One in 2 Austrians believe Hitler's rule had some positive aspects.

tonyroc

Well he wasn't "the" most evil man in history, but he was one of them.


NO we will leave that one to the almighty himself with his funny sense of humour!

He also would have got rid of the Irish i think

Latchy

Hitler had to be very singminded in his abitions and needed many such like people to help achive them but he was a map leader who even when the tide was turning on the Nazis ,had unrealistic expectations of the army on the field of battle ( who achieved a lot byond expectations and lost it as quickly ) His failure to leave the major final strategic decisions to his generals was to cost him and them the war and It's no wonder at the end that some generals took no heed of his instructions which saved the lifes of many German soldiers .

catallus

The point about his generals not being at fault is a bit hazy; Hitler gave the overall strategic orders, he didn't decide what units to send where. It was the generals who made the tactical decisions, which I know are ultimately dependent on the strategy, but the line that Hitler over-ruled his military commanders is a bit of a pat argument when explaining why they lost the war.

That said, they were fighting an enemy in the east who sent wave after wave after wave after wave after wave after wave of men and tanks against them.

After the war the Allies interviewed the enemy generals and tacticians (the biography and writings of Liddell-Hart are very interesting on this) and it seems the fact is that the Allies in the west were simply smarter and had the advantage due to greater military intelligence, and the Allies in the east were simply way too strong man-power-wise.

Latchy

Even when they set down to plan it all , it was still highly ambitious of Hitler and his generals ( to say the least ) to think that they could fight a war on the western and eastern fronts ,later followed by another in North Africa and the Mediterranean but the early sucess in the low countrys, parts of eastern Europe and Scandinavia against weak opposition might have led them to belive that anything was possible .

It's been said over and over and over again again but something simple like working out what damage the Russian winter could do to men and machinery was badly overlooked and the Germans ,after gaining so much territory, lost some key battles as a result .

When the first troops landed on D Day itself ,Hitler was tucked up in bed with instructions not to be disturbed and vital hrs were lost, so nothing was coming from German High command until it was to late but if a snr general had the order or power himself to unlese the 3 panzer divisions available on Normandy ,the outcome of that particular conflict might have been different ... at least until the allies came up with something different .

catallus

Yeah, I guess if D-day failed they would have got through another way eventually; my reading of it is it was just a race to Berlin between the Allies themselves. The Russians got there first by a hair's breadth. Thank god for Stalin, eh?

Latchy

Well the Russian only got there first because the last thing America wanted was to be left with the massive migraine of how to police and feed post war Germany so The Russians, much to the horror of the German civillian population , were allowed push on into Berlin .

If General Patton had his way he would have not only pushed onto Berlin but wanted to push the Russians back to some point of place in Eastern Europe so the pact of looking after Germany fell to America ,Britain ,France and Russia and was the next best option .

catallus wrote: »

Thank god for Stalin, eh?

He was a paroniod coward ...your obiously a fan of his .

catallus

That's some pretty revisionist stuff Latchy... do you really believe the west would have permitted a loss of ground if they had the military capacity to get there first?

Patton took his orders the same as Hitler's generals did.

I know, I know they had Potsdam and everything etc. etc.

Ed: Maybe revisionist is the wrong word, I meant cliched.

Latchy

catallus wrote: »

That's some pretty revisionist stuff Latchy... do you really believe the west would have permitted a loss of ground if they had the military capacity to get there first?

Tht's just it catallus ,after the long haul from Normandy the Americans were short on all the necessary arms ,transport ,equimpment etc , to keep up with what would have been required to push the Russians back and with their battle weary troops (who had fought on many fronts and were still stretched all over Europe ) they wern't going to send thousends of new fresh , unseasoned , rookie troops on such an endeavour .

Patton took his orders the same as Hitler's generals did.

Patton was considerd to gung ho for Eisenhower and other top brass and they were very afraid ( with good reason to ) of what he might have gotten them into .

I spent my own time over the years studying ,long before any internet so cliched is a cliche ...it's all there in post WW 2 war History .

catallus

I don't think they would have fought a hot war over Berlin, whatever the circumstances.

