Non-paying passengers on Dublin Bus

thomasj

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

(Admittedly I only pay about 60% of the "street value" .. but nevertheless I do pay.)

You pay 100% of the street value for the ticket!

You are paying the advertised price for the ticket as of the start of the period the ticket is valid for

It may be installments over the year but if you look at the last payslip for the year it should total the cost price of the ticket.

The only discount you are getting is for paye/prsi. Because the taxsaver is a non taxable deduction, you are paying tax/prsi for the gross less that deduction which should total a couple of hundred saved over the year.

For the travel companies, theyre still getting the full price and you ARE paying the FULL PRICE.

Tripp

Couple weeks ago i was on a bus that goes from the north side of Dublin to the south side via town. In town, a male and a female got on who were "rough" looking, 40's look like there strung out. You know the type. They showed there passes and the driver asked to see the mans passes. The driver questioned the man about the pass and the driver obviously suspected it was a fake so he kept the pass and threw the couple off.

Very rare that ive seen a driver ask to see the pass when they show it. Drivers should ask to see every single pass close up instead of just getting a flash of it.

ezra_pound

dublinstevie wrote: »

Should only be oap and disabled passes.get rid of the rest as it is being abused.the amount of junkie scum with passes is unreal

Leave eer owh, will ye?

AlekSmart

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Alek, in fairness, I'm the first one to defend bus-drivers ... but I have seen the practice mentioned more than a few times.

Not at all Mrs O'B,I'm not saying it does'nt occur.

What I am challenging is Foggy_Lad's desire to portray it as an integral part of every Busdrivers day.

In the case of Dublin Bus with c.2500 drivers,the amount of times this could occur is very low,in fact if Foggy_Lad is claiming to witness it on Sunday Afternoons,then he must be virtually living on a Bus 24/7.

It is not the nature of the accusation itself,but rather the fact that it is yet another insinuation thrown malicioulsy out,as was the "Facilitating of Perversion" one,which I feel merits robust challenge and rebuttal.

I would also state that I have often had fellow staff members pay for their children's fares,which I suppose is a bit like my own late fathers refusal to use his Free Travel Pass as he thought it meant the Depatrtment felt he could not afford his own BusFare....the cheek of them sez he !!! :P

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not at all Mrs O'B,I'm not saying it does'nt occur.

What I am challenging is Foggy_Lad's desire to portray it as an integral part of every Busdrivers day.

For some it is seen as a perk of the job.

In the case of Dublin Bus with c.2500 drivers,the amount of times this could occur is very low,in fact if Foggy_Lad is claiming to witness it on Sunday Afternoons,then he must be virtually living on a Bus 24/7.

If even 10% of those drivers allow their friends and family on board without paying that is 250 x all those family and friends. I have seen this happen on buses on several occasions and it only required me to be aware of my surroundings rather than having to "live in" on the buses! Maybe those people had some kind of Family pass which they did not have to show to the driver?

It is not the nature of the accusation itself,but rather the fact that it is yet another insinuation thrown malicioulsy out,as was the "Facilitating of Perversion" one,which I feel merits robust challenge and rebuttal.

Nothing malicious about it, I actually think that bus and rail workers should be able to avail of low concessionary fares for the mode of transport they work on but breaking the rules is not something I agree with unless they are prepared to do the same with everyone.

I would also state that I have often had fellow staff members pay for their children's fares,

Glad to hear it and hope it spreads to all your fellow staff members.

ebbsy

Long time since I saw an inspector however ?

AltAccount

foggy_lad wrote: »

For some it is seen as a perk of the job.

Define "some".

foggy_lad wrote: »

If even 10% of those drivers allow their friends and family on board without paying that is 250 x all those family and friends. I have seen this happen on buses on several occasions

You seeing it on "several" occasions over (presumably) thousands and thousands of journeys equates to a 10% dishonesty rate among drivers???

These posts reflect far worse on you, Foggy, than they ever will on the bus driving population... :rolleyes:

Victor

AltAccount wrote: »

Define "some".

The "driver's mate" is a well known feature, primarily of urban buses. Some will be staff. Some, well who knows, but the driver? I do think it is getting rarer, especially as the drivers are more conscious of pedestrians and cyclists on the left side of the bus and need to be able to see the mirrors.

As for whole families, I don't know.

Weren't CIÉ staff once issued with a 'father and son'-type pass?

Mrs OBumble

thomasj wrote: »

You pay 100% of the street value for the ticket!

You are paying the advertised price for the ticket as of the start of the period the ticket is valid for

It may be installments over the year but if you look at the last payslip for the year it should total the cost price of the ticket.

