.22lr Ballistic tip ammo

22magtech

lads,

Has any of you ever came across ballistic tip ammo for a .22lr. I have looked online and could not find any. Maybe their is a reason they dont make them?

Cass

It's only a guess, but they are not needed.

Most .22 ammo is subsonic. The hyper velocity stuff still only reaches speeds of 1,500 - 1,600 fps. So when these bullets strike the target they break up "naturally".

The .22 WMRs are middle of the road. However they must be capable of breaking up on impact otherwise we would see them with BTs too.

However with the likes of a .17 hmr you have speeds in excess of 2,500. Such a small projectile traveling so fast needs the tip (but not always) to "initiate" break up. Otherwise the bullet passes straight through.


I'm also guessing it has something to do with the .22 being lead, and the .17 having either a copper layer/jacket. However i'm not overly familiar with ,17 ammo so maybe someone could shine a light on that point.

wildcatares22

cci do a segmented hollow point, it's the closest you'll get to a ballistic tip 22.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0074

yubabill1

CCI Stingers have copper jackets and I think Yellow Jackets have, too. Stingers theoretical mv is approx 1700 fps and all-lead projectile would melt.

I and some others called for 22LR BT ammo over 10 years ago in a shooting forum which eventually became a launch vehicle for the 17HMR. The 17Mach2 was a partial answer.

basically, the reason we don't see 22LR BT ammo is economic - the 17HMR is too profitable and the centrefire 22BT pills are not interchangeable with the 22LR pill. A newbullet head design would be necessary for what manufacturers perceive as a niche market (superfast 22LR ammo).
They are probably right, though I took a long time to accept that!

tomcat220t

I would have taught the ballistic tip .22lr would have limited advantage .
Even a hyper round most .22lr after 70 odd yards is back to subsonic speeds .So most of it flight would be subsonic.
.22lrs are shaped a (non pointed ) aerodynamic design for subsonic flight .
Their center of gravity seems to be weighted more forward for subsonic flight ,aswell .
Regards ,Tomcat.

cookimonster

The .22 WMRs are middleof theroad. However they must be capable of breaking up on impact otherwise we would see them with BTs too.

If Iam not mistaken, I was shooting another fellas wmr and in his box of mixed ammo he had some BT rounds. Green tipped.
Am I mistaken?

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

I would have taught the ballistic tip .22lr would have limited advantage .

Might do. As was said above maybe it's more down to cost.

Even a hyper round most .22lr after 70 odd yards is back to subsonic speeds .So most of it flight would be subsonic.

With an average MV of 1,600fps it would be closer to 120-135 yards before it becomes subsonic.

cookimonster wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, I was shooting another fellas wmr and in his box of mixed ammo he had some BT rounds. Green tipped.
Am I mistaken?

No idea lad. Don't shoot a .22wmr. As i said above i was hoping someone with a .17 or .22wmr could shed some light on it. No point in me regurgitating something i read or found on Google.

Cass

BTW when i wrote this:

Cass wrote: »

The .22 WMRs are middle of the road. However they must be capable of breaking up on impact otherwise we would see them with BTs too..

It was more of a "am i right" or an assumption. There is no emoticon for the confused/uncertain look on my face.

tomcat220t

Cass wrote: »

Might do. As was said above maybe it's more down to cost.

With an average MV of 1,600fps it would be closer to 120-135 yards before it becomes subsonic.

No idea lad. Don't shoot a .22wmr. As i said above i was hoping someone with a .17 or .22wmr could shed some light on it. No point in me regurgitating something i read or found on Google.

Hi Cass, i agree that some may become subsonic further down range but the ..CCI mini mag approx , 25-50 yards
..CCI velocitor approx, 80 yards ..CCI stinger approx 110 yards .
All based on factory ADVERTISED M/V and B/C .
I know there are faster ADVERTISED .22lr rounds but imo a .22lr are best suited to subsonic speeds .
Target .22lr rounds are not pointed or ballistic tipped for accuracy reasons .
Regards ,Tomcat.