Latchy

Historians have a field day on what the outcome and map of Europe would have been like had The Americans taken Berlin instead of Stalin but behind the scenes it was the western politicians ,not the military who were calling the shots on that .

I myself would have loved it if they had kicked Joe Stalins arse all the way to the south China seas ...:P

southsiderosie

starskey77 wrote: »

hitler was wrong in some aspects ie the jews ok banish them to madagascar
but he was right in others the soviet threat. In saying that today we have one germany that controls europe whats the diferance

Why do people keep making these kinds of comments in any thread involving Germany, regardless of the subject? Hitler didn't round up Irish politicians and force them to bail out private banks. Nor was Ireland forced into the euro. And last I checked, the Germans haven't rounded up Roma and gay people to put them in death camps.

Please leave your anti-German hysteria for a thread that doesn't involve the mastermind of one of the worst atrocities in modern history.

Andrew Purfield

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

You do know that Austrians are notoriously bigoted, right?

Starting to believe this. At least I have seen it myself and even been on the receiving end. Came across this thread this morning on the way to work(I work in North Austria atm) and it's pretty disturbing.

This poll wasn't all that long ago and the populist right has done very well in recent elections.

A word to the wise. The Police State is very much an active part of life here.

If you ever live over here never even do something as minor as forget your tram ticket or bus ticket. I was in a hurry one morning and left mine at home and was practically assaulted and falsely detained by three thugs and an overbearing Standardtenfuerherin of a ticketwoman.

I literally had to knock two of them into a wall to escape after they hit me three times and the woman tried to rip my coat off in the process.

You could sue private security for thousands for what they do to people here. The same goes when headed into nightclubs. I've seen them assault people over nothing. They will then ring the police and if you're dumb enough to let them detain you they will tell lies and have you arrested and who knows after that(there is no CCTV here so what the private security companies say goes and good luck convincing anyone otherwise).

Worth highlighting the fact about 12 people did not bat an eyelid as I was dragged out of the tram shouting abuse at these ****ers.

Luckily enough I had the luck and physicality to escape from three tough but slow thugs before th Police showed up.

Also I told colleagues and 1-2 friends about this and they don't seem to know what a civil liberty is by their response. As in it's okay to ambush people without Uniform, try and beat someone up, detain them and lie to the police for just forgetting a ticket(in Dublin or Drogheda you would just give an address).

I don't like it here and I think the Asian country I am moving to in May will be less of a Police State tbh from what I've seen and heard. Not to say you can't make a life here but the Police State doesn't sit well with everybody, and certainly wouldn't suit a lot of Irish people used to having rights.

The private security companies here are the problem and they are worse than the police all of whom are armed. They also supervise protests in the locality on occasion which would be relatively illegal in Ireland.

2011

There were even some positive aspects to Fianna Fáil rule.

The Aussie

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

Starting to believe this. At least I have seen it myself and even been on the receiving end. Came across this thread this morning on the way to work(I work in North Austria atm) and it's pretty disturbing.

This poll wasn't all that long ago and the populist right has done very well in recent elections.

A word to the wise. The Police State is very much an active part of life here.

If you ever live over here never even do something as minor as forget your tram ticket or bus ticket. I was in a hurry one morning and left mine at home and was practically assaulted and falsely detained by three thugs and an overbearing Standardtenfuerherin of a ticketwoman

I literally had to knock two of them into a wall to escape after they hit me three times and the woman tried to rip my coat off in the process.

You could sue private security for thousands for what they do to people here. The same goes when headed into nightclubs. I've seen them assault people over nothing. They will then ring the police and if you're dumb enough to let them detain you they will tell lies and have you arrested and who knows after that(there is no CCTV here so what the private security companies say goes and good luck convincing anyone otherwise).

Worth highlighting the fact about 12 people did not bat an eyelid as I was dragged out of the tram shouting abuse at these ****ers.

Luckily enough I had the luck and physicality to escape from three tough but slow thugs before th Police showed up.

Also I told colleagues and 1-2 friends about this and they don't seem to know what a civil liberty is by their response. As in it's okay to ambush people without Uniform, try and beat someone up, detain them and lie to the police for just forgetting a ticket(in Dublin or Drogheda you would just give an address).