The only discount you are getting is for paye/prsi. Because the taxsaver is a non taxable deduction, you are paying tax/prsi for the gross less that deduction which should total a couple of hundred saved over the year.

For the travel companies, theyre still getting the full price and you ARE paying the FULL PRICE.

Not quite way I see it.

I buy a Galway city monthly ticket. If I purchased this at Galway bus station, the cost is €61.50. But because I buy it thru work, the amount that is deducted from my wage packet is roughly 60% of that amount. So it feels to me like I'm only paying 60%, even if the bus-company is getting the full amount.

But the moral of the story is ... not everyone who flashes a pass when they get on is getting taxpayer-paid travel.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have seen this happen on buses on several occasions and it only required me to be aware of my surroundings rather than having to "live in" on the buses! Maybe those people had some kind of Family pass which they did not have to show to the driver?

Excellent,at last clarity.....You have "seen".

No doubt you have also listened closely to whatever exchange took place between the Driver and whoever you "seen" on these several occasions.

So you equally admit that you actually do not know what relationship these other people were to each other or to the Busdriver in question ?

I wonder how many of these other individuals were,perhaps,DSP Free Pass holders who neglected to display their pass to your good-self Foggy ?.....Do you think that could even be possible....Nah.....surely not ?

So,essentially it has to be wrung from you that you had NO involvement or understanding of what actual exchange occurred between Driver and Passenger,other than the one which might fit your particular mind-set at the time ?

By all means embark on a crusade to gather specific evidence of such practices,ensuring that (As with the Busáras perimiter stop thread) your camera is primed and ready to record.

Then,having gathered all the evidence you think necessary to validate your own thinking,present it to the relevant authorities with your complaint concerning the individuals concerned.

In the meantime,could you perhaps desist from posting your individual en-passant observations off as applying generally to everybody in my line of work ?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Excellent,at last clarity.....You have "seen".

No doubt you have also listened closely to whatever exchange took place between the Driver and whoever you "seen" on these several occasions.

So you equally admit that you actually do not know what relationship these other people were to each other or to the Busdriver in question ?

I wonder how many of these other individuals were,perhaps,DSP Free Pass holders who neglected to display their pass to your good-self Foggy ?.....Do you think that could even be possible....Nah.....surely not ?

So,essentially it has to be wrung from you that you had NO involvement or understanding of what actual exchange occurred between Driver and Passenger,other than the one which might fit your particular mind-set at the time ?

By all means embark on a crusade to gather specific evidence of such practices,ensuring that (As with the Busáras perimiter stop thread) your camera is primed and ready to record.

Then,having gathered all the evidence you think necessary to validate your own thinking,present it to the relevant authorities with your complaint concerning the individuals concerned.

In the meantime,could you perhaps desist from posting your individual en-passant observations off as applying generally to everybody in my line of work ?

Well if a "mate" or work colleague of the driver's boards the bus and starts to chat to the driver while his female partner(sister/mother/cousin) boards and gets waved past by the driver and she then tells her partner she is going upstairs with the kids I would assume as would most others that they are getting a free pass from the driver!

AltAccount

foggy_lad wrote: »

Well if a "mate" or work colleague of the driver's boards the bus and starts to chat to the driver while his female partner(sister/mother/cousin) boards and gets waved past by the driver and she then tells her partner she is going upstairs with the kids I would assume as would most others that they are getting a free pass from the driver!

Is there a possibility that they are a family with DSP passes, who take that bus at the same time every day, and therefore the driver doesn't hassle them for the pass after seeing it several hundred times already?

Plausible?

steamengine

What about the actual incident (fact - relative of mine) of a senior citizen who found herself stranded in Dublin city centre without her pass or money, and boarded the bus - explained the situation to the driver, who kindly let her travel home ?

What about the many times I've observed bus drivers waiting that little bit longer at bus stops for senior citizens who hadn't quite reached the stop because they were not as mobile as they used to be ?

What about all the 'thanks' they actually get from their alighting passengers including me ? They must be doing a whole lot right IMO.

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Well if a "mate" or work colleague of the driver's boards the bus and starts to chat to the driver while his female partner(sister/mother/cousin) boards and gets waved past by the driver and she then tells her partner she is going upstairs with the kids I would assume as would most others that they are getting a free pass from the driver!

Foggy -- I have a big problem with posts like this -- you don't know for sure, you're making a big leap and than using that for the bases of what amounts to attacking bus drivers.

As suggested above it could be something you have not thought of. It might be best thinking twice before posting such inflammatory posts? Can you back them up etc?

Warning to all: please keep it civil!

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not at all Mrs O'B,I'm not saying it does'nt occur.

