Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

Nodin

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Entitlements, entitlements, entitlements.

Change policy so they are no longer entitled. Its that simple. Give them an option of a waterproof tent or a flight home.

So we should act in a way that would be condemned internationally, because you don't like foriegners. A well thought out policy.

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

What percentage of your 22,140 posts are questions. Every time i see your name you are questioning people and offering nothing in return.

Ye know where the report button is.

ResearchWill

WayneMolloy wrote: »

The thread title - Should Ireland follow suit.

The brits are implementing these policies. We already have parts of Dublin were the majority of those on the housing list are foreign nationals - ranging from 70 plus different countries. Only 26 other member states whose citizens we are legally obliged to provide assistance too

Now, when the British start clamping down on welfare tourists - where do you think they will chance their arm next?

There are no welfare tourists, its political bull crap. The Tories need to react to the UKIP and the NF as well as other parties. When pushed to back up the claims they make they can't. I have provided the figures over and over again, legal immigration is very controlled in this country. 1/3 of immigrants are from outside EU most of them work in good paying jobs. It is difficult to get a working permission in ireland at the moment. Asylum applications way down on 2005 peak. So no Ireland does not need to do much if anything because there is no serious problem.

SWL

ResearchWill wrote: »

A couple of differences 1 Sweden had a shorter boom, 2 Sweden had its own currency 3 Sweden lost its battle to keep its currency pegged. By floating free Sweden became instantly cheaper to do business. And yes Sweden did not have two hits in one it did not have to deal with a banking crises and a large annual deficit.

But as so so expertly explained the crises in Sweden can you now point out where I ridiculed you.

The crises in Sweden is hardly private, the idea to cover all bank debt in Ireland came from the Swedish model, but Ireland didn't do it correctly, so now the innocent Irish citizen has to pay up for the next 60 years. Having your own currency was of great help, the Euro has Ireland up the kyber.

The Swedish asset bubble has been used as a case study in a number of text book so too has Amercia and of course Japan, all countires followed an identical path and Ireland was going to go the same way. See Wachter and Herring 1999, no doubt Ireland will be used in the next edition.

ResearchWill

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Entitlements, entitlements, entitlements.

Change policy so they are no longer entitled. Its that simple. Give them an option of a waterproof tent or a flight home.

So if a person works here, pays taxes for say 10 years and is made redundant, because he is not born here he should be given a tent or a flight home.

WayneMolloy

Nodin wrote: »

So we should act in a way that would be condemned internationally, because you don't like foriegners. A well thought out policy.

We would be condemned internationally for not providing non EU citizens with free gaffs?

Are you taking the piss here?

Name one non EU country where an Irish person can move to for a year or two and avail of social housing. Just one.

woodoo

WayneMolloy wrote: »

We would be condemned internationally for not providing non EU citizens with free gaffs?

Are you taking the piss here?

Name one non EU country where an Irish person can move to for a year or two and avail of social housing. Just one.

The UK are thinking on bringing in a rule that you can't apply for social housing until you have been in the country for 5 years. I hope we do the same here and fast.

ResearchWill

SWL wrote: »

The crises in Sweden is hardly private, the idea to cover all bank debt in Ireland came from the Swedish model, but Ireland didn't do it correctly, so now the innocent Irish citizen has to pay up for the next 60 years. Having your own currency was of great help, the Euro has Ireland up the kyber.

The Swedish asset bubble has been used as a case study in a number of text book so too has Amercia and of course Japan, all countires followed an identical path and Ireland was going to go the same way. See Wachter and Herring 2002, no doubt Ireland will be used in the next edition.

While I find the subject of Sweden interesting, you still have not backed up your statement "Would you be as quick at your attempts to ridicule me if I agreed with your position, pretty much sums a lot of so called tolerant types like you up"

Can you for the third time of asking point out where I ridiculed you.

Nodin

WayneMolloy wrote: »

We would be condemned internationally for not providing non EU citizens with free gaffs?

Are you taking the piss here?

.........

Non-EU citizens generally can't just move here and get "free gaffs". This has been explained to you before, but it doesn't seem to register.

Also

The debate over immigration in Britain has taken a worrying turn and is fuelling stereotypes and hostility towards migrants, Europe's human rights watchdog has warned.

