

Why don't you give your job to someone that on the dole, who would be happy to take it. You go on the dole, get 188 and see if you can manage it.
You might be happier
I'm sure if you were in Melion's postion, you do the same. Its not a lifestyle choice

I moved to get my current job. He has the same opportunities.

firemansam4 wrote: »

So you think that every person living in Ireland on the dole should be forced to move abroad to find work or otherwise don't get paid any social welfare?

Where did I mention anything about forcing people? You can stay wherever you want but don't expect others to pay for your comfortable lifestyle.
Some need to retrain, some need to move, some need to take jobs they consider beneath them and some need to start a business.
The vast majority of the 250,000 retail and construction jobs is not gonna return.

firemansam4

carpejugulum wrote: »

I moved to get my current job. He has the same opportunities.


Where did I mention anything about forcing people? You can stay wherever you want but don't expect others to pay for your comfortable lifestyle.
Some need to retrain, some need to move, some need to take jobs they consider beneath them and some need to start a business.
The vast majority of the 250,000 retail and construction jobs is not gonna return.

My comfortable lifestyle? And you tell me who is paying for my so called comfortable lifestyle then?
You are very quick to jump to conclusions there?

And there is a big difference between re training or having to take a job beneath you than there is to having to move abroad to get work

Cody Pomeray

skafish wrote: »

I'm paying for their lifestyle. And, in certain cases I could name, I'm paying for them to have a higher standard of living than I can afford for myself and my family.

Take, for example, the woman living 2 doors down from me, living in a house the council are renting for her, claiming SW for herself and her daughter, who got pregnant at 16, and is now claiming her share of the single parent pot. 3 generations in the same house, at least 2 of whom will never contribute to our society.
A new car every 2 years, 2 holidays last year. 3 large flat screen TVs, sky package (you can see them from the road), the works

Meantime, we drive a 9 year old banger (no second car), have one 19in tv
with terrestrial/Saorview only. We went on a holiday in 2007. Last year, we managed a weekend in west Clare, and another in Tipperary (Thanks, Supervalue).

I've worked from the age of 16, part time while in school; paid my way through college (no free fees in my time), and have never been out of work, even though not always in my chosen field.

Jesus get down off that crucifix and let skafish up!

I fail to see what your driving a banger has to do with someone living on €188 a week.

The internet is full of bizarre examples like the ones you've cited of "a new car every 2 years and 2 holidays every year" on social welfare.

Interestingly, those cases are a little hard to come by in the real world. Nobody is going to take the word of someone posting this stuff on the internet. Except, well, people who believe everything they read on the internet.

BuilderPlumber

Melion wrote: »

I fit into neither of those categories im afraid. I didnt go to college, i worked from the time i finished my leaving cert (2001) until late last year. I am not involved in any kind of illegal activites. Sorry to ruin that for you.

No, you clearly fall onto the first category: a person who has either gone to college, did an apprenticeship and/or worked since they finished school or college and then lost their job through no fault of their own.

skafish

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Jesus get down off that crucifix and let skafish up!

I fail to see what your driving a banger has to do with someone living on €188 a week.

The internet is full of bizarre examples like the ones you've cited of "a new car every 2 years and 2 holidays every year" on social welfare.

Interestingly, those cases are a little hard to come by in the real world. Nobody is going to take the word of someone posting this stuff on the internet. Except, well, people who believe everything they read on the internet.

Who on SW in this country has to live on €188 per week? I have never come across anybody in this category.

Cody Pomeray

skafish wrote: »

Who on SW in this country has to live on €188 per week? I have never come across anybody in this category.

Em, people not entitled to rent allowance?

People under the age of 25, who might be living on substantially less?

If you don't know anyone in this situation, maybe your friends are just very fortunate. I've known several in both camps.

Sorry skafish, I hope I'm not distracting you from your crucified passion up there on your moral Calvary.

skafish

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Em, people not entitled to rent allowance?

People under the age of 25, who might be living on substantially less?

If you don't know anyone in this situation, maybe your friends are just very fortunate. I've known several in both camps.

Sorry skafish, I hope I'm not distracting you from your crucified passion up there on your moral Calvary.

No rent allowance? no fuel allowance? no supplementary benefits of any kind?
Your friends seem to be very unfortunate, or very badly informed

Cody Pomeray

skafish wrote: »

No rent allowance? no fuel allowance? no supplementary benefits of any kind?
Your friends seem to be very unfortunate, or very badly informed

In the last year for which there are records, 2011:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/statsg2011.pdf
Number of Jobseekers Allowance Claims: 283,929
Number of Jobseekers Allowance Claims receiving Rent Supplement: 38,496 (14%)

Number of Jobseekers Benefit Claims: 96,044
Number of Jobseekers Benefit Claims receiving Rent Supplement: 6,140 (6%)

According to these statsitics, 86% of jobseekers allowance claimants, and 94% of jobseekers benefits claimants receive no rent supplement payments.

So yeah, quite a lot of people living on €188 per week. My friends might be unfortunate, but they're also in the majority.