What I am challenging is Foggy_Lad's desire to portray it as an integral part of every Busdrivers day.

In the case of Dublin Bus with c.2500 drivers,the amount of times this could occur is very low,in fact if Foggy_Lad is claiming to witness it on Sunday Afternoons,then he must be virtually living on a Bus 24/7.

It is not the nature of the accusation itself,but rather the fact that it is yet another insinuation thrown malicioulsy out,as was the "Facilitating of Perversion" one,which I feel merits robust challenge and rebuttal.

I would also state that I have often had fellow staff members pay for their children's fares,which I suppose is a bit like my own late fathers refusal to use his Free Travel Pass as he thought it meant the Depatrtment felt he could not afford his own BusFare....the cheek of them sez he !!! :P

When I worked for DCS years ago, it was common practice for bus workers and their families to travel free, nobody questioned the practice as everybody availed of it. Are you saying there has been an official crackdown on the practice since DCS became DB because I doubt it would be driven by bus workers themselves? I can only imagine any individual bus driver who took it upon himself to charge a colleague for his wife and family would have become very unpopular very quickly, particularly if they were from the same depot.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Well if a "mate" or work colleague of the driver's boards the bus and starts to chat to the driver while his female partner(sister/mother/cousin) boards and gets waved past by the driver and she then tells her partner she is going upstairs with the kids I would assume as would most others that they are getting a free pass from the driver!

Interesting,if predictable,follier-upper Foggy.

Not for the first time,do you make a broad spectrum generalization only follow it up with,what I contend is highly dubious accounts of what you just happened to overhear.

I must be somewhat cautious on this forum,however I cannot but describe the above post as,at least,fanciful.

Your were taken to task sometime back for another post regarding Irish Rail RPU Staff and their verbal exchanges with passengers,in which it was pointed out that you would really have to be VERY close to these occurences on an almost constant basis to support the type of posts which then follow.

If you have some personal vendetta with any personal group of CIE Road or Rail Staff,then at least be upfront and outline whatever it is that causes YOU these ongoing problems.

It is apparent that You do have significant and ongoing difficulties with a great swathe of Public Transport,covering Road and Rail,Public and Private.

These difficulties have covered,Staff,Vehicles,Premises and as many outside influences as can be found,with the common element being the shifting of goalposts whenever an individual complaint is addressed.

From my own perspective I can only quote Steamengine's post..

What about all the 'thanks' they actually get from their alighting passengers including me ? They must be doing a whole lot right IMO.

I get far more "Thank You's" and "Cheers" from my passengers than I do negative remarks (except when I leave somebody behind !)..Thats what the nature of the job is...mass transit...manages to suit most of it's users but not all of them.

I rather suspect that such a "Perfect System with Perfect Staff" simply does'nt exist.

AlekSmart

bmaxi wrote: »

When I worked for DCS years ago, it was common practice for bus workers and their families to travel free, nobody questioned the practice as everybody availed of it. Are you saying there has been an official crackdown on the practice since DCS became DB because I doubt it would be driven by bus workers themselves? I can only imagine any individual bus driver who took it upon himself to charge a colleague for his wife and family would have become very unpopular very quickly, particularly if they were from the same depot.

I've worked for CIE/BAC since 1973 and I'd have to differ with the "everybody availed of it" quote.

The issue I have with Foggy_Lad's post is his contention that such practices are as widespread as you describe from years ago.

I would rarely come across a fellow staff member travelling with his family now,and those that do,sometimes have a Wife/Partner with their own pass/ticket,and not afraid to use it either.

Foggy_Lad appears to have thrown this accusation out in an attempt to stifle the debate concerning fraudulent usage of the DSP pass.

However the comparison between 1.1 Million Persons legitimately covered by the DSP compared to approx 2,500 BAC driving staff tends to address the issue far more realistically.

foggy_lad

monument wrote: »

Foggy -- I have a big problem with posts like this -- you don't know for sure, you're making a big leap and than using that for the bases of what amounts to attacking bus drivers.

As suggested above it could be something you have not thought of. It might be best thinking twice before posting such inflammatory posts? Can you back them up etc?

Warning to all: please keep it civil!

Ok hopefully to clarify this, I have no reason to attack any bus drivers or other transport staff the vast majority do a brilliant job and many will do more than they have to just to help someone out, often allowing people travel if they are short a few cent for the fare(something that should be encouraged as it makes people feel better about using the bus). I have seen a few drivers seemingly allow others travel free but there may well be other information I am not aware of but what I refer to above is what happened about 18 months ago. It was not a big issue as I think drivers and their families should have concessionary fares at the least. In about four years I have seen at most 6-7 instances where it appeared that people were getting a pass from the driver so it is not widespread but I dont use Dublin buses daily. I apologise if I gave the impression that it is rampant.

