Táiniste snubs men-only dinner in Georgia

percy212

Tell me this isn't true.

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Portmarnock being a men only members club.

krudler

percy212 wrote: »

Tell me this isn't true.

It is, men only.

The Big Red Button

krudler wrote: »

It is, men only.

Had a quick Google, only because I found it all so unbelievable. Found this on the Clontarf Golf Club website.

Lady Members(other than Ordinary and Five-Day Members)
Mondays (and Tuesdays following Monday Bank Holidays) – May play all day. Priority on Course if playing in Competition of the Day.
Tuesdays – May commence play up to 4.30 p.m. (subject to Society Outings having rights on 1st tee). May play after 7.00 p.m.
Wednesdays – May commence play up to 4.30 p.m. (subject to Men’s competition rights on 1st tee). May play after 7.00 p.m.
Thursday – May play all day (but no competition/priority rights on course).
Friday – May commence play up to 4.30 p.m. (subject to Society Outings having rights on 1st tee). May play after 7.00 p.m.
Saturday – Winter Time: May play after 2.30 p.m. Summer Time: May play after 3.30 p.m.
Sunday – Winter Time: May start from 1st tee after 1.30 p.m. alternating with men. Summer Time – May start from 1st tee between 11.30 a.m. and 1.00 p.m. and after 3.00 p.m. provided a time sheet is not in operation.
Are not eligible to play in weekend leagues.

Ugh.

drunkmonkey

There's very few men in the country that have any problem whatsoever with a girls club, what's the problem with men having a club?

Take the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts it's no more a "ugh" situation than portmornack club. Should we disband the girl scouts when we've the ICA destroyed. If you want to kill men clubs your going to have to kill the girls one's as well. That's something I think very few people want to see but Gilmore is pushing us in that direction.

The Big Red Button

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's very few men in the country that have any problem whatsoever with a girls club, what's the problem with men having a club?

Take the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts it's no more a "ugh" situation than portmornack club. Should be disband the scouts when we've the ICA destroyed. If you want to kill men clubs your going to have to kill the girls one's as well. That's something I think very few people want to see but Gilmore is pushing us in that direction.

Yeah, do that! I have no problem with the boy scouts and/or girl scouts being disbanded either - I was never a member, and don't see the point of such segregation, myself!

coffee_cake

Don't really see the issue with there being a men only club tbh

krudler

bluewolf wrote: »

Don't really see the issue with there being a men only club tbh

Same tbh, private clubs can have their own rules, plenty of female only ones, can't see why men can't have the same.

Ambersky

I really welcome men refusing to take part in events, clubs and societies designed to exclude women.
I would like the men who do so to be consistent in this stance but I am grateful that they do it at all, particularly when it makes headlines and makes people aware that this kind of thing still happens.
Thanks Guys even if you just dont join clubs etc for excluding women out of a natural sense of justice I think that is great.

Gemma Hussey is on the Marian Finucane radio show this morning and she told of how she was refused a place at that dinner years ago, because she was a woman and even though she was an elected Government Minister. She said Garrett Fitzgerald was deeply uncomfortable with what was happening at that time and that he was an instinctual feminist that hated the way Gemma Hussey was treated.
The exclusion of women is all part of the history of the Hibernian Society, a conservative association of Irish Emigrants who seem to be stuck in a time warp and still think they somehow represent "Irishness" by portraying a male dominated, anti woman, catholic, anti gay, heterosexual, image of us abroad.

