Sex Education

Lisha

I've no objection to kids being told in great detail about sex, positions, how to avoid sti/std, birth control, everything.
But they also need to be told in the same level of detail about the psychological impact sex does have on our emotions.
They need to be made aware that yes sex is a wonderful recreational activity but human emotions need to be highly respected.
Person a in a sexual partnership needs to consider and respect person b emotional well being and vice versa.
It goes without saying that the both parties must be sober and awake enough to consent. Person a should never use person b unreturned affection to procure sex.

Sex is wonderful both as a recreation and as part of a partnership.
It should not be cheapened as an expectation of a night out.

So I want our kids to know they can say ''yes' or 'no' depending on what's right for them.

Addle

The big fear that was instilled in us was TSS, not pregnancy!

Scarinae

The link to the original article keeps going down, so I've copied and pasted it here, I hope that's ok? I usually think it's best to read the original piece rather than just the reactions - from reading from of the coverage in newspapers you'd think that Spunout was just telling teenagers to 'go and have threesomes, they're great'

Threesomes
If you are to take part in a threesome, make sure it's a safe experience.

Remember that the age of sexual consent in the Republic of Ireland is 17 and the age of sexual consent in Northern Ireland is 16.

If you are to take part in a threesome, make sure it a safe experience for everyone involved and that contraception and respect are both part of the experience.

What is a threesome?

A threesome involves getting sexually intimate with two people rather than just one person. Threesomes can involve any combination of guys and gals. They often consist of a couple experimenting with another person outside of their relationship. Some people find threesomes to be enjoyable, for others it is an uncomfortable or upsetting experience.

You may feel under pressure by your partner to have a threesome because your other half has seen them on porn, films, or television.

However, you should never feel pressured into doing something that you don’t want to do.

Top tips for keeping it safe and enjoyable

• Keep it safe. Yeah, yeah, you’ve heard it all before, but seriously keep yourself protected. Like every sexual encounter it is important that you practice safe sex, and that means using contraception, even during oral sex. Remember that condoms are the only form of contraception that protects you against both pregnancy and STI’s.
  
• Do be aware that you’ll need to change condoms if you are switching partners during the threesome. Otherwise you could end up with some pretty nasty infections.
  
• Only do it if you want to do it. Not ‘cause you want to keep your girl or guy happy or because other people say it would be great craic. You do not love your partner any less because you do not want a threesome.
  
• Respect your partner. If your partner tells you that they want things a certain way, don’t ignore it during the threesome. That’s pretty uncool and will likely affect your relationship too.
  
• Think through reasons why you want a threesome. You don’t want to end up regretting it!
  
• Be clear about why you are doing this. Are you looking to spice up your sex life? Or is this a last ditch attempt to keep your partner interested? Only you know the answers to these questions, but it’s best to be honest with yourself. You should never do something to keep one person happy.
  
• Pick a code word. Anything you like can work as a code word, but the code word is your way of saying that you want to stop the threesome and get out.
  
• Remember that threesomes are something that some people take part in, but are by no means something that everyone is taking part in. So don’t feel pressurised to get involved, only if you want to!

LittleBook

Great article on the subject on Irish Central:

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/irish-ministers-spunout-over-sex-ed--199801061.html

Curiously, the most vocal segment of Irish society in matters of sex and sexuality are also usually the ones who would prefer if matters of sex and sexuality were never discussed, anywhere, ever.

How's that for a bit of Irish irony?

It's because, since the foundation of the state, Ireland has always done a bang up job of providing comprehensive sex education to it's youth.

Choosing traditional teaching sites like tree huts, bike sheds, piers, abandoned council estates, quiet alleyways, changing rooms, porn on the internet, scout camps and all too often local sacristies, generations of Irish boys and girls have learned the facts of life from their informed elders in countless unexpected ways, occasionally involving non-consensual demonstrations.

Because when you don't know the facts, its much harder to make informed choices about anything, isn't it?

...

In a delicious bit of Irish irony, Mulherin plans to complain about the SpunOut website to the Irish Health Minister.

But it's quite sad to see mature journalists and politicians take the side of hysteria and shaming over one of knowledge and self-awareness. That's been happening since the story broke. The Sunday Independent wrongly claimed this week that SpunOut received €250,000 in state funding. In fact it received €124,000 in total, which was 20 per cent of their budget. It is not a case of the Irish government promoting 'threesomes,' it's a case of an Irish website addressing the realities of teens lives.