I do have issues with large sections of society being labeled as scum and junkies just because some of the unfortunate people in receipt of free travel are unable to behave In public, most of which is brought about by the medical conditions that see these discarded people eligible for free travel.

I have an issue with people who whine and moan about bits of cardboard/beermats/cornflakes boxs being presented as travel documents yet these same people do nothing to stem the use of same. Why dont they just confiscate any and all illegible passes and any photopass cards presented without the actual pass or if the pass holder lives in one of the 5 listed urban centres confiscate any pass presented without the photopass. Another thing people could do is to make sure their elderly friends and family and neighbours have a legible pass with the photopass if required. People dont care so much for their elderly neighbours as they used to.

I supose a way of explaining how I view transport staff interaction with travel passes is that if I worked as a bus driver for any company and part of my duties was to sell tickets and check passes then that's what I would do.

If I was told only legible passes were acceptable then nobody regardless of their age or infirmity would get on without a properly legible pass. I would not question or even think about whether a person was disabled or an invalid or their age as the decision to grant them the pass has already been taken by the DSP as far as I am concerned.

I would look at the pass and check the colour and if it covers a named spouse if there were two persons presenting for travel. If there is a date of birth I would also check this against how old i think the Person is. I would check the address and if in a prescribed area with no photopass I would refuse the holder travel and confiscate the pass. Most drivers on buses especialy Dublin buses are expert at spotting passes and can check a pass in a second, but only when it is held up for them to see and once it is legible.

Basically I would follow the operational guidelines and if complaints are made to the bus or train company my ass is covered. It would not be my job to ask for identification apart from to check the signature on the back of the pass and for this any transport staff can request a sample of the pass holders signature. They cant insist on photo id or other id to verify the pass holders identity.

If people are upset by the rules and operational guidelines of the free travel scheme especially by the numbers eligible then they should write to the minister.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Ok hopefully to clarify this, I have no reason to attack any bus drivers or other transport staff the vast majority do a brilliant job and many will do more than they have to just to help someone out, often allowing people travel if they are short a few cent for the fare(something that should be encouraged as it makes people feel better about using the bus). I have seen a few drivers seemingly allow others travel free but there may well be other information I am not aware of but what I refer to above is what happened about 18 months ago. It was not a big issue as I think drivers and their families should have concessionary fares at the least. In about four years I have seen at most 6-7 instances where it appeared that people were getting a pass from the driver so it is not widespread but I dont use Dublin buses daily. I apologise if I gave the impression that it is rampant.

I have an issue with people who whine and moan about bits of cardboard/beermats/cornflakes boxs being presented as travel documents yet these same people do nothing to stem the use of same. Why dont they just confiscate any and all illegible passes and any photopass cards presented without the actual pass or if the pass holder lives in one of the 5 listed urban centres confiscate any pass presented without the photopass.

If people are upset by the rules and operational guidelines of the free travel scheme especially by the numbers eligible then they should write to the minister.

Thank you Foggy_Lad for this most welcome clarification of your thinking.

However,I can only assure you that DSP passes are checked and taken-up on a far more regular basis than you think.

As you say,your usage of BAC services is not frequent,so you'll have to accept my assurance that BAC drivers DO inspect and where possible take up dubious passes.

What you do not appear to grasp is the sheer scale of suspect Free Travel Documents which are in circulation.

Therein lies the problem,as if a BAC Driver were to attempt to perform even the most basic checks on ALL Free Travel Passes presented then NO service would be possible as Buses were held at the side of the road due to the resultant exchanges.

The scale of Free Travel Scheme abuse is substantial and significant and across all classifications.

Only yesterday I was roundly verbally trounced for for calling back an elderly lady with a Spouse/Partner document who waved her Daughter through with a "She's with me"....

I contested this and got a fare,but not without a dose of verbal about being the only driver who ever challenged her in over ten years etc etc....

It is worth pointing out that when DSP Free Travel Documents are taken-up and returned to the Department,the vast majority are simply re-issued without question,with only a very small number,often obvious forgeries,being forwarded to the Investigation Section for further action.

You are indeed correct when you speak of contacting the Minister,however it is not the Busdrivers who need to do the contacting,but rather the legitimate holders of Free Travel Passes themselves who now are at great risk of seeing their benefit whipped away from beneath them as the entire scheme falls asunder.

foggy_lad

It is not the bus or transport staffs job to seek out counterdeit passes sold by criminals etc that is something the DSP has to do but they have completly failed to sort out most of the fraudulant passes with just one tiny change to the rules of the scheme which would require all pass holders to possess and carry photo id at all times when using their free travel pass.

