The dole

con1421

Hi guys,
I think that is an absolute disgrace that people can stay on the dole for so long. I understand that certain people can't work (disabilities, injuries, young kids etc....) and I understand that people sign on (for a few weeks up until they find a new job) which I find acceptable. But certain lazy people ( in great health) clearly don't want to work.

I know one guy in particular that has not worked for 4 years. He got a job at the local shop after school (never went to college) and then left the job after a few months and never went back to work. Anytime I see him he is waiting in the post office for his dole (my tax money). I was in town one day with him and we walked past Argos who were hiring staff. I told him to send an application in and he said that he would never work there. Last Christmas (during our busy spell) I offered him a job in my bar and his response was "if I get a job I won't be able to get my dole". Other people have tried to motivate this guy to at least go to college but he WON'T DO ANYTHING with his life. It upsets me because I have to work 4 or 5 late night every week and I barely make enough money to keep myself going. But people can get FREE MONEY every single week for doing nothing.

Luckily for me I have worked continuously for 8 years now (in Ireland and the US) since I was 16 and I have never been on the dole. Even when I was in college I never got a grant or any state benifit. If I was to go on the dole when I was younger my parents would just not accept the fact that I would be hanging around the house everyday with nothing to do and thy would insist that I'd do something beneficial with my life.

It's as if people just don't want to work and get the skills that become so important in later life. I mean come on what interviewer is going to take someone seriously if they have a limited CV?It's as if this generation of people don't want to work and as a result become lazy and too dependent on state benefits.

Guys I know that there is a recession on but THERE ARE JOBS OUT THERE if you look. Even sweeping the streets for a living is hugely beneficial. Would you prefer to say you sweep the streets or say that You are on the dole?

I have a big problem with certain people and I just can't accept the fact that this country has become so backwards. I mean if people don't want to work why not go to college? This country is one of the cheapest in the world for education. In the US alone an average course would cost in the thousands of euro and these students end up paying these fees well into their adult life. In Ireland an average degree would cost you 2000ish euro a year.

I just don't like people wasting their life away when there are skills, jobs available. What influence is that going to be on the kids if they see parents never working?

What do you guys think?

Treehousetim

Well, these people are making rational decisions. They are financially punished if they take jobs. The issue is a system that makes that the case.
The mess of this country re social welfare is a result of a system that punishes people who work.

Outkast_IRE

I think a structured decrease in the dole the longer you are on it is the answer.

A reduction every 6 months or so, would pressure long term claimants to find work.

BGozIE

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think a structured decrease in the dole the longer you are on it is the answer.

A reduction every 6 months or so, would pressure long term claimants to find work.

As much as I agree, some people generally may not get a job after 6 months. I've never been on the dole, but I know at its most basic it's 188? How much can you cut that by? You won't be doing much on 188 a week or sub 188.

I find it sad to see people go through life on the dole? But some people have grown up with this below mediocrity lifestyle and know no different.

At the end of the day, I feel, for the vast majority, you get your dole, and you spend it in Ireland so it's back into the system and its just a continuing cycle that actually does play it's part for the economy. That's just my view.

I find the spending on prisoners a much more frustrating waste of money...

Outkast_IRE

BGozIE wrote: »

As much as I agree, some people generally may not get a job after 6 months. I've never been on the dole, but I know at its most basic it's 188? How much can you cut that by? You won't be doing much on 188 a week or sub 188.

I find it sad to see people go through life on the dole? But some people have grown up with this below mediocrity lifestyle and know no different.

At the end of the day, I feel, for the vast majority, you get your dole, and you spend it in Ireland so it's back into the system and its just a continuing cycle that actually does play it's part for the economy. That's just my view.

I find the spending on prisoners a much more frustrating waste of money...

Maybe 6 months is a little harsh on people who have worked a decent length of time full-time and have been let go, but on the other hand it would encourage people to take any wage paying job they can get(temporarily) rather than holding out thinking they are above minimum wage jobs.

tayto lover

There are serial abusers. People who have NEVER worked a day in their lives.
This is wrong. These people should have their dole reduced or be forced to do some kind of work in return i.e. clearing blocked drains in winter, cutting roadside hedges, cleaning graffiti off walls. Anything except being rewarded for nothing at all.