He also warned that British government moves to restrict the access of new European migrants to social security, housing and social security, will only increase their social exclusion, fuel anti-immigration rhetoric and create even more social problems in the long run.

Muiznieks told the Guardian: "The UK debate has taken a worrying turn as it depicts lower-skilled migrants as dangerous foreigners coming to steal jobs, lower salaries and spoil the health system.

"A stigma is put on Bulgarian and Romanian citizens just because of their origin. This is unacceptable because a state cannot treat Bulgarian and Romanian citizens differently from other EU citizens. They need to be treated as everyone else, not on the basis of assumptions or generalisations about their ethnic origin," said Muiznieks, a Latvian politician and human rights activist.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/29/eu-watchdog-britain-shameful-rhetoric-migrants

WayneMolloy

ResearchWill wrote: »

There are no welfare tourists, its political bull crap. The Tories need to react to the UKIP and the NF as well as other parties. When pushed to back up the claims they make they can't. I have provided the figures over and over again, legal immigration is very controlled in this country. 1/3 of immigrants are from outside EU most of them work in good paying jobs. It is difficult to get a working permission in ireland at the moment. Asylum applications way down on 2005 peak. So no Ireland does not need to do much if anything because there is no serious problem.

20-25 per of the oft lauded excellent eastern european workers are on the dole.

Nearly 40 percent of our largest african minority are on the dole.

70 different nationalities on the fingal county council housing list.

Nearly 35 percent of those in receipt allowance, are foreign nationals.

All this in a bankrupt, windswept rock off the west of europe.

And still people claim its not an issue. The figures are eye watering. Its costing the state billions.

greendom

WayneMolloy wrote: »

The thread title - Should Ireland follow suit.

The brits are implementing these policies. We already have parts of Dublin were the majority of those on the housing list are foreign nationals - ranging from 70 plus different countries. Only 26 other member states whose citizens we are legally obliged to provide assistance too

Now, when the British start clamping down on welfare tourists - where do you think they will chance their arm next?

Welfare tourist ? Does such a thing actually exist? In my experience, people who are prepared to leave their homes do so to improve themselves and give a better life for their families. They come to work. How many of those 70 nationalities are welfare tourists ?

ResearchWill

WayneMolloy wrote: »

20-25 per of the oft lauded excellent eastern european workers are on the dole.

Nearly 40 percent of our largest african minority are on the dole.

70 different nationalities on the fingal county council housing list.

Nearly 35 percent of those in receipt allowance, are foreign nationals.

All this in a bankrupt, windswept rock off the west of europe.

And still people claim its not an issue. The figures are eye watering. Its costing the state billions.

What is the exact cost in social welfare for all non Irish, then what is the exact income tax USC and PRSI for all non irish. When you have verified figures I will engage.

Also if you could have the figure for those who are claiming welfare who never contributed.

WayneMolloy

Nodin wrote: »

Non-EU citizens generally can't just move here and get "free gaffs". This has been explained to you before, but it doesn't seem to register.

Also

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/29/eu-watchdog-britain-shameful-rhetoric-migrants

Romania and Bulgaria should offer better social protections to their own citizens. It is not the U.K. or Ireland's responsibility to house and supply them with welfare.

They should have never been admitted to the EU in the first place.

johnty56

ResearchWill wrote: »

There are no welfare tourists, its political bull crap. The Tories need to react to the UKIP and the NF as well as other parties. When pushed to back up the claims they make they can't. I have provided the figures over and over again, legal immigration is very controlled in this country. 1/3 of immigrants are from outside EU most of them work in good paying jobs. It is difficult to get a working permission in ireland at the moment. Asylum applications way down on 2005 peak. So no Ireland does not need to do much if anything because there is no serious problem.[/QUOT

I'm just curious.. your use of English is unusual.. are you Irish or did you spend alot of time outside the country?

woodoo

WayneMolloy wrote: »

20-25 per of the oft lauded excellent eastern european workers are on the dole.

Nearly 40 percent of our largest african minority are on the dole.

70 different nationalities on the fingal county council housing list.

Nearly 35 percent of those in receipt allowance, are foreign nationals.

All this in a bankrupt, windswept rock off the west of europe.

And still people claim its not an issue. The figures are eye watering. Its costing the state billions.