It is good to hear that I have misjudged the numbers of battered and dodgy passes being taken up and I add that if any confiscated battered scraps of travel pass and photopases were suspected of being dodgy a scissors would sort them out and rather than have the DSP post out an old battered ilegible card to the possibly legitimate holder they would have to issue a new card and photopass.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is not the bus or transport staffs job to seek out counterdeit passes sold by criminals etc that is something the DSP has to do but they have completly failed to sort out most of the fraudulant passes with just one tiny change to the rules of the scheme which would require all pass holders to possess and carry photo id at all times when using their free travel pass.

It is good to hear that I have misjudged the numbers of battered and dodgy passes being taken up and I add that if any confiscated battered scraps of travel pass and photopases were suspected of being dodgy a scissors would sort them out and rather than have the DSP post out an old battered ilegible card to the possibly legitimate holder they would have to issue a new card and photopass.

The official response,as late as last week from the Secretary General of the DSP,Ms Niamh O Donoghue is to point to the introduction of the New Social Welfare Services card as the means of addressing the issue.

This is only partly true,as by it's own admission the full issue of these Cards will take at least 5 years and during this "Transitionary Period" all Old -Format "Cornflakes Box" ducements will remain valid.

This is unsustainable and is only considered because the DSP is aware of the significant risk of negative reaction across the State if the alternative is adopted.

That alternative is the immediate ending of the Current DSP Free Travel Scheme.

Immediate cessation of Current Scheme,followed by Immediate Commencement of new Stand-Alone Free Travel Card with full enablement of the RF chip,as in LeapCard.

I would suggest that with proper application the entire active scheme membership could be transferred within 12 months.

Additionally,all Free Travel ID Cards would be issued only to individual applicants with NO automatic issuance based simply upon the benefit classification.

This of itself would abolish the nonsense of people who never use Public Transport recieving a document for which they have no use,never mind for which they did not apply.

All Free Travel Cards to have full Photo ID,with Spouse/Partner entitlement,if applicable,also requiring Photo ID.

WE simply do not have the time to spend faffing about with "Transitional Arrangements" as it merely allows time for the black-market providers to devise methods to curcumvent the new Card.....and they WILL try !

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

I've worked for CIE/BAC since 1973 and I'd have to differ with the "everybody availed of it" quote.

The issue I have with Foggy_Lad's post is his contention that such practices are as widespread as you describe from years ago.

I would rarely come across a fellow staff member travelling with his family now,and those that do,sometimes have a Wife/Partner with their own pass/ticket,and not afraid to use it either.

Foggy_Lad appears to have thrown this accusation out in an attempt to stifle the debate concerning fraudulent usage of the DSP pass.

However the comparison between 1.1 Million Persons legitimately covered by the DSP compared to approx 2,500 BAC driving staff tends to address the issue far more realistically.

When I referred to everybody I meant all grades, it wasn't as if it was something clandestine, being hidden from inspectors. Once someone produced a pass with the diagonal red band, (it might have been green for inspectors, I can't remember), even probationers who could produce a badge. I never knew of any conductor or driver who would take a fare from them and I never heard of any inspector who pulled anybody up on it, even those inspectors in the notorious Revenue Squad, one of whom regularly travelled with me. It's the sort of thing you would have heard. The fact you rarely meet colleagues who travel with their families is irrelevant, car ownership is much more common today than it was when I was with DCS and it is infinitely more comfortable to travel by car with a young family.
I was there until 1974, so we were contempories for a while, I'm very surprised the practice escaped your notice. It was not just your colleagues in the depot that turned a blind eye. I worked out of Conyngham Road but travelled with my wife and family on routes out of every depot in the city and never once was I charged, nor if the situation arose, would I have charged anyone, it was an unwritten rule.
I don't think it matters whether there are only 2500 bus workers in the city, if the practice continues, and I've stated earlier, I"d be very surprised if it didn't, then it is at least disingenuous of you to criticise others.

AlekSmart

bmaxi wrote: »

I don't think it matters whether there are only 2500 bus workers in the city, if the practice continues, and I've stated earlier, I"d be very surprised if it didn't, then it is at least disingenuous of you to criticise others.

The charge of being disingenuous is strenously denied m'lud.

You mistake my issue with Foggy as being personal criticism,it's not.

My criticism of Foggy's point stands,simply as the scenario he describes is far from the norm these days.

Indeed,as an apprentice in the Railway,we were not entitled to a DCS Bus Pass,but did recieve a yellow Block Release Pass for use between Home and Bolton St only.

