Sex Education

SarahBeep!

I was watching Midday today after they posted on facebook they would be discussing this article ---->http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-should-the-hse-fund-charities-offering-sex-advice-to-teens-843382-Mar2013/

Which was condemning this article ---->http://spunout.ie/life/article/threesomes


Where did you get most of your information about Sex Ed? TV, friends, internet, magazines, parents?

Are Spunout totally wrong to be advising teens on issues like this?

In my opinion, no. There are much worse things that teenagers could be doing and I don't see what's so wrong with giving teenagers correct information.

What do you think?

December2012

I didn't know what **** was, I didn't know what bollòcs were, I didn't know about cunnilingus, and plenty of other things, eg I didn't know about ovulation and cervical mucus discharge - I thought there was something wrong with me for years.

I think it's great that this information is available to teenagers.

Morag

Anyone who support Spunout, could you nicely let Minister Reilly know minister's_office@health.irlgov.ie why you think Spunout is important.

Likewise Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Francis Fitzgerald can be contacted here: contact@dcya.gov.ie if you want to let her know.

I think it's much needed, there is no national standardized sex ed in all our schools.

LittleBook

Michelle Mulherin is the bright spark who came out with this gem:

fornication is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country

The site is aimed at 16-25 year olds and I can't see anything wrong with a state supported site which finally addresses questions on sex and sexuality in an impartial and frank manner ... all aspects of sex and sexuality, not just the ones Mulherin thinks it's OK to talk about.

What would she prefer appeared if a kid googles "threesome"?

She is just using the emotive "haven't we better things to spend our money on in these difficult times" and "won't someone PLEASE think of the children" to shove her personal agenda in our faces.

Addle

Fornication refers specifically to extra-marital sex.
You may not agree with her statement, but she's not wrong.

I don't agree entirely with TD Mulherin's opinions, but I am glad that she's brought the matter to public attention, and I don't think she deserves the derision she endures.

There is so much behaviour now that, though it is not technically 'wrong', is inappropriate. All down to 'social media' and the easy accessability of the internet.

When I was in 5th class, we were given sex education. I still have the little blue tampax sponsored booklets that were handed out to us somewhere.

It was very basic. A biology class really.
But it was all we needed.

The rest you figured out for yourself.

I feel sorry for kids now. IMO, they know too much, too soon.

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

Fornication refers specifically to extra-marital sex.
You may not agree with her statement, but she's not wrong.

I don't agree entirely with TD Mulherin's opinions, but I am glad that she's brought the matter to public attention, and I don't think she deserves the derision she endures.

There is so much behaviour now that, though it is not technically 'wrong', is inappropriate. All down to 'social media' and the easy accessability of the internet.

When I was in 5th class, we were given sex education. I still have the little blue tampax sponsored booklets that were handed our to us somewhere.

It was very basic. A biology class really.
But it was all we needed.

The rest you figured out for yourself.

I feel sorry for kids now. IMO, they know too much, too soon.

Do you think married couples don't have unwanted or crisis pregnancies?

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

Do you think married couples don't have unwanted or crisis pregnancies?

No.
Mulherin didn't say they don't either.

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

No.
Mulherin didn't say they don't either.

She referred to 'fornication', not married sex, as the 'leading' cause of unwanted pregnancy. Do you have any statistics to confirm what she said is true? Why single out those having sex outside marriage anyway, why is the marital status of those having sex relevant?

LittleBook

Addle wrote: »

Fornication refers specifically to extra-marital sex.
You may not agree with her statement, but she's not wrong.

Fair point

I still think she's a throwback ... ironically enough she considers the site to be regressive.

Addle wrote: »

It was very basic. A biology class really.
But it was all we needed.

The rest you figured out for yourself.

I think we can do better than that. I think schools can do better than that. But since they are not prepared to, probably because of their "ethos", the gaps will have to be filled elsewhere.

Addle wrote: »

I feel sorry for kids now. IMO, they know too much, too soon.

Any kid with access to the internet can access just about anything on the internet. I commend Spunout for trying to do provide information on elements of sex that others clearly can't bear to think about.