Treehousetim

BGozIE wrote: »

You won't be doing much on 188 a week or sub 188.

if you think most people long term on welfare are only getting 188 euros a week from welfare then I'm afraid, you are missing the point.
Many people have multiple payments- dole, rent allowance (up to a grand a month), medical card, nil taxes, then alot of them are claiming child benefit, carers, domiclery care , CWO payments (for example for communion clothes as seen recently) etc etc . And if you can get yourself on one of the sick schemes, then you are made (much more 'protected' than the dole)
With all respect, you dont seem to understand the way the system works.
Very few will be getting just 188 a week. Wouldn't you think that having almost free accommodation, often close to the city centre, is a major privilege. Most working fools are commuting an hour to and from work every day as they cant afford even to live in Dublin.
Ireland's tax-slaves need to wake up and smell the coffee.

BGozIE

Treehousetim wrote: »

if you think most people long term on welfare are only getting 188 euros a week from welfare then I'm afraid, you are missing the point.
Many people have multiple payments- dole, rent allowance (up to a grand a month), medical card, nil taxes, then alot of them are claiming child benefit, carers, domiclery care , CWO payments (for example for communion clothes as seen recently) etc etc . And if you can get yourself on one of the sick schemes, then you are made (much more 'protected' than the dole)
With all respect, you dont seem to understand the way the system works.
Very few will be getting just 188 a week. Wouldn't you think that having almost free accommodation, often close to the city centre, is a major privilege. Most working fools are commuting an hour to and from work every day as they cant afford even to live in Dublin.
I pray the government will cop on I really do.
Ireland's tax-slaves need to wake up and smell the coffee.

No fair point, I don't really understand the system, I've never had any involvement in it. I'm aware of child benefit, rent allowance etc etc but the OP mentions the dole, that's all I commented on.

The amount of benefits people are getting is ridiculous and a complete joke, completely agree..

I only commented on the dole as the OP does and I'm in no way defending prolonged benefits, I'm in total favour of it being cut depending on length of enrolment. As far as I was aware it was?

skafish

For what its worth, I think the whole SW system needs reform. Things are far to generous for those that just don't want to get off their arses and work. We all know the stories... in My case, I know one factory offering up to 25 jobs, but they cant get staff because they start at 7am and only pay minimum wage.

It's not just the basic of €188 per week, its all the other benifits that go with it that makes staying on the scratch so much more attractive.

A friend of mine owns a small business (less than 20 employees). At their Christmas party, one of his employees told him about a conversation he had had with his cousin (the employees) that day. Both had come to Ireland in the boom. On has been working full time since, most of the time for my friend. His cousin hasn't worked in 5 years. Both living with their partners, both with 2 kids in rented accomodation. The difference in their income is less than €50 per week, when all benifits are taken into account. So the chap that works hard for 40 hours a week is doing so for an effective wage of €50.

No wonder people don't want to work

mlumley

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think a structured decrease in the dole the longer you are on it is the answer.

A reduction every 6 months or so, would pressure long term claimants to find work.

So, what happens to people who live in areas of high unemployment? Do they get punished cos there is no work where they live? Or are they forced to move?

Calgary22

Yea or us apprentices left to rot on the dole because no other help is being given to us.. if i had work i would work no problems at all. so why should my dole be cut because i am on it over 6 months? that would be just plain unfair. fas have an obligation to help me finish my apprenticeships which there not so if they tell me to do a computer course or some other stupid fas course not related to my apprenticeship they will be greeted with a nice no thanks:D

Outkast_IRE

Calgary22 wrote: »

Yea or us apprentices left to rot on the dole because no other help is being given to us.. if i had work i would work no problems at all. so why should my dole be cut because i am on it over 6 months? that would be just plain unfair. fas have an obligation to help me finish my apprenticeships which there not so if they tell me to do a computer course or some other stupid fas course not related to my apprenticeship they will be greeted with a nice no thanks:D

Fas has an obligation to help you complete your off the job training which they do.