Some apprentices did use this pass on a regular basis,and some even had them taken up,usually on the 21 or 21A,which resulted in a BIG hoo hah in front of the Head of the Apprentice Training Centre.

Otherwise it was a Staff Rate Commuter ticket which was deducted from your wages.

Even the DCS Stripe Bus Pass was in fact a resedential Pass,valid only between ones home and work location and for use when travelling to or from work only.

You ask if "The Practice" continues,of course it does,however it is now so rare as to be noteworthy,which of course makes it relevant that,today,one rarely comes across entire families travelling in the manner which Foggy describes as commonplace.

The main practice these days,tends to be dependent children utilising outdated ID cards whilst attending University,I have no hesitation in refusing to accept such a card,and very recently had a lad display one which had expired in May 2008,fully expecting me to nod him through..his expectations were sadly not met on this occasion.

I suppose my point is that both the level of such occurences and the manner in which they are dealt with have altered substantially over time.

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

The charge of being disingenuous is strenously denied m'lud.

You mistake my issue with Foggy as being personal criticism,it's not.

My criticism of Foggy's point stands,simply as the scenario he describes is far from the norm these days.

Indeed,as an apprentice in the Railway,we were not entitled to a DCS Bus Pass,but did recieve a yellow Block Release Pass for use between Home and Bolton St only.

Some apprentices did use this pass on a regular basis,and some even had them taken up,usually on the 21 or 21A,which resulted in a BIG hoo hah in front of the Head of the Apprentice Training Centre.

Otherwise it was a Staff Rate Commuter ticket which was deducted from your wages.

Even the DCS Stripe Bus Pass was in fact a resedential Pass,valid only between ones home and work location and for use when travelling to or from work only.

You ask if "The Practice" continues,of course it does,however it is now so rare as to be noteworthy,which of course makes it relevant that,today,one rarely comes across entire families travelling in the manner which Foggy describes as commonplace.

The main practice these days,tends to be dependent children utilising outdated ID cards whilst attending University,I have no hesitation in refusing to accept such a card,and very recently had a lad display one which had expired in May 2008,fully expecting me to nod him through..his expectations were sadly not met on this occasion.

I suppose my point is that both the level of such occurences and the manner in which they are dealt with have altered substantially over time.

My post was not to do with Foggy Lad in particular, you seem to have an antipathy toward anybody who might have a free travel pass. I was just pointing out the anomaly.
As regards Railway Workers, then no they wouldn't have been afforded the same privilege, much as bus workers did not get unlimited free travel on trains, the bus workers pass was immediately identifiable as such, I'm well aware of what the supposed limitations of the pass were and also that they were totally ignored, it was strictly a family arrangement.
The fact that the practice is not widespread these days is more to do with logistics, bus drivers just find it easier to move around by car with their families, this doesn't alter the fact that the practice still exists and that if they wanted to travel by bus they could, so, in my opinion, it's a sort of pot and kettle attitude on your part.

AlekSmart

bmaxi wrote: »

My post was not to do with Foggy Lad in particular, you seem to have an antipathy toward anybody who might have a free travel pass. I was just pointing out the anomaly.

As regards Railway Workers, then no they wouldn't have been afforded the same privilege, much as bus workers did not get unlimited free travel on trains, the bus workers pass was immediately identifiable as such, I'm well aware of what the supposed limitations of the pass were and also that they were totally ignored, it was strictly a family arrangement.

The fact that the practice is not widespread these days is more to do with logistics, bus drivers just find it easier to move around by car with their families, this doesn't alter the fact that the practice still exists and that if they wanted to travel by bus they could, so, in my opinion, it's a sort of pot and kettle attitude on your part.

Fraid not bmaxi,not a pot or kettle situation at all,you've gotten the wrong end of the stick I think ?

Corrrect me if I'm wrong,but you see me as having an antipathy to DSP Free Pass Holders ?

You could not be further from the truth,however your own views are not something I would wish to interfere with.

I see no problem with you pointing out anomalies,but I contend that the Staff Travel anomaly you seize upon has become so irrelevant that it merely diverts attention from the very real crisis facing the DSP's Free Travel Scheme.

It's equally true that "The Job" and it's practices has altered significantly over the past 30 years,as many of the current "Senior Men" will attest.
The "camraderie" and sense of belonging to one large grouping is no longer all pervasive,with often significant divisions between individual depots.

I would rarely now come across a colleague travelling off-duty in civvies,most on-bus Staff Travel tends to be in uniform and duty related.

I'm not certain what the "Family Arrangement" reference refers to,but perhaps thats in relation to Foggy's sightings of (supposed) Busdrivers regularly shepherding entire families past the Ticket Machine ?

