Táiniste snubs men-only dinner in Georgia

shoos

TÁNAISTE EAMON GILMORE has been criticised for dropping a visit to the US state of Georgia where he would have attended a men-only dinner in the city of Savannah.

Gilmore would have attended an anniversary dinner for the Hibernian Society of Savannah tonight had he visited the city which holds one of the biggest St Patrick’s Day celebrations in the States.

Previous Fianna Fáil ministers have attended the celebrations in Savannah but the Tánaiste told the Irish Times that he would not be going, saying he did not believe in “segregation either on a gender basis or any other basis”.

The Fianna Fáil TD and spokesperson on transport and tourism, Timmy Dooley, said he was disappointed that the Tánaiste had ‘snubbed’ a visit to Savannah in order to avoid the Hibernian dinner.

“I find it very disappointing that in the year of The Gathering, the Tánaiste has snubbed the second largest St Patrick’s Day Parade in the USA because he appears to have personal issues with the Hibernian Society,” Dooley said in a statement today.

More of the article here - http://www.thejournal.ie/eamon-gilmore-all-male-dinner-savannah-834916-Mar2013/?utm_source=facebook

I'm really surprised to hear that he refused, I couldn't have imagined many of the men in the Dáil to give a toss about men-only clubs or dinners. But seeing this, I have to think fair to play to Gilmore!

There's been the usual response of "women have their female only dinners and events all the time", "it's PC gone mad" etc.

But female only events, especially in the field of politics or business, are there because females are a minority. I really don't see the weight behind that argument.

Thoughts?

dissed doc

shoos wrote: »

More of the article here - http://www.thejournal.ie/eamon-gilmore-all-male-dinner-savannah-834916-Mar2013/?utm_source=facebook

I'm really surprised to hear that he refused, I couldn't have imagined many of the men in the Dáil to give a toss about men-only clubs or dinners. But seeing this, I have to think fair to play to Gilmore!

There's been the usual response of "women have their female only dinners and events all the time", "it's PC gone mad" etc.

But female only events, especially in the field of politics or business, are there because females are a minority. I really don't see the weight behind that argument.

Thoughts?

I think it's a sign of massive insecurity. You have to meet people on their terms; the world will not adjust itself to your own personal moral code, no matter how righteous or not it is.

You buy in your language, but you sell in others'. A complete failure and serves only to grandstand political immaturity. Being unable to engage with other people on their terms, while remaining secure in your own stance and beliefs, does not serve long term economic or political advancement.

B0jangles

Would you say the same if it was a whites only event?

dissed doc

B0jangles wrote: »

Would you say the same if it was a whites only event?

That is a very poor rebuttle and nothing to do with the OP; it's a cheap shot to avoid having to confront the lack of political capital in our government.

B0jangles

dissed doc wrote: »

That is a very poor rebuttle and nothing to do with the OP; it's a cheap shot to avoid having to confront the lack of political capital in our government.

I disagree, I think it's a perfectly valid comparison which you are rejecting because you are uncomfortable with the position it puts you in.

cosbloodymick

B0jangles wrote: »

Would you say the same if it was a whites only event?

Women can have women only events and black people can have black only events such as the MOBO awards but if the white male has anything just for himself he is the one who is labelled racist and discriminatory.
Shocking double standards imo.

efb

I fully support our tainiste's decision

B0jangles

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Women can have women only events and black people can have black only events such as the MOBO awards but if the white male has anything just for himself he is the one who is labelled racist and discriminatory.
Shocking double standards imo.

Yes and when's White History Month?!

It's PC gorn MAAAAAD!

im invisible

whenever i hear 'Savannah' i think of this

mikemac1

There's a blast from the past.

Only lasted one season as I remember

The Big Red Button

I respect and support his decision.

It would've been very easy for him to quietly go along with the plans, despite personal misgivings. Nice to see a politician with a moral compass and the guts to follow it, even though it won't be a popular move in political terms.

cosbloodymick

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

I respect and support his decision.

It would've been very easy for him to quietly go along with the plans, despite personal misgivings. Nice to see a politician with a moral compass and the guts to follow it, even though it won't be a popular move in political terms.