Cass

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Cass, i agree that some may become subsonic further down range but the ..CCI mini mag approx , 25-50 yards
..CCI velocitor approx, 80 yards ..CCI stinger approx 110 yards .
All based on factory ADVERTISED M/V and B/C .

I was basing my answer of a BC of 0.145 (average for a 40gr), and MV of 1,600fps. So slower rounds would definitely be subsonic at shorter ranges, and if the manufacturer says 80-110 then i'd be inclined to agree with them over a ballistic calculator.

I know there are faster ADVERTISED .22lr rounds but imo a .22lr are best suited to subsonic speeds

Couldn't agree more. I have a box or twwo of Stingers in the press. Have had them for some time now. I might fire 15-20 in a year. I much prefer the Lapua, and Eley subs. Anything that needs a longer reaching/super sonic round i use the .243 or stalk up. Of course there is always the option of just not taking the shot. As i tell me mate (a bit trigger happy) you don't need to fire at everything.

Target .22lr rounds are not pointed or ballistic tipped for accuracy reasons .
Regards ,Tomcat.

Also very true. Had this debate with a lad before about the eley match. I still maintain it's a product of manufacturing (rather than purposely designed) that it has a "tip", but by no means is it pointed.

tomcat220t

Hi Cass,what 40gr .22lr runs 1600fps..not saying it does not exist, but sounds rare ?

Regards ,Tomcat

Cass

No, you're right. My mistake. So used to subs that i put 40gr into the BC.

Just checked the Stinger box, and it's 32gr which would have an effect on speed so your original estimates are right. 80 yards or so. However the BC still says over 125 yards until it is sub sonic even with the new figures. However as said above in these matters i'd listen to the manufacturer over some BC.

tomcat220t

Cass wrote: »

No, you're right. My mistake. So used to subs that i put 40gr into the BC.

Just checked the Stinger box, and it's 32gr which would have an effect on speed so your original estimates are right. 80 yards or so. However the BC still says over 125 yards until it is sub sonic even with the new figures. However as said above in these matters i'd listen to the manufacturer over some BC.

Hi Cass,is it the cci stinger that is 125 yards untill subsonic ?
Regards ,Tomcat.

Cass

According to the ballistic calculator.

On the website it says 80 yards (actually it says 75 yards, but it's just over at that distance)

tomcat220t

Cass wrote: »

According to the ballistic calculator.

On the website it says 80 yards (actually it says 75 yards, but it's just over at that distance)

Hi Class ,thats why i high lighted ADVERTISED M/V & B/C on the hyper .22lr ammo .Real world figures were different last time i chronograph cci stingers .
Either way for years now only ever feed my .22lr, subs .
Interesting topic
Regards ,Tomcat.

Cass

I'll be honest i rarely use Stingers so never chrono'd them. Same as yourself i use, almost exclusively, subs. The .22 is great for short ranges, and plinking so that's what i use it for.

Longer shots, irrespective of ability of me or the rifle, i use the .243. Might be "overkill" on some animals, but i have much more faith in it than whether a .22 can do the job.

I'd love to see some .22 rounds actually chrono'd to see what their actual speeds are against what the stated speeds say. On a slightly related topic i done this for the ,308 when i used Superperformance. They stated 3,000fps on the box. I was checking some target rounds, and decided to chrono them through the Remmy. As the ammo was checked with 24" barreled rifle i though it should be pretty close.

I got speeds between 3187 to 3208fps. That's 200fps over the stated speed on the box, and they usually exaggerate the speeds when advertising/selling them.

So would be good to see if the 1600fps of the Stingers is actually being achieved and then what speeds the subs are doing. Most, i think, are rated for 1066 - 1100.

yubabill1

The Stingers suffer from Doppler interference effects as they approach sonic speeds around the 80 yd mark, which decreases accuracy quite a bit.
That's probably why the mfg errs on the side of caution with its figures.

Subsonics actually are more accurate at longer range than Stingers! Holdover/ wind drift is the price to pay.