Perhaps it's real,perhaps it's imagined,all I can say is that I've never had such a mass occurence on either a City or Provincial Service.

I guess you're just going to have to accept my word on this,but perhaps even immediately find a Busdriver who does nothing all day except usher Staff and Families past the machine.

The real issue,however rumbles on,with none of the agencies apparently prepared to address the problem of an ever expanding DSP Free Travel customer base coupled with a budget frozen at 2010 levels and a significant level of fraudulent usage.

The revelation that the DSP relies upon 1973 gathered data to disburse it's funding gives some indication to the chaos which exists within the Free Travel Scheme.

Unless somebody gets real about this crisis,the entire Free Travel Scheme risks collapse,and this will most certainly not be good for either those reliant on the DSP or Staff Members of Public Transport Companies large and small.

I'm sorry bmaxi,if you see antipathy in this point of view,but for me it's just about the single largest issue facing Irish Public Transport at the current time,Bar NONE.

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

Fraid not bmaxi,not a pot or kettle situation at all,you've gotten the wrong end of the stick I think ?

Corrrect me if I'm wrong,but you see me as having an antipathy to DSP Free Pass Holders ?

You could not be further from the truth,however your own views are not something I would wish to interfere with.

I see no problem with you pointing out anomalies,but I contend that the Staff Travel anomaly you seize upon has become so irrelevant that it merely diverts attention from the very real crisis facing the DSP's Free Travel Scheme.

It's equally true that "The Job" and it's practices has altered significantly over the past 30 years,as many of the current "Senior Men" will attest.
The "camraderie" and sense of belonging to one large grouping is no longer all pervasive,with often significant divisions between individual depots.

I would rarely now come across a colleague travelling off-duty in civvies,most on-bus Staff Travel tends to be in uniform and duty related.

I'm not certain what the "Family Arrangement" reference refers to,but perhaps thats in relation to Foggy's sightings of (supposed) Busdrivers regularly shepherding entire families past the Ticket Machine ?

Perhaps it's real,perhaps it's imagined,all I can say is that I've never had such a mass occurence on either a City or Provincial Service.

I guess you're just going to have to accept my word on this,but perhaps even immediately find a Busdriver who does nothing all day except usher Staff and Families past the machine.

The real issue,however rumbles on,with none of the agencies apparently prepared to address the problem of an ever expanding DSP Free Travel customer base coupled with a budget frozen at 2010 levels and a significant level of fraudulent usage.

The revelation that the DSP relies upon 1973 gathered data to disburse it's funding gives some indication to the chaos which exists within the Free Travel Scheme.

Unless somebody gets real about this crisis,the entire Free Travel Scheme risks collapse,and this will most certainly not be good for either those reliant on the DSP or Staff Members of Public Transport Companies large and small.

I'm sorry bmaxi,if you see antipathy in this point of view,but for me it's just about the single largest issue facing Irish Public Transport at the current time,Bar NONE.

You certainly don't come across to me in that way, judging by previous threads in this forum
The family arrangement I referred to had nothing to do with employees' families, it was a case of recognising "one of your own" by the pass he presented. If he had his family with him he wasn't charged, simple as that. It's obvious practices will have changed over the years but I'm willing to bet this one has not, it just may not be as frequent but it still happens and I find it hard to believe that in twenty years you have never come across even one instance of it.
There has always been a division between depots often because of which union was prevalent but at the end of the day, if you were a busman that's all that counted

AlekSmart

bmaxi wrote: »

You certainly don't come across to me in that way, judging by previous threads in this forum
The family arrangement I referred to had nothing to do with employees' families, it was a case of recognising "one of your own" by the pass he presented. If he had his family with him he wasn't charged, simple as that. It's obvious practices will have changed over the years but I'm willing to bet this one has not, it just may not be as frequent but it still happens and I find it hard to believe that in twenty years you have never come across even one instance of it.
There has always been a division between depots often because of which union was prevalent but at the end of the day, if you were a busman that's all that counted

You can bet as much as you like (another old Bus workers pastime that has all but disappeared from the daily work scene),however I think it'll be difficult to find Foggy's Busdriver,Spouse and Family travellin regularly together for nowt scenario.

I'd nearly go as far as suggesting that most staff these days would'nt even consider it ?

Back in the day,the responsibility was all lumped onto the Conductor,so the happy family were in the clear no matter what.

Since OPO,and more particularly the advent of the 1996 Dublin Bus Bye Laws,the expedient of making the passenger responsible for their own ticketing has altered perceptions too.