'We advise young people not to be coerced or pressured into having any form of sex,' a statement on SpunOut's web sited clarified yesterday. That's better advice than none at all, isn't it?

The nations most conservative thinkers believe they're already doing a terrific job of educating teens, but the facts, after countless decades of sexual shame and physical abuse that flourished under the national silence they fostered and enforced, simply don't bear it out.

Here's your first clue, SpunOut is very popular with Irish teens. That's the reason why you haven’t even heard of it before now.

meeeeh

There is nothing wrong with that article. Btw even young FG don't agree with her.

WhatNowForUs?

Sex ed in this country is farcical. I've known girls who said the only education they got was that all men are potential rapists.
Others who have thought that anal could lead to pregnancy.
Others not knowing how to use the pill and more who were insulted that I would have bought condoms and be carrying them around with me and then others who felt that the withdrawal method was safe with regards to pregnancy.
All of these were not my girlfriends but they were either girlfriends or their friends.
Proper sex ed is needed in this country and if that site is the closest that we have to it at the moment well then I for one welcome it.

LittleBook

meeeeh wrote: »

Btw even young FG don't agree with her.

But the Iona Institute does ... which is all I need to know really.

It's actually quite cool that the Streisand Effect will ensure that more young people will know about this resource.

Morag

We actually have a very good comprehensive sex ed program but together 8 years ago but it was never distributed to the majority of schools due to the fact they are run by the catholic chruch.

They are free, they can be down loaded or ordered to your house via a text.

http://www.crisispregnancy.ie/publication/parents/

We have the program, we are just not allow to roll it out in schools.

lilmissprincess

We had quite an indepth sex ed programme, a pilot scheme to prevent teen pregnancy. Teaching younger students how to say no and wait but if they were active to use contraveptives. Catholic school. Programme taught by outside professionals and older students in a role as peer educators. I was one of them, and the images of stds slideshow will be burnt onto my retinas forever more. We learned to say no three times and make a cup of tea. Genuinely felt like it did good; but after three years they discontinued it and Im not sure whats there now.

Teenagers are sexually active. Not all of them, but a lot. Hiding sex from them doesnt work. Giving them valid information does. This article gave pros and cons and had an emphasis on the emotional downsides which may occur after a threesome; I found it balanced and informative.

Politicians need to realise that the days of the condom train are long behind us - and leaving the choice of how a teenager finds out about sexual matters up to our health minister just wont work.

misslt

I went to a Catholic convent school and the majority of my sex education came from my religion teacher (I kid you not). She was open, honest and didn't shy away from awkward questions. The rest I learned from my mum. Listening to stories of other peoples education on this matter, I was very lucky to have gotten concise, accurate information from sources I could trust.

I knew girls whose parents were older than mine and wouldn't have ever mentioned sex or anything remotely related under the roof. The stories that some of these people believed were ridiculous, and kinda frightening, such as 'you can't get pregnant if you have sex in such and such a position'. I was intelligent and knew enough to know it couldn't possibly be true, but some swore it was and genuinely believed it themselves, and god knows how long they'd have gone on believing this.

Information being given in a balanced and practical way like the spunout articles is infinitely preferable to garbage being spread around a school or similar. Teenagers will get up to whatever they like and that's pretty much a fact of life (I'm not long out of my teens myself - sometimes I still think I am one :P ) so in my opinion there needs to be standardized sex education for all teenagers, early enough in life for them to be familiar with it and know it and believe it, not as an afterthought that happens after they've started having sex. It also needs to be given in schools, because some parents will not broach the subject with their children, especially if they are a little older or very religious. I knew a lot of people whose families were quite conservative and their children (my peers) went mental on every possible occasion, not knowing half the risks they were taking.

A lot of folk in this country need to take a good hard look at the society around them and be aware of what is actually going on and facilitate this. The same thoughts came into my head the other day reading about the transgender teachers' suicide, and as well when I was reading about the abortion debates. It's beggars belief, it's scary and it's definitely dissuading me from having a child in this country.

beks101

Holy jesus, what century are we living in again? Will this general catholic guilt and shame and silence surrounding sex in Ireland ever die out?

I'd actually worry about someone as naive, archaic and ignorant in her views on sex as Ms. Mulherin sitting in the Dail and partaking in some of the government's most important decisions for the country. At a time when we need progressive, forward-thinking, open-minded politicians, she just sounds like something out of Father Ted.