I think the opposite. He is trying to get some political capital by painting a group of people who are having a dinner together as some sort of mysoginists. If it were a women only group having a dinner he would never snub the invite imo. Moral compass and guts are not 2 words I would associate with Gilmore,as proven when the 1st Lisbon treaty referendum was defeated and he publicly stated to the Irish people that the treaty was dead in the water and there would not be a second vote while at the same time telling a bunch of US diplomats that he would support a second referendum.

Macha

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Women can have women only events and black people can have black only events such as the MOBO awards but if the white male has anything just for himself he is the one who is labelled racist and discriminatory.
Shocking double standards imo.

Quite probably because white men dominate most other structures and don't need to artificially create any.

Seriously this isn't rocket science.

clairefontaine

Macha wrote: »

Quite probably because white men dominate most other structures and don't need to artificially create any.

Seriously this isn't rocket science.

Yes but Catholics don't. Makes it more complicated in Georigia.

drunkmonkey

He can make his way to every crack pot frindge gathering and support things a majority of the country disagree with yet when it comes to supporting us abroad he insults a long standing Irish community on some delusional equal rights high ground.
Seriously time he resigned he's let Ireland down bad this time. Disgraceful conduct.
Is he going to boycott ladies day in Galway this year? Twirp.

CiDeRmAn

Fair play to him.
One to many of these stupid lodges of old and entirely made up traditions.
And, we always hear those trumpeting about the "injustice" of it all, that's nonsense.
White wealthy men, particularly in such organisations organisations, are ultimately representing a social division maintained by this class, dividing us into those who are entitled and those who are there to serve, a complete anethema to Labour's ethos and position.
Small wonder then that Fianna Fail express such shock, given that since the formation of the state they have supported, with relish, the maintenance of a landed merchant class, and those who serve them too.

So, well done Mr Gilmore, somewhere O'Casey is shedding a tear....

flutered

he does what he thinks will get him the most kudos, usually they get him flack, pillock

drunkmonkey

He aims directly for the feminist vote, I don't get it, does he think all Irish women are feminists? I think most Irish women are level headed enough to not see any harm in it, what's his end game does he want to see the ICA renamed the Irish country women and men's association?

moany

Its a bit late of him to be taken the moral high ground is'nt it.Particulary since he sold himself down the river a long time ago .

meeeeh

I'm sure it has nothing to do with Labour's position in opinion pools. After all we are talking about a party which signed any pledge they could get their hands on before the last election. Cynic in me believes it was a PR stunt and I think that the cynic is right. Not that anybody would know about the dinner before but it makes news when he doesn't attend (and the genius from FF is nicely playing along). Wake me up when he actually takes a stand in the way that matters.

Woodward

Macha wrote: »

Quite probably because white men dominate most other structures and don't need to artificially create any.

Seriously this isn't rocket science.

You are assuming that they act in the interest of white men. It isnt like the Stonecutters where they all sit around drinking beer and plot world domination

Macha

Woodward wrote: »

You are assuming that they act in the interest of white men. It isnt like the Stonecutters where they all sit around drinking beer and plot world domination

I don't really care if they're the stone cutters or some sort of benign brotherhood looking out for what they think are the best interests of minorities (which always sounds weird when taking about women, given we are half the population).

It's about having our own seat at the table.

And to point out the blindingly obvious, quite often women's rights have progressed alongside women's participation in public life and representation in public office.

Fiery mutant

Strange how the Tanaiste doesn't seem to mind playing golf in Portmarnock when it suits him. Portmarnock being a men only members club. But sure then he wouldn't be able to hang with the well heeled would he, when of course snubbing a dinner in the states will help to make him look like he is standing on the moral high ground won't it.

Double standards of the man is sickening.

bette

Next he'll be cribbing about the Ladies Mini Marathon in Dublin. That's another story that is!

bette

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Strange how the Tanaiste doesn't seem to mind playing golf in Portmarnock when it suits him. Portmarnock being a men only members club. But sure then he wouldn't be able to hang with the well heeled would he, when of course snubbing a dinner in the states will help to make him look like he is standing on the moral high ground won't it.

Double standards of the man is sickening.

More sickening than his double chin?

hattoncracker

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mayor-snubbed-from-St-Patricks-Day-celebrations-due-to-Hibernian-Society-male-only-rules-143038926.html?mob-ua=Y


He was right not to go.. They're eejits!