No longer does an RCU Inspector immediately make a bee line back to the Conductor/Driver upon finding a misfare or failure to collect situation,because it's 100% down to the passenger themselves to be in possession of their ticket/pass.

However,if it will satisfy your yearning,you can of course take human nature and discretion into account,and allocate a number to define the "practice"...

If it helps,I'd suggest that I have "used my discretion" and allowed far more "Pass Holder Only" holders to whoosh on a family member/random partner in one day than I have ever been faced by a Busdriver lookin to take his mot/fella on with him.

Earlier this evenin I was presented with a suitably obscured CIE ID card by a young gent in O C St,who jibbed when I asked to see the card..."I use it for college sez he and I'm not givin it to you"...his buddy simply paid a fare and walked on,but my man was'nt for payin his fare so he was offered the option of leaving,which he reluctantly took.

Perhaps I should arrange to record such events in an attempt to demonstrate what actually occurs in the main these days.

Of course there will be times when a Wife/Husband/Boy/Girl friend or the 6 children will be nodded through,but you'll really have to wait a while if you consider it to still be an everyday occurence.

At this stage the topic is circular,so agreeing to differ seems about the least wasteful approach ?

lucernarian

AlekSmart wrote: »

Earlier this evenin I was presented with a suitably obscured CIE ID card by a young gent in O C St,who jibbed when I asked to see the card..."I use it for college sez he and I'm not givin it to you"...his buddy simply paid a fare and walked on,but my man was'nt for payin his fare so he was offered the option of leaving,which he reluctantly took.

Is this a PTI card you're referring to as issued to dependents? That was quite the bit of chancery, even if it had BAC written on it.

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

You can bet as much as you like (another old Bus workers pastime that has all but disappeared from the daily work scene),however I think it'll be difficult to find Foggy's Busdriver,Spouse and Family travellin regularly together for nowt scenario.

I'd nearly go as far as suggesting that most staff these days would'nt even consider it ?

Back in the day,the responsibility was all lumped onto the Conductor,so the happy family were in the clear no matter what.

Since OPO,and more particularly the advent of the 1996 Dublin Bus Bye Laws,the expedient of making the passenger responsible for their own ticketing has altered perceptions too.

No longer does an RCU Inspector immediately make a bee line back to the Conductor/Driver upon finding a misfare or failure to collect situation,because it's 100% down to the passenger themselves to be in possession of their ticket/pass.

However,if it will satisfy your yearning,you can of course take human nature and discretion into account,and allocate a number to define the "practice"...

If it helps,I'd suggest that I have "used my discretion" and allowed far more "Pass Holder Only" holders to whoosh on a family member/random partner in one day than I have ever been faced by a Busdriver lookin to take his mot/fella on with him.

Earlier this evenin I was presented with a suitably obscured CIE ID card by a young gent in O C St,who jibbed when I asked to see the card..."I use it for college sez he and I'm not givin it to you"...his buddy simply paid a fare and walked on,but my man was'nt for payin his fare so he was offered the option of leaving,which he reluctantly took.

Perhaps I should arrange to record such events in an attempt to demonstrate what actually occurs in the main these days.

Of course there will be times when a Wife/Husband/Boy/Girl friend or the 6 children will be nodded through,but you'll really have to wait a while if you consider it to still be an everyday occurence.

At this stage the topic is circular,so agreeing to differ seems about the least wasteful approach ?

Ok. Sticking to the core of the discussion. You've gone from "it doesn't happen" to "it may happen" to "I've allowed it myself", full marks to you for honesty.
As regards whose is responsible for passengers paying their fare, why were new by laws required? When I first joined DCS, back when there were no doors or power steering or automatic gearboxes, every bus carried an extract from the by-laws governing "carriage of passengers for reward", this was mounted inside the door of the lower saloon. and conductors and drivers were supposed to familiarise themselves with it. In it it stated that "intending passengers must state their destination and tender the correct fare', and "all passengers must retain their ticket for inspection'. All tickets issued carried a reference, albeit as gaelige , to it. Seems clear to me that the onus was squarely on the passenger to have a ticket and to have paid the correct fare. There were of course, conductors who made it their business to issue as few tickets as possible but that's a separate issue.
We both know that CIE, as an entity, is choked with rules and regulations and we both know that most of them might as well be printed on clouds for all the attention paid to them, both at management and worker level so I think the days of a bus driver's wife being frog marched off a bus by an inspector for not having a ticket are far away.
You have referred on a couple of occasions to students travelling without up to date ID, or people having bogus travel passes, I don't know why this is, all my posts have referred specifically to bus workers travelling with their families.

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

Those people could well be carers for a family member; relative or neighbour and entitled to free teavel because of that.

edit....hadn't read answers to this.