The problem with all male associations like this, golf clubs and all male secret societies is the businessmen networking aspect of things.
This has the effect of keeping women out of these circles of power and influence and is designed to do so.
There is a lot of resistance and denial to this idea yet there is a lot of information and advice available on how to use for example, golf to seal buisness deals. Golf membership is given, or use to be given as part of a perk of certain jobs. If there is no problem recognising membership of such clubs as being advantageous in buisness why is there such denial that excluding women from these buisness connections would be unfairly disadvantages to women.
The Portmarnock all male golf club, which has already been mentioned, denies this association with unfair all male buisness networking. If you Google "All male golf club buisness networking" you wont get much information on unfair buisness opportunity to males but if you Google "Buisness networking in Golf" there will be a lot of mostly male advice and stories of how important golf is to buisness networking.
From Forbes http://www.forbes.com/sites/cherylsnappconner/2013/01/24/19-tips-for-closing-a-deal-on-the-golf-course/

Another networking expert, George Souri, owner of UltraPawn and “dealmaker extraordinaire,” notes that he has closed hundreds of deals through golfing, though not necessarily while playing golf. According to George and other experts, “You should use your time on the course to develop the relationship, not to sell a deal. Being overly eager to ‘talk shop’ will likely annoy your partner, or worse, affect his focus and game. A day of bad play is not going to help your chances for closing a deal.”

“Remember that more often than not, people make investments in people. A round of golf is a great time to demonstrate you are a smart, competent, and likeable person. If you are a thoughtful golfer who engages in good conversation on the course, you will increase your chances for closing a deal.” Are you convinced? To help your cause, we’ve compiled a series of 19 top tips from business golf experts who’ve offered their best ideas and advice:

Heres the KPMG Golf networking site http://www.golfbusinesscommunity.com/golf-business-forum-home/
The VIP Buisness Golf Network who can organise a visit to Georgia for you
http://www.vipbusinessgolfnetwork.com/
The list goes on and on, golf and buisness men clubs are ways to increase buisness opportunities and denial of women entry to such clubs keeps those buisness opportunities etc in male only hands.

Men or Women getting together in single sex groups for the enjoyment of single sex company, to have a laugh, to enjoy an activity, to share stories, to support one another, etc. I think is great, when there is no effort to maintain financial privilege, or access to resources, for one group only and to thereby exclude opportunities to the other group.

drunkmonkey

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

Yeah, do that! I have no problem with the boy scouts and/or girl scouts being disbanded either - I was never a member, and don't see the point of such segregation, myself!

Ugh, I hope your utopian gender less world never comes to pass.

Fiery mutant

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

Had a quick Google, only because I found it all so unbelievable. Found this on the Clontarf Golf Club website.



Ugh.

Women are allowed to play in Portmarnock, but are not allowed to become members. Same as at Augusta in the States, which is probably the most famous course in the world, or one of the most famous.

Sonics2k

Let's be honest here, Gilmore would of gotten a bollockin' no matter what decision he went with.

Ambersky

The issue to my mind is not one of simply being allowed to play a game with the boys.
As far as I know Portmarnock has a position of restricted access for women and denial of full membership.
Restricted access can mean women can only play at certain times, in certain events and are restricted to certain areas eg there is segregation in certain of the club bars.
I think posters may be confusing male only golf clubs with mens clubs and womens clubs on the same course.
The mens golf clubs dont have a little get together and agree to meet up at agreed times in a certain place to enjoy one anothers company, they own the land, the buildings and the course itself which is one of the best in the country.
They own the land and the clubhouse for historical reasons, or because they were established at a time when most high earning professions had restricted access to women, political and economic power was in male hands and male clubs were used to create and sustain this culture. The Hibernian and some Golf clubs are just following an old outdated tradition.

krudler says
Same tbh, private clubs can have their own rules, plenty of female only ones, can't see why men can't have the same.

I dont know any women only golf clubs that own their own course land and buildings and that offer restricted memberships to their male guests in Ireland. Are there any?

The real question to my mind is, is this restricted access a restriction simply on access to bars, times allowed on the golf course etc or is it also a restriction on buisness networking opportunities or access to jobs.
The latter is a lot more difficult to prove but I see it as part of the tradition of these conservative clubs and societies.

The whole thing seems so privileged and snobby to me anyway that I find if difficult to really want women to join such a club but I know we need to encourage women in business and I think socially this kind of conservative outdated behaviour is not good for either men or women.
Friends tell me golf is great but I just cant disassociate it from all that bad history

lazygal

GOLF: Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden.