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

She referred to 'fornication', not married sex, as the 'leading' cause of unwanted pregnancy. Do you have any statistics to confirm what she said is true? Why single out those having sex outside marriage anyway, why is the marital status of those having sex relevant?

No I don't. Do you have statistics proving that what she said is wrong?

I just responded to the post above.

The topic is about sex education, not extra-marital sex. I hope anyone marrying would have been educated about sex before their marriage.

meeeeh

Hehehe the link is already down. I think there are too many different charities or organisations funded by state but I don't know if this one should or shouldn't be. It would be stupid to take the funding away because they dare to mention threesome. They could take it away if somebody else is already offering the same info. I would hate to see if content would be used as a cover up for cost cutting in HSE.

As for sex ed, I got info in school, teenage magazines and quite a bit from friends who stole brothers porn video when they were eight. That one wasn't overly accurate.

Addle

LittleBook wrote: »

I think we can do better than that. I think schools can do better than that. But since they are not prepared to, probably because of their "ethos", the gaps will have to be filled elsewhere

I think parents should have ultimate responsibility when it comes to informing their children about sex.
I don't think it should be part of the curriculum.
Is it?

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

I think parents should have ultimate responsibility when it comes to informing their children about sex.
I don't think it should be part of the curriculum.
Is it?

What happens if parents decide to tell their children nothing about sex, is that acceptable?

Lyaiera

Addle wrote: »

No I don't. Do you have statistics proving that what she said is wrong?

I think the point is that what she said was bloody stupid. Sex being the most likely cause of pregnancy is up there with accidents being the most likely cause of injuries and deaths being the most likely cause of funerals. (TDs being the most likely cause of face palming.)


Sex education is a good thing. Sex needs to be demystified and sex shouldn't be considered sacred.

meeeeh

Addle wrote: »

I think parents should have ultimate responsibility when it comes to informing their children about sex.
I don't think it should be part of the curriculum.
Is it?

Oh good god no. Since the state will be picking the tab for unplanned teenage pregnancies, different sexually transmitted infections and similar it's in state's interest to have proper education.

Btw my parents gave me a book which I didn't bother reading.

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

What happens if parents decide to tell their children nothing about sex, is that acceptable?

I don't think class time should be spent on such topics.
There are lots of things that some parents do or don't do that I personally wouldn't find acceptable.
I learned more about sex from teen magazines than I did from formal lessons at school or from my parents. I find that perfectly acceptable.

Morag

I don't think class time should be spent on religious indoctrination,
if people want that let them take their children to church, mosque, temple, meeting house or stone circle themselves.

Lyaiera

Addle wrote: »

I don't think class time should be spent on such topics.
There are lots of things that some parents do or don't do that I personally wouldn't find acceptable.
I learned more about sex from teen magazines than I did from formal lessons at school or from my parents. I find that perfectly acceptable.

So if SpunOut wasn't funded by the government you wouldn't have a problem with it? I don't think the government funds CBT porn, you fine with that as a sex education tool too?

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

I don't think class time should be spent on such topics.
There are lots of things that some parents do or don't do that I personally wouldn't find acceptable.
I learned more about sex from teen magazines than I did from formal lessons at school or from my parents. I find that perfectly acceptable.

So you think children shouldn't receive any formal sex education if their parents object and should rely on informal and ad hoc methods to learn about sex? What is objectionable about telling children and teenagers how their bodies work?

Addle

Were any of you given the 'Every Woman' book?
That's still at home somewhere too-unread, More magazine's 'position of the fortnight' being far more fascinating!

Addle

I have no issue with tax payer funding a magazine or advice.

meeeeh

Morag wrote: »

I don't think class time should be spent on religious indoctrination,
if people want that let them take their children to church, mosque, temple, meeting house or stone circle themselves.

That is the first thing that came on my mind when I read that post. Sex is hughley important and schools should absolutely use some time for sex ed.

Morag

We still need proper sex, sexuality and sexual health based education programs in our schools, the Every woman's book is a good one but it does not cover everything.

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

So you think children shouldn't receive any formal sex education if their parents object and should rely on informal and ad hoc methods to learn about sex? What is objectionable about telling children and teenagers how their bodies work?