I think sex education in Ireland is a bit of a national joke. I got a (hilarious) book from my mum with a naked man and woman in it when I was about 12, at which stage I had already learned about the ins and outs (pardon pun...:eek:) through a series of horrified conversations with my then best friend. Then in second year of secondary school, my science teacher "skipped" the chapter on "Reproduction" in biology class. As if a bunch of 14 year olds were too young to handle a few penis and fallopian tube diagrams.

So everything I learned was anecdotal and sex was never something I felt I could broach in any real, non-jokey, non-mortified way with any adult in my life.

Here in Canada, they have TV informercials on STD prevention, condom commercials, free lube handed to you on the street during Sexual Health Awareness Week, frank conversations about sex be it on the street, in the classroom, in the workplace or in the doctor's office, that assume that people have sex - because that's all there is to it really.

It's not sinful, 'wrong' outside of marriage, dirty, shameful or "incredibly regressive" to have a threesome, are you kidding me? What's regressive is the attempt to push what's probably not an uncommon sexual activity for young people under the carpet through judgement and shame-mongering, when Ms. Mulherin probably has never in her life has sat in front of a group of teens and had a conversation about their sexual experience and interests.

Good god.

Vojera

Thanks for posting the article, Scarinae. I hadn't read it and was wondering what all the fuss was about.

Now that I've read it, nothing apparently. To me the article is saying "Have a threesome if that's something you're into. If you do, make sure you practise safe sex and respect everyone involved. If you don't want to do it, or if you've already gotten into one and decide you don't want to do it, say so. Don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable and don't feel pressurised. Make sure that you are respected too. Not everyone is doing it, no matter what your boyfriend or girlfriend might say".

Am I missing something? I really can't see anything wrong with that. I think it's good advice and I also think it's important that teenagers have a source of level-headed advice rather than learning from porn or chinese whispers.

Chronic Button

Scarinae wrote: »

The link to the original article keeps going down, so I've copied and pasted it here, I hope that's ok? I usually think it's best to read the original piece rather than just the reactions - from reading from of the coverage in newspapers you'd think that Spunout was just telling teenagers to 'go and have threesomes, they're great'

Actually, that is an edited version of the article.

The original article had a pros and cons list and was less measured than this edited version, which has appeared since the story broke.

Posy

My sex education in school was all from the religion teacher. She essentially told us that if you have sex it will lead you getting pregnant and more than likely becoming HIV positive. I was terrified of the idea of having sex after her classes.
Our class on contraception was 'Abstention is the only effective method of contraception.' Very helpful!

lazygal wrote: »

What happens if parents decide to tell their children nothing about sex, is that acceptable?

One of my friends came to me, age 13 in tears, terrified because she had started bleeding and it had now been over two days and it hadn't stopped. She was convinced something was horribly wrong with her. This is why all this should not be just left down to the parents.

Addle wrote: »

Were any of you given the 'Every Woman' book?
That's still at home somewhere too-unread, More magazine's 'position of the fortnight' being far more fascinating!

I loved 'Every-Woman' as a teenager! I remember it had a whole chapter on puberty; what periods are, about what age you're meant to start them, breast development, pubic hair, hips... diagrams of what the womb looks like and so on... I found it very helpful and informative at that age!

Thanks for the ink to that article, Scarinae- it's a lot less "Teens! Have a threesome, they're grrrrreat!!" than is being made out by some people.

rainbow kirby

We actually had pretty good age-appropriate sex education in primary school, surprisingly enough for the time (1995-1996-ish for 6th class). I had Every Woman too, a late 70s/early 80s edition that was a hand-me-down from my mother. Me being a huge nerd about all things medical thought it was fascinating.

My secondary school did very little until Transition Year - and they did it with a lot of mixed messages, having one 8 week module taught by a retired midwife who was incredibly open about just about everything, and then an American evangelical pro-abstinence group... of course all of this was too late for one poor girl, who got pregnant at 14 and had her son 7 weeks before the Junior Cert!

Posy

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I had Every Woman too, a late 70s/early 80s edition that was a hand-me-down from my mother. Me being a huge nerd about all things medical thought it was fascinating.

Mine is the same- a battered copy that my mam originally bought in 1977!

Scarinae

Chronic Button wrote: »

Actually, that is an edited version of the article.

The original article had a pros and cons list and was less measured than this edited version, which has appeared since the story broke.

If that is an edited version, is it possible to get the original? Is it cached? If there is a longer version I'd like to read it, I was under the impression that the one I posted was the original.