I know several women working in the more senior end of corporate Ireland who are incredibly frustrated by the old boys' network they are now encountering at this stage of their careers. There's a well founded belief that unless you went to a particular male private catholic collection of schools you're out of the loop networking wise (old boys' associations etc) and play golf at the right clubs, you're just not going to fulfill the unspoken requirements of getting into the next level of seniority.

pwurple

Ambersky wrote: »

I dont know any women only golf clubs that own their own course land and buildings and that offer restricted memberships to their male guests in Ireland. Are there any?

I don't know of any female only golf clubs, but there are plenty of ladies only gyms. Chains of them even.

But, a voice from the inside is often stronger than a voice from the outside, and this is why I think he should have attended.

The Corinthian

shoos wrote: »

There's been the usual response of "women have their female only dinners and events all the time", "it's PC gone mad" etc.

But female only events, especially in the field of politics or business, are there because females are a minority. I really don't see the weight behind that argument.

Yet Ivana Bacik, Gilmore's former running mate, was happy to organize a female only meeting to discuss how women should be exempted from custodial sentences in prisons in the Dail. Not sure how being in the minority in business or politics really fits in there, but Gilmore didn't seem to have a problem.

Or should meetings be held about child custody issues that only men may attend, seeing as men are a minority in that area?

Or, in the case of women-only associations, that openly admit to being about 'networking', should they not be allowed for industries, such as human resources, that are largely dominated by women? Maybe male-only primary school teacher associations are okay?

Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this "women are oppressed, so have a right to act like assholes" logic is? We're all oppressed somewhere in society; so should we all start applying the same logic?

As to Gilmore's cancellation, he did so while essentially on a diplomatic visit in the US. I would suggest we don't send him on any more such trips to the middle east, where we sell much of our beef and lamb products, as he may drop another clanger on the basis of some idiotic notion of principle.

clairefontaine

One apartheid breeds another and so the merry go round continues.

Gilmore et all go over there with their begging bowls out. Funny that a beggar can be a chooser but I suppose that is how deluded they are.

Let's hope he never gets invited to the Vatican or to any of the gender segregated schools of Ireland. It would be embarrassing to see him snub any of t them.

"Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this "women are oppressed, so have a right to act like assholes" logic is? We're all oppressed somewhere in society; so should we all start applying the same logic?"

Apparantly, yes, this is exactly what one should do, or so I have been told.

Legs.Eleven

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this "women are oppressed, so have a right to act like assholes" logic is? We're all oppressed somewhere in society; so should we all start applying the same logic?

Jesus what an overreaction. Who said this or even implied it?

flutered

some time back his comerade jan o sullivan refused to canvass for to keep u.s. military stopover flights in shannon, because they were/are against her principals, the flights were transfered to germany, the real teachoc frau merkel had no such qualms when she got give them the go ahead to fly into germany.

cosbloodymick

I once tried to gain admittance to a gym near my workplace but was refused on the grounds of my gender ie male.
This was definite discrimination on a gender basis. However I accepted that if a group of females wish to form a club then they have the freedom to choose who they admit to that club. Its quite possible that the ladies in that club discussed business and made business connections from time to time, and if they did, good for them .
Its wrong that the same freedoms are not available to men.

Galwayguy35

Gilmore was in a foreign country and his job is to drum up more business for this country, not snub any invites that he gets over there.

As someone else said it's no coincidence that he pulls this stunt when Labour are at rock bottom in the polls.

The hypocrisy of the guy makes me sick.

KamiKazeKitten

I don't have a problem with it being a men only club tbh. If women can have women only clubs then so be it, leave the men have their own.

That said, I think Gilmore was damned if he did and damned if he didn't go tbh, someone somewhere would be bound to criticise. He is there to drum up business for Ireland though, so I don't feel he was right to bow out.