I don't think that class time should be spent on sex education. I have no objection to educating children and teenagers on such matters.

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

I have no issue with tax payer funding a magazine or advice.

So if Spun out was a magazine and not a website that'd be OK?

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

I don't think that class time should be spent on sex education. I have no objection to educating children and teenagers on such matters.

Why shouldn't class time be spent on it? What happens if parents decide to tell their children nothing about sex?

LittleBook

Addle wrote: »

I think parents should have ultimate responsibility when it comes to informing their children about sex.
I don't think it should be part of the curriculum.
Is it?

I agree, but what happens when parents fail in that responsibility?

I see great benefits in including basic sex education in the curriculum at a certain age ... in fact, if I recall correctly, there already is some semblance of sex education included in the curriculum, I'll check with my daughter tonight what they've touched on. It might have been something specific her school did outside of the curriculum.

ahnowbrowncow

Why is this such a big deal? The government has spent €126,000 on a lot worse than sex education for teenagers.

Is it because sex is still a taboo subject for many catholics in this country?

BlatentCheek

I always felt I got adequate sex ed in school but lack of standardization is definitely a problem, I know a girls school where they were told that 50% of johnnies broke, presumably to scare them off sex but just as likely to encourage a more relaxed view towards contraception and grossly irresponsible IMO.

Spunout link is already down but if the worst stuff in it is quoted in the journal.ie article I have no problem with it, some youngsters have a lot of sex regardless of what they're told and making it safe is the best you can hope for. I believe that our teen pregnancy rates have come down considerably in the last decade or so and believe education in this vein deserves a lot of the credit, I bet less STI infection accompanies that trend.

FG draw a lot of their support from more socially conservative voters and need to shore up that support at the same time as being forced into legislating for abortion and possibly gay marriage so Michelle Mulherins crusade against sex education which takes a tone that may offend such voters is hardly unsurprising in the context. Given that such sex education prevents unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STI's I believe opposing it like this is also highly cynical. Her apparent attempt to use feminist language in her criticism by claiming it "promoted the idea that people could be objectified for sexual gratification" is also dishonest and cynical in that females are the biggest losers from unprotected sex resulting in an unwanted pregnancy.

LittleBook

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Why is this such a big deal?

The article has been on the website for years. It's only an issue now because Ms Mulherin has taken umbrage with it.

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Is it because sex is still a taboo subject for many catholics in this country?

Yes

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

So if Spun out was a magazine and not a website that'd be OK?

I haven't taken issue with the magazine, its funding, or advice.

Lisha

I've no objection to kids being told in great detail about sex, positions, how to avoid sti/std, birth control, everything.
But they also need to be told in the same level of detail about the psychological impact sex does have on our emotions.
They need to be made aware that yes sex is a wonderful recreational activity but human emotions need to be highly respected.
Person a in a sexual partnership needs to consider and respect person b emotional well being and vice versa.
It goes without saying that the both parties must be sober and awake enough to consent. Person a should never use person b unreturned affection to procure sex.

Sex is wonderful both as a recreation and as part of a partnership.
It should not be cheapened as an expectation of a night out.

So I want our kids to know they can say ''yes' or 'no' depending on what's right for them.

Addle

The big fear that was instilled in us was TSS, not pregnancy!

Scarinae

The link to the original article keeps going down, so I've copied and pasted it here, I hope that's ok? I usually think it's best to read the original piece rather than just the reactions - from reading from of the coverage in newspapers you'd think that Spunout was just telling teenagers to 'go and have threesomes, they're great'

Threesomes
If you are to take part in a threesome, make sure it's a safe experience.

Remember that the age of sexual consent in the Republic of Ireland is 17 and the age of sexual consent in Northern Ireland is 16.

If you are to take part in a threesome, make sure it a safe experience for everyone involved and that contraception and respect are both part of the experience.

What is a threesome?

A threesome involves getting sexually intimate with two people rather than just one person. Threesomes can involve any combination of guys and gals. They often consist of a couple experimenting with another person outside of their relationship. Some people find threesomes to be enjoyable, for others it is an uncomfortable or upsetting experience.

You may feel under pressure by your partner to have a threesome because your other half has seen them on porn, films, or television.