Even still, the fact that they included cons as well as pros shows that they're not 'promoting' threesomes. There's nothing wrong with threesomes if everyone involved is happy with it.

IvyTheTerrible

Addle wrote: »

It was very basic. A biology class really.
But it was all we needed.

The rest you figured out for yourself.

Do you honestly thing that figuring things out for yourself is the best way to learn about sex contraception etc?

Addle

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Do you honestly thing that figuring things out for yourself is the best way to learn about sex contraception etc?

It didn't do me any harm.
Information is so accessible.

IvyTheTerrible

Addle wrote: »

It didn't do me any harm.
Information is so accessible.

Perhaps for you but you have to know what you are looking for too. Much easier to find porn on the internet that honest clear advice about sex imo.

Jerrica

Addle wrote: »

It didn't do me any harm.
Information is so accessible.

But without websites like the one in the OP, who can guarantee that the information is safe, reliable and informative? That's the whole point of it. Empower teenagers to make their own informed choices.

somenewlady

Addle wrote: »

Fornication refers specifically to extra-marital sex.
You may not agree with her statement, but she's not wrong.

I don't agree entirely with TD Mulherin's opinions, but I am glad that she's brought the matter to public attention, and I don't think she deserves the derision she endures.

There is so much behaviour now that, though it is not technically 'wrong', is inappropriate. All down to 'social media' and the easy accessability of the internet.

When I was in 5th class, we were given sex education. I still have the little blue tampax sponsored booklets that were handed out to us somewhere.

It was very basic. A biology class really.
But it was all we needed.

The rest you figured out for yourself.

I feel sorry for kids now. IMO, they know too much, too soon.

Figure it out for yourselves?!! Jesus! That's exactly what's going wrong with the country and the kids!

When I was in 5th class, we had no sex education. By 5th year, I'd still had no sex education, other than "using tampons can lead to TSS" and learning in biology that "the male sperm impregnates the female egg".

My figuring things out for myself meant that my first memories of being abused by my brother's friend when I was about 8 years old, hit me when I was in bed with the first guy I slept with. I had blocked it out totally until then and had a mini-freak out with him over what I went through. And continued to have mini-freak outs, everything from heavy drinking to self-harming. I've calmed down a lot and have accepted it somewhat, but jesus, I wish I had known more about what was going on.

Every relationship I've had has been haunted by those memories, almost every time I've had sex, it comes back to me. In my strongest relationships, I've told my other half, but after that, have usually split up with them. It's hard to describe, but it's as if once they know what I've been through, I don't want them to touch me anymore.

So fcuk that idea that we should learn things for ourselves. I wish I had known as a kid what I could've told an adult that someone had done to me, I wish I'd had the words, I wish I'd had the information. It wouldn't have changed the fact it happened, but it might have given me something to talk about, other than saying that he had "done bad things to me".

I was 8. I knew what he had done was wrong. I didn't know what was so wrong about, I just knew it was bad. Bad things when you're 8 should be silly scraps at school, or not getting what you wanted for christmas, or hating your siblings for them getting things you didn't or vice versa. Having to use the words "bad things" to describe sexual assault is horrendous.

Sex is a part of life. In your teens, and early adult years, it's a big part of life. Kids should have the information, taught in a normal everyday way. If you know what it is that's actually done in sex, in foreplay, in threesomes, in orgies, it can at times, sound disgusting ("wait, you want me to put that in my mouth after you've had it where now?!") The more you know about it, the safer you can be, and the more you can enjoy yourself (yourselves!)

And apologies for the slight ranting nature of this post, but I genuinely cannot believe that anyone would advocate you "figure something out for yourself". You wouldn't adopt the same approach to driving, or becoming a Doctor, why should sex be so different?!

eviltwin

I had no sex education at all. One of the drawbacks of going to a convent school in the 90's. I did Leaving Cert biology and the last topic we covered was human reproduction in the April of 6th year. Before the class could start we had our principal come in and give us a reminder that what we were learning was about sex but only within a marriage and that anything else was a sin. I think there were two girls who had babies in the class. It was just laughable.

My parents never talked to us about sex suffice to say don't do it. My mother would be the type to turn off the tv if a Tampax ad came on. She never even spoke to us about periods, I had to ask a friend when it happened. Being the oldest girl I really felt I was left in the dark and only for my friends and magazines like Just 17 and Jackie I would have been clueless.

My 15 year old has never had sex education bar a visit from Accord in 6th class which talked about feelings but never actually explained anything about sex or contraception. I'm very open about sex and she knows she can talk to me about anything, she never has but she knows I'm here and that I'm not part of the sex is a dirty word brigade.