But if you bring it up you are racist.

Nodin

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Romania and Bulgaria should offer better social protections to their own citizens. It is not the U.K. or Ireland's responsibility to house and supply them with welfare.

They should have never been admitted to the EU in the first place.

They aren't allowed come here and just claim, so I fail to see your point.

WayneMolloy

greendom wrote: »

Welfare tourist ? Does such a thing actually exist? In my experience, people who are prepared to leave their homes do so to improve themselves and give a better life for their families. They come to work. How many of those 70 nationalities are welfare tourists ?

Them all.

If you come to another country, find some employment and pay your way. If you find yourself likely to become a burden on the state, then its time to book a flight home.

The same can be said for the Irish in Canada and Australia.

ResearchWill

johnty56 wrote: »

ResearchWill wrote: »

There are no welfare tourists, its political bull crap. The Tories need to react to the UKIP and the NF as well as other parties. When pushed to back up the claims they make they can't. I have provided the figures over and over again, legal immigration is very controlled in this country. 1/3 of immigrants are from outside EU most of them work in good paying jobs. It is difficult to get a working permission in ireland at the moment. Asylum applications way down on 2005 peak. So no Ireland does not need to do much if anything because there is no serious problem.[/QUOT

I'm just curious.. your use of English is unusual.. are you Irish or did you spend alot of time outside the country?

In what way is it unusual. Can you point out why you find my English unusual.

johnty56

ResearchWill wrote: »

johnty56 wrote: »

In what way is it unusual. Can you point out why you find my English unusual.

To be honest I'm not really interested in this debate.. but just little things within it. The expression you used earlier about it being difficult to get " a permission to work" in Ireland was rather unusual, too lazy to go back through the whole thread and pick out more, though there were several... its not important, I'm just nosy

SWL

ResearchWill wrote: »

While I find the subject of Sweden interesting, you still have not backed up your statement "Would you be as quick at your attempts to ridicule me if I agreed with your position, pretty much sums a lot of so called tolerant types like you up"

Can you for the third time of asking point out where I ridiculed you.

You did attempt to ridicule me by highlighting the fact I am a not Irish and as such couldn't or possible shouldn't agree with the OP about the levels of dependency by non nationals on social services.

You then gave a lot of stats from Sweden highlighting the numbers of immigrants they take in.

The tide is turning in Sweden too; Ireland is a sovereign country and should make decisions based on what is good for its citizens not trying to replicate what another country does with non nationals.

Economically right now Ireland is like a short arsed man trying to be 6'6'' yet it appears happy to support thousand of non nationals on the dole.

Crazy stuff

cloudybins

johnty56 wrote: »

ResearchWill wrote: »

To be honest I'm not really interested in this debate.. but just little things within it. The expression you used earlier about it being difficult to get " a permission to work" in Ireland was rather unusual, too lazy to go back through the whole thread and pick out more, though there were several... its not important, I'm just nosy

:pac: only the queens English please on boards.ie

ResearchWill

SWL wrote: »

You did attempt to ridicule me by highlighting the fact I am a not Irish and as such couldn't or possible shouldn't agree with the OP about the levels of dependency by non nationals on social services.

You then gave a lot of stats from Sweden highlighting the numbers of immigrants they take in.

The tide is turning in Sweden too; Ireland is a sovereign country and should make decisions based on what is good for its citizens not trying to replicate what another country does with non nationals.

Economically right now Ireland is like a short arsed man trying to be 6'6'' yet it appears happy to support thousand of non nationals on the dole.

Crazy stuff

I did not ridicule you I pointed out the irony of a person who has enjoyed immigration turning around and knocking immigration. I then in response to your statements about Sweden doing better in the immigration area pointed out that Sweden had a large immigrant community. Where is that ridicule. I never said you had no right to you views, I never said either you are your views are stupid. So I would again ask you to show ridicule. Challenging a person views is debate, which I have done. No where did I ridicule you.

greendom

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Them all.

If you come to another country, find some employment and pay your way. If you find yourself likely to become a burden on the state, then its time to book a flight home.

The same can be said for the Irish in Canada and Australia.