However, you should never feel pressured into doing something that you don’t want to do.

Top tips for keeping it safe and enjoyable

• Keep it safe. Yeah, yeah, you’ve heard it all before, but seriously keep yourself protected. Like every sexual encounter it is important that you practice safe sex, and that means using contraception, even during oral sex. Remember that condoms are the only form of contraception that protects you against both pregnancy and STI’s.
  
• Do be aware that you’ll need to change condoms if you are switching partners during the threesome. Otherwise you could end up with some pretty nasty infections.
  
• Only do it if you want to do it. Not ‘cause you want to keep your girl or guy happy or because other people say it would be great craic. You do not love your partner any less because you do not want a threesome.
  
• Respect your partner. If your partner tells you that they want things a certain way, don’t ignore it during the threesome. That’s pretty uncool and will likely affect your relationship too.
  
• Think through reasons why you want a threesome. You don’t want to end up regretting it!
  
• Be clear about why you are doing this. Are you looking to spice up your sex life? Or is this a last ditch attempt to keep your partner interested? Only you know the answers to these questions, but it’s best to be honest with yourself. You should never do something to keep one person happy.
  
• Pick a code word. Anything you like can work as a code word, but the code word is your way of saying that you want to stop the threesome and get out.
  
• Remember that threesomes are something that some people take part in, but are by no means something that everyone is taking part in. So don’t feel pressurised to get involved, only if you want to!

LittleBook

Great article on the subject on Irish Central:

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/irish-ministers-spunout-over-sex-ed--199801061.html

Curiously, the most vocal segment of Irish society in matters of sex and sexuality are also usually the ones who would prefer if matters of sex and sexuality were never discussed, anywhere, ever.

How's that for a bit of Irish irony?

It's because, since the foundation of the state, Ireland has always done a bang up job of providing comprehensive sex education to it's youth.

Choosing traditional teaching sites like tree huts, bike sheds, piers, abandoned council estates, quiet alleyways, changing rooms, porn on the internet, scout camps and all too often local sacristies, generations of Irish boys and girls have learned the facts of life from their informed elders in countless unexpected ways, occasionally involving non-consensual demonstrations.

Because when you don't know the facts, its much harder to make informed choices about anything, isn't it?

...

In a delicious bit of Irish irony, Mulherin plans to complain about the SpunOut website to the Irish Health Minister.

But it's quite sad to see mature journalists and politicians take the side of hysteria and shaming over one of knowledge and self-awareness. That's been happening since the story broke. The Sunday Independent wrongly claimed this week that SpunOut received €250,000 in state funding. In fact it received €124,000 in total, which was 20 per cent of their budget. It is not a case of the Irish government promoting 'threesomes,' it's a case of an Irish website addressing the realities of teens lives.

'We advise young people not to be coerced or pressured into having any form of sex,' a statement on SpunOut's web sited clarified yesterday. That's better advice than none at all, isn't it?

The nations most conservative thinkers believe they're already doing a terrific job of educating teens, but the facts, after countless decades of sexual shame and physical abuse that flourished under the national silence they fostered and enforced, simply don't bear it out.

Here's your first clue, SpunOut is very popular with Irish teens. That's the reason why you haven’t even heard of it before now.

meeeeh

There is nothing wrong with that article. Btw even young FG don't agree with her.

WhatNowForUs?

Sex ed in this country is farcical. I've known girls who said the only education they got was that all men are potential rapists.
Others who have thought that anal could lead to pregnancy.
Others not knowing how to use the pill and more who were insulted that I would have bought condoms and be carrying them around with me and then others who felt that the withdrawal method was safe with regards to pregnancy.
All of these were not my girlfriends but they were either girlfriends or their friends.
Proper sex ed is needed in this country and if that site is the closest that we have to it at the moment well then I for one welcome it.

LittleBook

meeeeh wrote: »

Btw even young FG don't agree with her.

But the Iona Institute does ... which is all I need to know really.

It's actually quite cool that the Streisand Effect will ensure that more young people will know about this resource.

Morag

We actually have a very good comprehensive sex ed program but together 8 years ago but it was never distributed to the majority of schools due to the fact they are run by the catholic chruch.