He's dead right, I'm sure all the members of his party in the Seanad do the same thing when they have the opportunity to attend gender-segregated events. I'll let you look that up yourselves.

Fiery mutant

bette wrote: »

More sickening than his double chin?

Ok, you win.

The Big Red Button

It's kind of a 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

Whatever his motives for going or not going, if he had gone to it, there'd be people giving out about it too and saying that he's sexist and shouldn't have gone.

cosbloodymick

Macha wrote: »

Quite probably because white men dominate most other structures and don't need to artificially create any.

Seriously this isn't rocket science.

You're right, its not rocket science its double standards.

Systemic Risk

I am a bit conflicted on this one. For disclosure purposes im an irish male. I think everyone should be entitled to set up their own cultural and networking groups. Why should irish males be any different.

However i can see an issue if this is a large demographic who use the society for business purposes and favour members of the society for contracts etc, especially if this causes monopolies for the society/ difficulties for non members to operate in certain markets.

Also if public officials are members and favour other members of the society for public contracts then that is wrong. Not saying this is what happens though.

The funny part of the story however is that the society came out and said they were surprised by the comments as Gilmore hadn't been invited to the event. Sounds like political point scoring to me.

percy212

Tell me this isn't true.

Fiery mutant wrote: »

Portmarnock being a men only members club.

krudler

percy212 wrote: »

Tell me this isn't true.

It is, men only.

The Big Red Button

krudler wrote: »

It is, men only.

Had a quick Google, only because I found it all so unbelievable. Found this on the Clontarf Golf Club website.

Lady Members(other than Ordinary and Five-Day Members)
Mondays (and Tuesdays following Monday Bank Holidays) – May play all day. Priority on Course if playing in Competition of the Day.
Tuesdays – May commence play up to 4.30 p.m. (subject to Society Outings having rights on 1st tee). May play after 7.00 p.m.
Wednesdays – May commence play up to 4.30 p.m. (subject to Men’s competition rights on 1st tee). May play after 7.00 p.m.
Thursday – May play all day (but no competition/priority rights on course).
Friday – May commence play up to 4.30 p.m. (subject to Society Outings having rights on 1st tee). May play after 7.00 p.m.
Saturday – Winter Time: May play after 2.30 p.m. Summer Time: May play after 3.30 p.m.
Sunday – Winter Time: May start from 1st tee after 1.30 p.m. alternating with men. Summer Time – May start from 1st tee between 11.30 a.m. and 1.00 p.m. and after 3.00 p.m. provided a time sheet is not in operation.
Are not eligible to play in weekend leagues.

Ugh.

drunkmonkey

There's very few men in the country that have any problem whatsoever with a girls club, what's the problem with men having a club?

Take the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts it's no more a "ugh" situation than portmornack club. Should we disband the girl scouts when we've the ICA destroyed. If you want to kill men clubs your going to have to kill the girls one's as well. That's something I think very few people want to see but Gilmore is pushing us in that direction.

The Big Red Button

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's very few men in the country that have any problem whatsoever with a girls club, what's the problem with men having a club?

Take the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts it's no more a "ugh" situation than portmornack club. Should be disband the scouts when we've the ICA destroyed. If you want to kill men clubs your going to have to kill the girls one's as well. That's something I think very few people want to see but Gilmore is pushing us in that direction.

Yeah, do that! I have no problem with the boy scouts and/or girl scouts being disbanded either - I was never a member, and don't see the point of such segregation, myself!

Don't really see the issue with there being a men only club tbh

krudler

bluewolf wrote: »

Don't really see the issue with there being a men only club tbh

Same tbh, private clubs can have their own rules, plenty of female only ones, can't see why men can't have the same.

Ambersky

I really welcome men refusing to take part in events, clubs and societies designed to exclude women.
I would like the men who do so to be consistent in this stance but I am grateful that they do it at all, particularly when it makes headlines and makes people aware that this kind of thing still happens.
Thanks Guys even if you just dont join clubs etc for excluding women out of a natural sense of justice I think that is great.