No surely the meaning of welfare tourist is someone who arrives in another country with the sole intention of living off welfare. I don't think there are many people who would bother to emigrate to another country to do such a thing. Maybe you have evidence to the contrary though ?

johnty56

cloudybins wrote: »

johnty56 wrote: »

:pac: only the queens English please on boards.ie

Well to be honest I have some interest in the area of linguistics and that particular poster uses syntax in places that is redolent of an non native English speaker, hence the question. I really couldn't care less, I was just wondering if I was indeed correct in my assumptions.

WayneMolloy

SWL wrote: »

You did attempt to ridicule me by highlighting the fact I am a not Irish and as such couldn't or possible shouldn't agree with the OP about the levels of dependency by non nationals on social services.

You then gave a lot of stats from Sweden highlighting the numbers of immigrants they take in.

The tide is turning in Sweden too; Ireland is a sovereign country and should make decisions based on what is good for its citizens not trying to replicate what another country does with non nationals.

Economically right now Ireland is like a short arsed man trying to be 6'6'' yet it appears happy to support thousand of non nationals on the dole.

Crazy stuff

Our politicans were eating at the big table during the boom years and boy didnt they just let the world know. "Richest country in the world", "best small country to do business in", "we will need 100, 000 immigrants every year to fill our labour shortages" and other bollocks was spouted. The country is going to hell in a handcart and they still refuse to debate the issue, never mind addressing it.

Look at posters on this thread. Asking whats the problem. 70 different nationalities on fingals housing list and they think its perfectly normal.

"Being Irish in Ireland should entitle you to jack sh*t" being my particular favourite. I am going to think of that one of the days when I am coming home on the bus on break my bollocks laughing. I just hope the bus isnt full, or il get some odd glances.

ResearchWill

johnty56 wrote: »

ResearchWill wrote: »

To be honest I'm not really interested in this debate.. but just little things within it. The expression you used earlier about it being difficult to get " a permission to work" in Ireland was rather unusual, too lazy to go back through the whole thread and pick out more, though there were several... its not important, I'm just nosy

"A permission to work" or a "working permission" are terms used in immigration law. Non Irish or non EU citizens need a permission stamped in there passport to remain in the country. Some of those permission do not allow work or very limited work rights. Stamp 1 can only work if you have a work permit, stamp 2 student permission limited right to work stamp 3 family member of a person with a working permission no right to work and stamp 4 only limitation is as to time.

So I was just using the correct legal term.

ResearchWill

johnty56 wrote: »

cloudybins wrote: »

Well to be honest I have some interest in the area of linguistics and that particular poster uses syntax in places that is redolent of an non native English speaker, hence the question. I really couldn't care less, I was just wondering if I was indeed correct in my assumptions.

No your assumptions are incorrect, I was born and raised in Ireland with Irish surnames going back generations, so you are off base.

WayneMolloy

greendom wrote: »

No surely the meaning of welfare tourist is someone who arrives in another country with the sole intention of living off welfare. I don't think there are many people who would bother to emigrate to another country to do such a thing. Maybe you have evidence to the contrary though ?

I do, yeah. Seventy different nationalities on fingal county councils housing list.

You may think this perfectly fine and dandy - I dont. If I was in country x and found that things were getting tight, id spend another month searching for a better paying position. If I had no joy, id be logging onto aerlingus and booking a flight home. I wouldnt be applying for a freebie, thats for sure.

SWL

ResearchWill wrote: »

I did not ridicule you I pointed out the irony of a person who has enjoyed immigration turning around and knocking immigration. I then in response to your statements about Sweden doing better in the immigration area pointed out that Sweden had a large immigrant community. Where is that ridicule. I never said you had no right to you views, I never said either you are your views are stupid. So I would again ask you to show ridicule. Challenging a person views is debate, which I have done. No where did I ridicule you.

I can enjoy immigration in Ireland becasue if I wish I can get an Irish passport.

More importantly how many Swedes are on the Fingal Housing list? remember there are over 70 nations represented.

How many Swedes are on the dole?

How many Swedes are in prision in Ireland?

I can comment on immigration because I or my fellow country men don't have our hands out seeking help from a State that many foreign nationals including EU couldn't find on a map before turning up here and staying here work or no work.

The answer is a zero, nada, none

johnty56

Spot on... Its been a very boring evening. I'm off to bed now, hopefully to have interesting dreams!