They are free, they can be down loaded or ordered to your house via a text.

http://www.crisispregnancy.ie/publication/parents/

We have the program, we are just not allow to roll it out in schools.

lilmissprincess

We had quite an indepth sex ed programme, a pilot scheme to prevent teen pregnancy. Teaching younger students how to say no and wait but if they were active to use contraveptives. Catholic school. Programme taught by outside professionals and older students in a role as peer educators. I was one of them, and the images of stds slideshow will be burnt onto my retinas forever more. We learned to say no three times and make a cup of tea. Genuinely felt like it did good; but after three years they discontinued it and Im not sure whats there now.

Teenagers are sexually active. Not all of them, but a lot. Hiding sex from them doesnt work. Giving them valid information does. This article gave pros and cons and had an emphasis on the emotional downsides which may occur after a threesome; I found it balanced and informative.

Politicians need to realise that the days of the condom train are long behind us - and leaving the choice of how a teenager finds out about sexual matters up to our health minister just wont work.

misslt

I went to a Catholic convent school and the majority of my sex education came from my religion teacher (I kid you not). She was open, honest and didn't shy away from awkward questions. The rest I learned from my mum. Listening to stories of other peoples education on this matter, I was very lucky to have gotten concise, accurate information from sources I could trust.

I knew girls whose parents were older than mine and wouldn't have ever mentioned sex or anything remotely related under the roof. The stories that some of these people believed were ridiculous, and kinda frightening, such as 'you can't get pregnant if you have sex in such and such a position'. I was intelligent and knew enough to know it couldn't possibly be true, but some swore it was and genuinely believed it themselves, and god knows how long they'd have gone on believing this.

Information being given in a balanced and practical way like the spunout articles is infinitely preferable to garbage being spread around a school or similar. Teenagers will get up to whatever they like and that's pretty much a fact of life (I'm not long out of my teens myself - sometimes I still think I am one :P ) so in my opinion there needs to be standardized sex education for all teenagers, early enough in life for them to be familiar with it and know it and believe it, not as an afterthought that happens after they've started having sex. It also needs to be given in schools, because some parents will not broach the subject with their children, especially if they are a little older or very religious. I knew a lot of people whose families were quite conservative and their children (my peers) went mental on every possible occasion, not knowing half the risks they were taking.

A lot of folk in this country need to take a good hard look at the society around them and be aware of what is actually going on and facilitate this. The same thoughts came into my head the other day reading about the transgender teachers' suicide, and as well when I was reading about the abortion debates. It's beggars belief, it's scary and it's definitely dissuading me from having a child in this country.

beks101

Holy jesus, what century are we living in again? Will this general catholic guilt and shame and silence surrounding sex in Ireland ever die out?

I'd actually worry about someone as naive, archaic and ignorant in her views on sex as Ms. Mulherin sitting in the Dail and partaking in some of the government's most important decisions for the country. At a time when we need progressive, forward-thinking, open-minded politicians, she just sounds like something out of Father Ted.

I think sex education in Ireland is a bit of a national joke. I got a (hilarious) book from my mum with a naked man and woman in it when I was about 12, at which stage I had already learned about the ins and outs (pardon pun...:eek:) through a series of horrified conversations with my then best friend. Then in second year of secondary school, my science teacher "skipped" the chapter on "Reproduction" in biology class. As if a bunch of 14 year olds were too young to handle a few penis and fallopian tube diagrams.

So everything I learned was anecdotal and sex was never something I felt I could broach in any real, non-jokey, non-mortified way with any adult in my life.

Here in Canada, they have TV informercials on STD prevention, condom commercials, free lube handed to you on the street during Sexual Health Awareness Week, frank conversations about sex be it on the street, in the classroom, in the workplace or in the doctor's office, that assume that people have sex - because that's all there is to it really.

It's not sinful, 'wrong' outside of marriage, dirty, shameful or "incredibly regressive" to have a threesome, are you kidding me? What's regressive is the attempt to push what's probably not an uncommon sexual activity for young people under the carpet through judgement and shame-mongering, when Ms. Mulherin probably has never in her life has sat in front of a group of teens and had a conversation about their sexual experience and interests.