This was the original argument for BT 22LR in stinger case - try to extend its range to 100yds.:pac:

extremetaz

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi Cass,what 40gr .22lr runs 1600fps..not saying it does not exist, but sounds rare ?

yeah, velocitor is the fastest I'm aware of and it advertises ~1430.


Regardless I'd stick with the subs and just aim a little higher.

tomcat220t

yubabill1 wrote: »

The Stingers suffer from Doppler interference effects as they approach sonic speeds around the 80 yd mark, which decreases accuracy quite a bit.
That's probably why the mfg errs on the side of caution with its figures.

Subsonics actually are more accurate at longer range than Stingers! Holdover/ wind drift is the price to pay.

This was the original argument for BT 22LR in stinger case - try to extend its range to 100yds.:pac:

Hi yubabill,also take into account that the .22lr is a heeled round with the head been the dia as the outside of the case as apposed to nearly all other rounds in existence the head is based in the inside dia. of the case/brass.
The cci stinger are not very accurate when compaired to subsonic round even before it hits its subsonic barrier at approx 75 yards .
Ballistic tip .22lrs and just not going to work with the shape and limited speed of the .22lr rounds ,imo.
Regards ,Tomcat .

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Subsonics actually are more accurate at longer range than Stingers! Holdover/ wind drift is the price to pay.

Counter-intuitively, subsonic rounds suffer less from wind drift than supersonic rounds (the whole point of supersonic .22lr hunting ammo is not increased accuracy, but having more kinetic energy to dump when the round hits the quarry).

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Counter-intuitively, subsonic rounds suffer less from wind drift than supersonic rounds (the whole point of supersonic .22lr hunting ammo is not increased accuracy, but having more kinetic energy to dump when the round hits the quarry).

Have used both extensively. Never had a problem with stinger wind drift, used them in all sorts of conditions.

Found trajectory the major problem with subs, but only used them on calm days.

Maybe I missed something: Did not trust subs in wind.

The Stingers certainly kill instantly out to 120 yds IMHO, while the subs need precision to kill reliably at longer range and I would put 120yds or so as a max for them under field conditions. I'm sure people have killed at longer ranges using subs, but you have to admit, these are the exceptions.

Each have their own idiosyncrasies. personally, I got better results with 22LR RWS High Velocity HP's until they stopped selling them. Don't know what velocity - too long ago - but pretty standard load and just slightly faster than standard velocity at the time (12-1300 fps).
Today's Velocitors would be my choice if I was going with 22LR, but that's just a personal choice.

extremetaz

Just had a look on the CCI website there and got a few stats from there stuff.

Subs are generally a 40gr @ 1040fps --> ~95ft.lbs
Mini-Mag HVs are a 40gr @ 1235 --> ~135ft.lbs
Velocitors are a 40gr @ 1435 --> ~183ft.lb
Stingers are a 32gr @ 1640 --> ~192ft.lb***

So you can see fairly readily from the above that it shouldn't be any surprise that anything you can hit with the faster rounds will drop like a rock relative to hitting it with the subs.

...and I suppose that the bottom line is that whilst we say the subs are more accurate than the HV (and they are), we tend to be talking in match grade terms and not field performance terms. Realistically, for field use I suppose if it holds the 8 ring comfortably at 50m it's good enough to do the job.


***I was surprised by this one - I thought the velocitors were the fastest round out there but sure enough, there's the Stingers at 1640.

yubabill1

just some more things and then I won't bore you anymore on this:

1 Stingers have a longer cas than other 22LR loads, so they don,t always function well in semi-auto actions

2 the Velocitors don't seem to get buffeted around as much as the Stingers at 80yds or so IMHO. Possibly due to the weight difference.

3 They used to claim the Stingers were around 1700fps in the old days, because I remember they were supposedly faster than the 29gr Yellow Jackets (which I never really took to - but some guys had great faith in them). Somebody probably called their bluff.

4 like I said, would go Velocitor today.

clivej

I read that the wind will effect a 32gr stinger twice as much as a 40gr sub.