Coming from me, someone who finished an apprenticehip during this recession, nobody owes you anything, if you cant manage to secure employment to finish your trade do you think its going to be any better when your qualified ?

The answer is a simple no, you should be looking for further training etc the only person leaving you rot on the dole is yourself. No matter what trade you did, you should of learned skills that will help greatly in a college course .

Treehousetim

Behavior won't change until the system is changed to reward people who work with a noticeable financial reward that makes a difference to their quality of life.
It's as simple as that.

listermint

Its the system thats the problem.

My other halfs place took on a new storeman two weeks ago. Wages are average wages for store persons workload.

The warehouse is pretty small ive been in it a few times no bigger than an aldis warehouse.

Anyway i digress, the Man they took on has a background in storeroom work. But was been unemployed for 18 months. Second day there he comes in and says hes leaving as there was 'too much lifting'.

Now i know full well theyre isnt. Its just general taking in deliveries etc not exceptionally busy.

I just dont get it ? Obviously sitting on your arse is more appealing.

Treehousetim

Yeh he might have had to "get some work" to qualify for the dole once again. Probably he had no intention of staying there. He's right. Any sane person would do the same.

Melion

You say there are jobs out there, but there are also hundreds of people applying for those jobs. I apply for at least 10 jobs EVERY week and have got 1 interview since i started sending out CVs last November.

I will literally do ANYTHING at this stage.

I have a child to pay for, rent, petrol, bills, food etc. Do you think im happy to be getting €188 a week? I have less than €20 for myself a week after i pay for everything else.

Joaquin223

skafish wrote: »

I know one factory offering up to 25 jobs, but they cant get staff because they start at 7am and only pay minimum wage.

Where?

Treehousetim

True welfare careerists will be working several schemes all at once. In my eyes these last 2 posters are not representative of the problematic section of welfare recipients. But people who start out not wanting to be on welfare, will possibly change over time. And as they get more off the state, going back to work becomes less financially viable.

con1421

Melion wrote: »

You say there are jobs out there, but there are also hundreds of people applying for those jobs. I apply for at least 10 jobs EVERY week and have got 1 interview since i started sending out CVs last November.

I will literally do ANYTHING at this stage.

I have a child to pay for, rent, petrol, bills, food etc. Do you think im happy to be getting €188 a week? I have less than €20 for myself a week after i pay for everything else.

So look harder.Do you not use jobs.ie?

Melion

con1421 wrote: »

So look harder.Do you not use jobs.ie?

I am on every job site in Ireland 2-3 times a day, EVERY DAY.

Im sure if i lived in Dublin, Cork or Galway i would have a job in no time. Limerick is the closest city to me and it is next to impossible to find a job.

Calgary22

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Fas has an obligation to help you complete your off the job training which they do.

Coming from me, someone who finished an apprenticehip during this recession, nobody owes you anything, if you cant manage to secure employment to finish your trade do you think its going to be any better when your qualified ?

The answer is a simple no, you should be looking for further training etc the only person leaving you rot on the dole is yourself. No matter what trade you did, you should of learned skills that will help greatly in a college course .

Fas have an obligation to do a lot of things but they don't.

Of course its going to be better if i am qualified as i leave this **** hole of a country with my papers and start my new life anywhere i want. if i leave with my papers i will get 36-40 dollars and hour. if i leave with out them i will get 20 so of course having my papers makes a big difference.

I have no interest in going to college i done 3 college phases for my apprenticeship it was enough. as i said in an earlier post fas or social welfare will be getting the middle fingers if they try to offer me anything that's not related to me finishing my apprenticeship.

I have offered to work for free and be allowed keep my dole. fas and sw turned this down. i then asked and pleaded if i could get in on some jobbridge scheme to do my apprenticeship turned down again. so why should my dole me cut after 6 months when fas clearly have helped me in no way.

Calgary22

Calgary22 wrote: »

Fas have an obligation to do a lot of things but they don't.

Of course its going to be better if i am qualified as i leave this **** hole of a country with my papers and start my new life anywhere i want. if i leave with my papers i will get 36-40 dollars and hour. if i leave with out them i will get 20 so of course having my papers makes a big difference.