Good god.

Vojera

Thanks for posting the article, Scarinae. I hadn't read it and was wondering what all the fuss was about.

Now that I've read it, nothing apparently. To me the article is saying "Have a threesome if that's something you're into. If you do, make sure you practise safe sex and respect everyone involved. If you don't want to do it, or if you've already gotten into one and decide you don't want to do it, say so. Don't do anything that makes you uncomfortable and don't feel pressurised. Make sure that you are respected too. Not everyone is doing it, no matter what your boyfriend or girlfriend might say".

Am I missing something? I really can't see anything wrong with that. I think it's good advice and I also think it's important that teenagers have a source of level-headed advice rather than learning from porn or chinese whispers.

Chronic Button

Scarinae wrote: »

The link to the original article keeps going down, so I've copied and pasted it here, I hope that's ok? I usually think it's best to read the original piece rather than just the reactions - from reading from of the coverage in newspapers you'd think that Spunout was just telling teenagers to 'go and have threesomes, they're great'

Actually, that is an edited version of the article.

The original article had a pros and cons list and was less measured than this edited version, which has appeared since the story broke.

Posy

My sex education in school was all from the religion teacher. She essentially told us that if you have sex it will lead you getting pregnant and more than likely becoming HIV positive. I was terrified of the idea of having sex after her classes.
Our class on contraception was 'Abstention is the only effective method of contraception.' Very helpful!

lazygal wrote: »

What happens if parents decide to tell their children nothing about sex, is that acceptable?

One of my friends came to me, age 13 in tears, terrified because she had started bleeding and it had now been over two days and it hadn't stopped. She was convinced something was horribly wrong with her. This is why all this should not be just left down to the parents.

Addle wrote: »

Were any of you given the 'Every Woman' book?
That's still at home somewhere too-unread, More magazine's 'position of the fortnight' being far more fascinating!

I loved 'Every-Woman' as a teenager! I remember it had a whole chapter on puberty; what periods are, about what age you're meant to start them, breast development, pubic hair, hips... diagrams of what the womb looks like and so on... I found it very helpful and informative at that age!

Thanks for the ink to that article, Scarinae- it's a lot less "Teens! Have a threesome, they're grrrrreat!!" than is being made out by some people.

rainbow kirby

We actually had pretty good age-appropriate sex education in primary school, surprisingly enough for the time (1995-1996-ish for 6th class). I had Every Woman too, a late 70s/early 80s edition that was a hand-me-down from my mother. Me being a huge nerd about all things medical thought it was fascinating.

My secondary school did very little until Transition Year - and they did it with a lot of mixed messages, having one 8 week module taught by a retired midwife who was incredibly open about just about everything, and then an American evangelical pro-abstinence group... of course all of this was too late for one poor girl, who got pregnant at 14 and had her son 7 weeks before the Junior Cert!

Posy

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I had Every Woman too, a late 70s/early 80s edition that was a hand-me-down from my mother. Me being a huge nerd about all things medical thought it was fascinating.

Mine is the same- a battered copy that my mam originally bought in 1977!

Scarinae

Chronic Button wrote: »

Actually, that is an edited version of the article.

The original article had a pros and cons list and was less measured than this edited version, which has appeared since the story broke.

If that is an edited version, is it possible to get the original? Is it cached? If there is a longer version I'd like to read it, I was under the impression that the one I posted was the original.

Even still, the fact that they included cons as well as pros shows that they're not 'promoting' threesomes. There's nothing wrong with threesomes if everyone involved is happy with it.

IvyTheTerrible

Addle wrote: »

It was very basic. A biology class really.
But it was all we needed.

The rest you figured out for yourself.

Do you honestly thing that figuring things out for yourself is the best way to learn about sex contraception etc?

Addle

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Do you honestly thing that figuring things out for yourself is the best way to learn about sex contraception etc?

It didn't do me any harm.
Information is so accessible.

IvyTheTerrible

Addle wrote: »

It didn't do me any harm.
Information is so accessible.

Perhaps for you but you have to know what you are looking for too. Much easier to find porn on the internet that honest clear advice about sex imo.