Morag

I think it depends on what the club is for, if it's a mens support group or community group that is one thing, but the Order of Hibernians is a text book example of an old boys club.
It is used for business and political networking.

http://www.aoh.com/membership-info/

Membership Information

Membership in the Ancient Order of Hibernians, Inc. is confined to men 16 years and older who are practicing Roman Catholics of Irish birth or descent and who are citizens of United States of America or who have declared their intentions to become citizens of the United States of America.

So it's not just the gender issue Gilmore is an Athiest, and they are a pro life fundamental Roman Catholic Organization.

TO BE A MEMBER YOU MUST BE A PRACTICING CATHOLIC AND BE OF IRISH HERITAGE BY BIRTH OR DESCENT. (Only Exception: Clergy need not be Irish.)

mariaalice

I think he should have gone to the dinner it was a rude not to do so he was in their country after all.

I don't have a problem with men ( or woman only organisations )

Taking a position on men only organisation is a distraction from real problems that affect women i.e the cost of child care.

mariaalice

Morag wrote: »

I think it depends on what the club is for, if it's a mens support group or community group that is one thing, but the Order of Hibernians is a text book example of an old boys club.
It is used for business and political networking.

http://www.aoh.com/membership-info/



So it's not just the gender issue Gilmore is an Athiest, and they are a pro life fundamental Roman Catholic Organisation.

There are Woman only networking organisation do you have a problem with them?

Morag

mariaalice wrote: »

There are Woman only networking organisation do you have a problem with them?

Depends, if it was a women's only networking in a career which is dominated by women like nursing then yes I would do. I won't have a problem with such a group for male nurses who are in the minority, or with women in the IT/coding/engineering sectors were they are in the minority.

southsiderosie

bluewolf wrote: »

Don't really see the issue with there being a men only club tbh

I would agree that men should be free to form their own groups, but others should be just as free to see some of these groups as an anachronism. Many of the Hibernian Societies in the US are socially conservative old boys networks whose views on women and gays are stuck in the 1950s. If that is how they want to roll, that is their right, but the rest of us have the right to shun/mock them as we see fit.

coffee_cake

southsiderosie wrote: »

I would agree that men should be free to form their own groups, but others should be just as free to see some of these groups as an anachronism. Many of the Hibernian Societies in the US are socially conservative old boys networks whose views on women and gays are stuck in the 1950s. If that is how they want to roll, that is their right, but the rest of us have the right to shun/mock them as we see fit.

Oh absolutely - I was thinking more from the "they should be banned" kind of view. I'm not sure if anyone even said that, but that's where I was coming from

strandroad

Morag wrote: »

Depends, if it was a women's only networking in a career which is dominated by women like nursing then yes I would do. I won't have a problem with such a group for male nurses who are in the minority, or with women in the IT/coding/engineering sectors were they are in the minority.

Another aspect is that such groups are not typically closed to male members/guests as long as they recognise the underlying idea. There are women groups in IT but in the ones I'm aware of male supporters can attend if they wish. It's different to a completely closed shop like the Hibernian institution where women are excluded completely, and barred from attending even as guests.

clairefontaine

Out of curiousity was the Hibernian Society created as an alternative to the Freemasons?

mariaalice

Morag wrote: »

Depends, if it was a women's only networking in a career which is dominated by women like nursing then yes I would do. I won't have a problem with such a group for male nurses who are in the minority, or with women in the IT/coding/engineering sectors were they are in the minority.

The OH sounds like something from the Ark to be honest and should not be supported by anyone, they would soon fall away if it was known in a discrete way that membership of such an organisation would be detrimental to you career and promotional prospects, baning them or ridicule would only increase support for them.

So you are saying woman and men only networking/support organisation are only acceptable for situations when the sex in question is in the minority, what happens when it get to equilibrium should the organisation disband?

I still thing being bothered by men only organisations is a side show to very real issues that affect women every day such as the cost of child care, the lack of flexible working arrangements and so on.