I actually feel really sorry for kids today. We had nothing but they have sex everywhere thanks to the internet and it seems very little in the way of guidence, they have this information overload rather than the drip feed we had but still no real help and support to process it.

kunst nugget

eviltwin wrote: »

I actually feel really sorry for kids today. We had nothing but they have sex everywhere thanks to the internet and it seems very little in the way of guidence, they have this information overload rather than the drip feed we had but still no real help and support to process it.

Considering we have the lowest level of teen pregnancies since 1966 according to the CSO figures, they seem to be processing the information pretty well by the looks of it.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teenage-pregnancy-levels-at-lowest-since-1966-cso-report-28902205.html

eviltwin

kunst nugget wrote: »

Considering we have the lowest level of teen pregnancies since 1966 according to the CSO figures, they seem to be processing the information pretty well by the looks of it.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teenage-pregnancy-levels-at-lowest-since-1966-cso-report-28902205.html

I'm not talking about that so much as things like threesomes, oral sex, body image etc. And I would wonder would that decrease have something to do with the MAP and abortion in the UK.

IvyTheTerrible

kunst nugget wrote: »

Considering we have the lowest level of teen pregnancies since 1966 according to the CSO figures, they seem to be processing the information pretty well by the looks of it.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/teenage-pregnancy-levels-at-lowest-since-1966-cso-report-28902205.html

What about STDs?

kunst nugget

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

What about STDs?

On here they state:

STIs are on the increase in Ireland, especially among the young: the proportion of all STI notifications among those aged less than 20 years increased to 12.7% in 2010 from 10.3% in 2008 and 10% in 2007.

There needs to be some sort of targeted campaign for teenagers to highlight the risk of catching STIs. What form that takes, I have no idea. The fact that there seems to be less teenage pregnancies would suggest that they are thinking more about the consequences of their actions. Rather than shutting potential avenues of information for these kids they should be encouraged to reach out to more kids and help them get tested for STIs and to educate them more on the potential problems they could encounter.

LittleBook

eviltwin wrote: »

I had no sex education at all. One of the drawbacks of going to a convent school in the 90's.

Didn't get a chance to talk to my daughter about this last night but on the radio (Newstalk, there's "listen back" if anyone's interested, Part 3 I think) this morning a teacher from Malahide discussed the subject.

She said that sex education is supposd to be part of the curriculum as part of SPHE in the Junior Cycle, @ 2-4 hours on that particular aspect of SPHE but even at that, it is not standardised and is a the mercy of the ethos of the school*. In other words, it completely depends on which school you go to.

So a lot of young people are turning to the internet for information.

She commended Spunout and said it was a great resource for teenagers/young adults and hoped the publicity would help people who need it find the site.

*As an aside, I found it intensely irritating that the interviewer maintained that if children are sent to catholic schools, surely it's because their parents agree with that ethos. She seemed completely clueless about the Irish education system and the lack of choice in schooling. I wish people who were employed to discuss these things had the first clue about them.

kunst nugget

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not talking about that so much as things like threesomes, oral sex, body image etc. And I would wonder would that decrease have something to do with the MAP and abortion in the UK.

Maybe if the access to more grounded and non-judgemental information they can make more informed decisions.

A breakdown of demographics of ish women having terminations in the UK

I couldn't find a similar breakdown of the morning after pill but considering it's prescription only I'd imagine that the breakdown would be something similar.

A 44% decrease in teen pregnancies over the last 10 years or so is pretty impressive though.

username123

I dont remember getting much sex education in school. There was a woman who came in during 6th class and as I was in a mixed school they seperated the boys and the girls so they could talk to girls about periods (why the boys couldnt hear this I dont know!!). I already had my period so knew what was going on with that.

I think mostly I figured things out from peers, peoples older brothers and sisters, tv, magazines - and for me, a ferocious reader from a young age - Jackie Collins novels.

I remember myself and a friend asking the boyfriend of her sister what and orgasm was and he told us it was a kind of earache. I remember a kind of 'wild' girl in school shouting at the rest of us did we know what a blow job was and one poor girl being ridiculed because she thought it was something to do with a hairdryer (I didnt know either but stayed quiet).

Mostly I just lived in absolute terror of a pregnancy as my mother has made it clear (without making sex education clear) that Id be thrown out if that happened. When I finally discovered sex, I was 19 and I didnt really know what was going on.