I have no interest in going to college i done 3 college phases for my apprenticeship it was enough. as i said in an earlier post fas or social welfare will be getting the middle fingers if they try to offer me anything that's not related to me finishing my apprenticeship.

I have offered to work for free and be allowed keep my dole. fas and sw turned this down. i then asked and pleaded if i could get in on some jobbridge scheme to do my apprenticeship turned down again. so why should my dole me cut after 6 months when fas clearly have helped me in no way.

You done them, did you? Done them real well, I'm sure. A fine example of ENTITLEMENT.

Calgary22

Done what?:D if you mean my college exams yes i did got all credits:D and of course i am entitled to get it i payed tax for over 5 years bout time i got some of it back:D

BGozIE

He's referring to your grammar

Calgary22

wow what a legend:D

KyussBishop

There are somewhere around 26 unemployed people per job vacancy:


If you want to deal with the unemployment issue, you need to create more jobs; if you want to deal with the welfare fraud or dole recipients not taking work, you identify and target them, you don't collectively punish all dole recipients with cuts.


Some of people who present the dole as a significant problem (not all or even most, by any means), don't care about the moral reasons for having it, but actually are using it as a rhetorical tool to argue for (in some cases explicitly, in other cases implicitly, due to the logical conclusion of policies):
1: Slashing of welfare
2: Slashing wages all across the economy
3: Thus, with 1 and 2, general destruction of labour power
4: Decimation of public services in general
5: Regressive adjustments to taxation/cost-of-living (moving the burden of taxes towards lower earners, and increasing their private expenditure as a percentage of income, on living costs)

The end result of these policies is massive social and economic damage; this would result in a massive inflation of peoples debt burdens (as their debt as a proportion of income skyrockets), inflation of their living costs (all imports become way more expensive, as a proportion of income, including electricity/oil), and a reduction in aggregate demand, which just further damages the economy.


Usually these same people decry effective inflation of the cost of goods, devaluation of peoples spending powers, and effective increasing of debts, but in this case they wholeheartedly support it all, even though it just so happens to lead towards an upward concentration of wealth, to those that already have it, and general damage to society (except for those who profit from it; probably why a lot of the people advocating this, work in or are moving towards working in finance).

NIMAN

Anyone who decides to go out and work, irrespective of the job, should never be worse off than someone on benefits. Its this trap that needs removing.

Think about it logically, if you could earn more not working, why would you work or have any interest in looking for a job, unless of course you knew that after a certain time you would lose benefits?

triple-M

Joaquin223 wrote: »

Where?

was about to ask the same thing ;-)

tayto lover

Melion wrote: »

You say there are jobs out there, but there are also hundreds of people applying for those jobs. I apply for at least 10 jobs EVERY week and have got 1 interview since i started sending out CVs last November.

I will literally do ANYTHING at this stage.

I have a child to pay for, rent, petrol, bills, food etc. Do you think im happy to be getting €188 a week? I have less than €20 for myself a week after i pay for everything else.

And that is why you should get more money than the person who has never worked and never will.
Your work history should count and the fact that you are applying for jobs.

Someone who has worked and now find themselves laid off = 220 euro.
Someone who has never worked and doesn't want to = 100 euro.
Net saving to the state = 56 euro per week.

Melion

NIMAN wrote: »

Anyone who decides to go out and work, irrespective of the job, should never be worse off than someone on benefits. Its this trap that needs removing.

Think about it logically, if you could earn more not working, why would you work or have any interest in looking for a job, unless of course you knew that after a certain time you would lose benefits?

I don't know about anyone else on the dole but the worst part is being at home alone all day. That's why I want to get out and work again. I worked for 11 years straight up until last October. I'm bored out of my mind at home every day apart from the days I have my daughter.

I have applied for countless jobs and internships and got no reply from the majority. I wish people wouldn't paint everyone on the dole with the same brush.

NIMAN

Sorry my comments were aimed more at the logic of being able to earn more by not working or losing money by taking a job.

Obviously you want to work, but would you accept a job if it meant you lost money in real terms?