I don't like it here and I think the Asian country I am moving to in May will be less of a Police State tbh from what I've seen and heard. Not to say you can't make a life here but the Police State doesn't sit well with everybody, and certainly wouldn't suit a lot of Irish people used to having rights.

The private security companies here are the problem and they are worse than the police all of whom are armed. They also supervise protests in the locality on occasion which would be relatively illegal in Ireland.

Are you drunk?

You forgot your ticket, you assaulted 2 people and you think moving to an Asian country (you don't mention which one) will not be a Police State, once again are you Drunk?

It appears in your rumblings that you are a Tiger Cub who still has no idea of personal responsibility, so what really went on with the ticket, because I only believe half of what you wrote sorry

pmasterson95

#thuglife
#fukdapopos

Andrew Purfield

The Aussie wrote: »

Are you drunk?

You forgot your ticket, you assaulted 2 people and you think moving to an Asian country (you don't mention which one) will not be a Police State, once again are you Drunk?

It appears in your rumblings that you are a Tiger Cub who still has no idea of personal responsibility, so what really went on with the ticket, because I only believe half of what you wrote sorry

Read everything I wrote please.

I forgot my ticket as I was in a hurry. At worse I was expecting to pay a small fine.

Instead I was dragged physically out of the tram, falsely detained and hit three times when I asked questions and then told wait for the police so I could be arrested on top of this over lies as well.

No I wasnt drunk. Maybe that fits in with the Aussie stereotype of an Irishman abroad.

I dont care what you believe. People should be wary of the police state culture that exists to some degree here.

Canis Lupus

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

Read everything I wrote please.

I forgot my ticket as I was in a hurry. At worse I was expecting to pay a small fine.

Instead I was dragged physically out of the tram, falsely detained and hit three times when I asked questions and then told wait for the police so I could be arrested on top of this over lies as well.

No I wasnt drunk. Maybe that fits in with the Aussie stereotype of an Irishman abroad.

I dont care what you believe. People should be wary of the police state culture that exists to some degree here.

I don't believe your version of events either.

kryogen

Only 1 in 2? Bit odd, obviously there were positive aspects like!

kryogen

ejmaztec wrote: »

There's always his granddaughter Alessandra, and she looks a lot better than baldy Benito did.

Have a gander a Catwrina Mussolini while your at it!

Dyr

im invisible wrote: »

Well, at least the trains ran on time...

Its easy to be on schedule when you're only going in one direction

Andrew Purfield

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I don't believe your version of events either.

That's grand. I wouldn't expect everyone to as it was a bizarre and violent episode. I reacted in self defense as I said, on my way to the train station on the tram at about 8 in the morning, having been assaulted and falsely detained in an abusive and bullying manner which would never happen in Ireland, France or Berlin where I've lived before.

The Aussie poster posted the usual racist ****e about an Irishman abroad being drunk if he faces a problem with some local authorities. In this case it wasn't even authority but a private security company behaving aggressively and threateningly so I responded with reasonable force(shoving them out of the way and legging it).

Nobody in Dublin would put up with that and I am not saying this for credibility's sake but to make anybody aware especially coming to North Austria there is a huge private security culture here on a far bigger scale than at home and it is like a rogue police state in this sense when on trams, walking around the town, in the cinema, and even outside of workplaces, near cars and so on.

I am saying I would take the Gardaí and the Orange Order of the Luas any day over this crap. There are positive aspects to life here, but hired thuggery without uniform on a widespread basis ain't one of them.

The disturbing thing here is nobody thinks this type of violence and intimidation is unusual or illegal. I have seen old men being knocked physically out of trams for forgetting ID with their tickets. Customers in cafés being intimidated by skinheads too. I myself have faced 2-3 racist incidents as well so the security culture and to some degree racism are pretty prevalent here, hence the rise of the Populist right.

Come live here if you don't believe me. Then spend a few weeks in Czech Republic a few miles over the border and see the difference in lifestyles, attitudes, security presence and civil liberties when out and about.

Timberrrrrrrr

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

Starting to believe this. At least I have seen it myself and even been on the receiving end. Came across this thread this morning on the way to work(I work in North Austria atm) and it's pretty disturbing.

This poll wasn't all that long ago and the populist right has done very well in recent elections.