And that the 22lr sub will still penetrate 1/2" of plywood at 300 yards and so will still kill you or I at that range.


Food for Thought

yubabill1

clivej wrote: »

I read that the wind will effect a 32gr stinger twice as much as a 40gr sub.

And that the 22lr sub will still penetrate 1/2" of plywood at 300 yards and so will still kill you or I at that range.

I read that too, long time ago. Could never figure it out - standard velocity loads always got blown around by wind, but stingers were mostly unaffected at hunting ranges (<80yds). My thinking was - if standard velocity gets blown around, then subs will be even more so - and I proved that to myself in the field: I used to shoot on the Curragh plains before they made them a conservation area, 10,000 acres without a hedge becomes pretty windy.

Cass

I read an article a while ago (relating to centrefire but it's relevant here) where a top shooter in America with a physics/mathematical background explained the issue when bullets slowed from super sonic speeds to sub sonic speeds.

He went on (and i won't pretend to understand the math) to say that at speeds over 1,330 fps the bullet was firmly in super sonic speeds, and traveling well. However when the bullet slowed between from 1,310 down to 1,160 fps it entered the trans-sonic phase of it's plight. It was at this point he said the bullet was at it';s most inaccurate due to the forces exerted on it.

Some bullets would "wobble" on the tip, others via the base of the bullet. Then when the bullet passed through into the sub sonic phase the flight path/trajectory stabilised again (not instantly obviously).

So considering .22 bullets with supersonic speeds will slow rapidly, and within 30-50 yards they are already within this trans-sonic speed it could account for or be an explanation for the inherent inaccuracy of these bullets.

Another thing (and this is pure speculation on my behalf) you have a lighter bullet, traveling at very high speeds in barrels that can be from 1:16 - 1:20 twist rates. IOW improper match between bullet/round, and twist rate of the rifle. So the aerodynamics & ballistics of the subsonic rounds (much better in a .22), would be vastly better than those of the stingers, velocitors, yelow jackets, etc.


This is all about the precision & accuracy you normally find on a range. So while it may not be important from a hunting point of view i still like to know my rifle is firing with the precision of a target rifle no matter where is hot.

tomcat220t

A bullets shape designed for subsonic speeds are a different shape to a bullet designed for supersonic speeds .
Its down to aerodynamics .Airbus A380 rounded, blunt nose(subsonic)
. Eurofighter Typhoon,pointed nose(supersonic)
Also the center of gravity is usually more towards the front of the bullet for subsonic designed rounds.
Thats the main reason why .22lr bullets are not ballistic tipped or pointed .
Regards ,Tomcat.

Vegeta

The lads are spot on about the bullet design moving the center of gravity forward closer to the center of pressure. More stable when subsonic.

I thought planes had various shaped noses for trying to deal with air pressure and heat generation/dissipation though?

Anyway as to the point about wind drift and sub sonic bullets. Yes subsonic bullets have lower drag coefficients and therefore will be affected by wind less. They are slower though and under the influence of the wind for longer. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

dev110

Stumbled across this youtube clip that some here might find interesting.

They are doing penetration tests with CCI Velocitor, Segmented HP, Mini Mag and Subs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdNkfTS0lOQ

yubabill1

dev110 wrote: »

Stumbled across this youtube clip that some here might find interesting.

They are doing penetration tests with CCI Velocitor, Segmented HP, Mini Mag and Subs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdNkfTS0lOQ

The engineer guy in the vid can't explain why the 1200fps ammo is more accurate then the (slightly faster) standard velocity stuff.

back in the old days 12oo fps was standard velocity. Obviously, as it's just subsonic, it will not experience the trans-sonic Doppler interference. QED.

I don't count 0.798" @ 100yds as spectacular accuracy, though. Of course, if I could shoot it all day long....

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

.......back in the old days 12oo fps was standard velocity. Obviously, as it's just subsonic, ....