Gemma Hussey is on the Marian Finucane radio show this morning and she told of how she was refused a place at that dinner years ago, because she was a woman and even though she was an elected Government Minister. She said Garrett Fitzgerald was deeply uncomfortable with what was happening at that time and that he was an instinctual feminist that hated the way Gemma Hussey was treated.
The exclusion of women is all part of the history of the Hibernian Society, a conservative association of Irish Emigrants who seem to be stuck in a time warp and still think they somehow represent "Irishness" by portraying a male dominated, anti woman, catholic, anti gay, heterosexual, image of us abroad.

The problem with all male associations like this, golf clubs and all male secret societies is the businessmen networking aspect of things.
This has the effect of keeping women out of these circles of power and influence and is designed to do so.
There is a lot of resistance and denial to this idea yet there is a lot of information and advice available on how to use for example, golf to seal buisness deals. Golf membership is given, or use to be given as part of a perk of certain jobs. If there is no problem recognising membership of such clubs as being advantageous in buisness why is there such denial that excluding women from these buisness connections would be unfairly disadvantages to women.
The Portmarnock all male golf club, which has already been mentioned, denies this association with unfair all male buisness networking. If you Google "All male golf club buisness networking" you wont get much information on unfair buisness opportunity to males but if you Google "Buisness networking in Golf" there will be a lot of mostly male advice and stories of how important golf is to buisness networking.
From Forbes http://www.forbes.com/sites/cherylsnappconner/2013/01/24/19-tips-for-closing-a-deal-on-the-golf-course/

Another networking expert, George Souri, owner of UltraPawn and “dealmaker extraordinaire,” notes that he has closed hundreds of deals through golfing, though not necessarily while playing golf. According to George and other experts, “You should use your time on the course to develop the relationship, not to sell a deal. Being overly eager to ‘talk shop’ will likely annoy your partner, or worse, affect his focus and game. A day of bad play is not going to help your chances for closing a deal.”

“Remember that more often than not, people make investments in people. A round of golf is a great time to demonstrate you are a smart, competent, and likeable person. If you are a thoughtful golfer who engages in good conversation on the course, you will increase your chances for closing a deal.” Are you convinced? To help your cause, we’ve compiled a series of 19 top tips from business golf experts who’ve offered their best ideas and advice:

Heres the KPMG Golf networking site http://www.golfbusinesscommunity.com/golf-business-forum-home/
The VIP Buisness Golf Network who can organise a visit to Georgia for you
http://www.vipbusinessgolfnetwork.com/
The list goes on and on, golf and buisness men clubs are ways to increase buisness opportunities and denial of women entry to such clubs keeps those buisness opportunities etc in male only hands.

Men or Women getting together in single sex groups for the enjoyment of single sex company, to have a laugh, to enjoy an activity, to share stories, to support one another, etc. I think is great, when there is no effort to maintain financial privilege, or access to resources, for one group only and to thereby exclude opportunities to the other group.

drunkmonkey

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

Yeah, do that! I have no problem with the boy scouts and/or girl scouts being disbanded either - I was never a member, and don't see the point of such segregation, myself!

Ugh, I hope your utopian gender less world never comes to pass.

Fiery mutant

Fluffy Bunny Rabid wrote: »

Had a quick Google, only because I found it all so unbelievable. Found this on the Clontarf Golf Club website.



Ugh.

Women are allowed to play in Portmarnock, but are not allowed to become members. Same as at Augusta in the States, which is probably the most famous course in the world, or one of the most famous.

Sonics2k

Let's be honest here, Gilmore would of gotten a bollockin' no matter what decision he went with.

Ambersky

The issue to my mind is not one of simply being allowed to play a game with the boys.
As far as I know Portmarnock has a position of restricted access for women and denial of full membership.
Restricted access can mean women can only play at certain times, in certain events and are restricted to certain areas eg there is segregation in certain of the club bars.
I think posters may be confusing male only golf clubs with mens clubs and womens clubs on the same course.
The mens golf clubs dont have a little get together and agree to meet up at agreed times in a certain place to enjoy one anothers company, they own the land, the buildings and the course itself which is one of the best in the country.
They own the land and the clubhouse for historical reasons, or because they were established at a time when most high earning professions had restricted access to women, political and economic power was in male hands and male clubs were used to create and sustain this culture. The Hibernian and some Golf clubs are just following an old outdated tradition.

krudler says
Same tbh, private clubs can have their own rules, plenty of female only ones, can't see why men can't have the same.