I was always under the impression that 1,120 fps at sea level is sub sonic.

tomcat220t

.22LR Rimfire Ammo Comparison Test from AccurateReloading.com

Tests 55 Types of .22LR Ammo with Bleiker Rifle
The Administrator of the AccurateReloading.com Forum recently completed a massive .22LR Rimfire Ammunition Testing Project. Some 55 different types of ammo were tested, using a highly-accurate Swiss-made Bleiker rifle, with a 2-stage trigger. All ammo varieties were tested at 50 yards, 75 yards, and 100 yards, shooting five, 5-shot groups at each distance. The results are fascinating to say the least. The tester observed: “I got some amazing groups, and some which are, frankly, are absurdly bad! This has re-enforced what I had experienced with 22 ammo in the past — that is being consistently inconsistent.”

Link to full article with full results.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I was always under the impression that 1,120 fps at sea level is sub sonic.

I live at 500 ft above and I guesstimate it's around 1200 for me. Don't even know what the equation is anymore.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

I live at 500 ft above and I guesstimate it's around 1200 for me. Don't even know what the equation is anymore.

I always thought it was dependent on temperature rather than altitude...

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

I always thought it was dependent on temperature rather than altitude...

Ok I'll google it.
Remember doing it in the '80's. (Seems like I did everything in the @80's!)

yubabill1

Well, looks like either my memory is fading or I miscalculated back in the day!

maybe both.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elevation-speed-sound-air-d_1534.html

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

I always thought it was dependent on temperature rather than altitude...

They are linked. The higher you are the colder it is, the lower the air pressure, the less resistance a bullet has.

yubabill1 wrote: »

Well, looks like either my memory is fading or I miscalculated back in the day!

Good chart.

Back when we first got reloading, and one of our American F-Class friends told us of his range sitting at over 6,200 HASL i done some chekcing, and found to reach the same speeds with my 155.5 gr bullet load i needed less propellant it got me thinking. So i done some "research", and found the same.

It's also the reason why a good ballistic calculator will take HASL into the equation.

extremetaz

Sparks wrote: »

I always thought it was dependent on temperature rather than altitude...

yubabill1 wrote: »

Well, looks like either my memory is fading or I miscalculated back in the day!

maybe both.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elevation-speed-sound-air-d_1534.html

mneh - that list is indicative but still oversimplistic if you want to be precise about things.

It's air density (or density of any medium for that matter) which primarily dictates the propagation speed (stiffness of the medium also has a proportional impact aswell, but that's pretty constant for gases).

In any case, as pressure is a function of both alititude and temperature, you're both correct.

..adding a further layer of convolution though - individual frequencies do not propagate at the same speed either so what you get in any case is an average for the audible frequency range.

yubabill1

It's very hard to argue with the Laws of Physics.

Just bugs me that I "misremembered" it.

extremetaz

Cass wrote: »

They are linked. The higher you are the colder it is, the lower the air pressure, the less resistance a bullet has.

strictly speaking that's the wrong way around (although I'm really just splitting hairs here ) but the reason it's colder is because the air pressure is lower.

Lower density -> greater intermolecular spacing -> greater specific heat capacity -> more heat absoption -> bbbbbrrrrrrr....

and in relation to the speed of sound, this actually reduces it (which I find a little counterintuitive but there ya go).

Cass

extremetaz wrote: »

strictly speaking that's the wrong way around (although I'm really just splitting hairs here ) ...........

As you done yourself substitute the comma with the word because.

"The higher you go, the colder it is because the air pressure is lower."

So it's right, just the grammar is poor. And yes, you are splitting hairs.













/Fecking pedantic Pats. .

extremetaz

Cass wrote: »

/Fecking pedantic Pats. .

:D

In my defense I've been stuck on some rather "technical" problems in work for the last few days - ya know the kind where it's tiny little changes that make the difference?..

...so my pedantry (although, ever present) is rather elevated even by my own standards at the moment.

anglerscurse

CCi stingers Silver casing with copper head great little bullet

anglerscurse

anglerscurse wrote: »

CCi stingers Silver casing with copper head great little bullet

Ballistic tipped .22 LR manufactured in a magnum bullet only