I dont know any women only golf clubs that own their own course land and buildings and that offer restricted memberships to their male guests in Ireland. Are there any?

The real question to my mind is, is this restricted access a restriction simply on access to bars, times allowed on the golf course etc or is it also a restriction on buisness networking opportunities or access to jobs.
The latter is a lot more difficult to prove but I see it as part of the tradition of these conservative clubs and societies.

The whole thing seems so privileged and snobby to me anyway that I find if difficult to really want women to join such a club but I know we need to encourage women in business and I think socially this kind of conservative outdated behaviour is not good for either men or women.
Friends tell me golf is great but I just cant disassociate it from all that bad history

lazygal

GOLF: Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden.

I know several women working in the more senior end of corporate Ireland who are incredibly frustrated by the old boys' network they are now encountering at this stage of their careers. There's a well founded belief that unless you went to a particular male private catholic collection of schools you're out of the loop networking wise (old boys' associations etc) and play golf at the right clubs, you're just not going to fulfill the unspoken requirements of getting into the next level of seniority.

pwurple

Ambersky wrote: »

I dont know any women only golf clubs that own their own course land and buildings and that offer restricted memberships to their male guests in Ireland. Are there any?

I don't know of any female only golf clubs, but there are plenty of ladies only gyms. Chains of them even.

But, a voice from the inside is often stronger than a voice from the outside, and this is why I think he should have attended.

The Corinthian

shoos wrote: »

There's been the usual response of "women have their female only dinners and events all the time", "it's PC gone mad" etc.

But female only events, especially in the field of politics or business, are there because females are a minority. I really don't see the weight behind that argument.

Yet Ivana Bacik, Gilmore's former running mate, was happy to organize a female only meeting to discuss how women should be exempted from custodial sentences in prisons in the Dail. Not sure how being in the minority in business or politics really fits in there, but Gilmore didn't seem to have a problem.

Or should meetings be held about child custody issues that only men may attend, seeing as men are a minority in that area?

Or, in the case of women-only associations, that openly admit to being about 'networking', should they not be allowed for industries, such as human resources, that are largely dominated by women? Maybe male-only primary school teacher associations are okay?

Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this "women are oppressed, so have a right to act like assholes" logic is? We're all oppressed somewhere in society; so should we all start applying the same logic?

As to Gilmore's cancellation, he did so while essentially on a diplomatic visit in the US. I would suggest we don't send him on any more such trips to the middle east, where we sell much of our beef and lamb products, as he may drop another clanger on the basis of some idiotic notion of principle.

clairefontaine

One apartheid breeds another and so the merry go round continues.

Gilmore et all go over there with their begging bowls out. Funny that a beggar can be a chooser but I suppose that is how deluded they are.

Let's hope he never gets invited to the Vatican or to any of the gender segregated schools of Ireland. It would be embarrassing to see him snub any of t them.

"Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this "women are oppressed, so have a right to act like assholes" logic is? We're all oppressed somewhere in society; so should we all start applying the same logic?"

Apparantly, yes, this is exactly what one should do, or so I have been told.

Legs.Eleven

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you not see how utterly ridiculous this "women are oppressed, so have a right to act like assholes" logic is? We're all oppressed somewhere in society; so should we all start applying the same logic?

Jesus what an overreaction. Who said this or even implied it?

flutered

some time back his comerade jan o sullivan refused to canvass for to keep u.s. military stopover flights in shannon, because they were/are against her principals, the flights were transfered to germany, the real teachoc frau merkel had no such qualms when she got give them the go ahead to fly into germany.

cosbloodymick

I once tried to gain admittance to a gym near my workplace but was refused on the grounds of my gender ie male.
This was definite discrimination on a gender basis. However I accepted that if a group of females wish to form a club then they have the freedom to choose who they admit to that club. Its quite possible that the ladies in that club discussed business and made business connections from time to time, and if they did, good for them .
Its wrong that the same freedoms are not available to men.

Galwayguy35

Gilmore was in a foreign country and his job is to drum up more business for this country, not snub any invites that he gets over there.

As someone else said it's no coincidence that he pulls this stunt when Labour are at rock bottom in the polls.

The hypocrisy of the guy makes me sick.