A word to the wise. The Police State is very much an active part of life here.

If you ever live over here never even do something as minor as forget your tram ticket or bus ticket. I was in a hurry one morning and left mine at home and was practically assaulted and falsely detained by three thugs and an overbearing Standardtenfuerherin of a ticketwoman.

So you were traveling without a ticket, A fineable offence in most countries afaik.

I literally had to knock two of them into a wall to escape after they hit me three times and the woman tried to rip my coat off in the process.

Add assault to your list of offences.

You could sue private security for thousands for what they do to people here. The same goes when headed into nightclubs. I've seen them assault people over nothing. They will then ring the police and if you're dumb enough to let them detain you they will tell lies and have you arrested and who knows after that(there is no CCTV here so what the private security companies say goes and good luck convincing anyone otherwise)

So you say :rolleyes:

Worth highlighting the fact about 12 people did not bat an eyelid as I was dragged out of the tram shouting abuse at these ****ers.

I wonder why no one batted an eyelid

Luckily enough I had the luck and physicality to escape from three tough but slow thugs before th Police showed up.

You fought them off and ran instead of facing up to your responsibilities.

Also I told colleagues and 1-2 friends about this and they don't seem to know what a civil liberty is by their response. As in it's okay to ambush people without Uniform, try and beat someone up, detain them and lie to the police for just forgetting a ticket(in Dublin or Drogheda you would just give an address).

But you're not in Dublin or Drogheda so you should comply with the laws/rules of the country you are in.

I don't like it here and I think the Asian country I am moving to in May will be less of a Police State tbh from what I've seen and heard. Not to say you can't make a life here but the Police State doesn't sit well with everybody, and certainly wouldn't suit a lot of Irish people used to having rights.

I'm sure they will sorely miss you and your "lost ticket"

The private security companies here are the problem and they are worse than the police all of whom are armed. They also supervise protests in the locality on occasion which would be relatively illegal in Ireland.

Somebody has authority issues.

Andrew Purfield

MadYaker wrote: »

There's no doubt that his rule did have some positive aspects like the revival of the German economy and turning them into a world super power and all that but in the end it was all negated by his insanity.

The poll states that half of Austrians reckon Hitlers Nazi party would stand a decent chance in elections. That's the worrying part, they seem to be looking for some sort of strong man type personality to lead their nation which to me shows a tendency towards authoritarian leadership.

A massive empire for hundreds of years that enslaved people and slaughtered hundreds of thousands.

Not saying the Austrian culture more generally is all bad. They gave us the Coffee House and some nice buildings, largely popularised Chess in Europe, and music if you like classical music which I don't particularly.

It seems similar to Britain to me except The Kaiser is largely revered, as in that was the acceptable civilised imperialism, not like what followed. Austrian establishments have no shame hanging pictures of their Imperial Habsburg heritage up either, which again is a bit weird but it's their country and they never revolted against it the way the Germans did during the Weimar Revolution and German Resistance and various assassination attempts on Hitler later on.

Where I am is actually the region where it all started. I'm not going to say the city. People can guess alright. I came here to study and work. The study did not work out and the job ends in May after which I won't be sticking around.

Andrew Purfield

Fair enough Timberrr. As I said I got angry at being manhandled, falsely detained and hit hard on my arm and shoulder.

If you want to let people beat you up and tell lies to the police over a misdemeanor be my guest. I expected a fine at worse, as you say is the norm in most countries. If it happens in Ireland, a ticket fine in the post. In France a 20 euro cash spot fine. Reasonable punishments for misdemeanors, not offences FFS. There is a difference.

Anyways how many of you calling me a liar have actually lived here? I'm here 6 months now. I reacted with reasonable force considering they hit me, dragged me and detained me first and foremost.

I have my Garda Cert so I know I'm not a crook thank you. I spoke to an off duty reserve officer in the local Belgian Pub about this event a few weeks later and they said while I should have had a ticket the overreaction on their part was a common complaint from foreigners and so this type of incident is not uncommon. In that case maybe I should have waited for the Police to sort things out more calmly than these thugs and my provoked self managed to do, but I as a foreigner without knowledge of how the local police would handle this, and fearful of lies being told about me, resent being falsely detained and hit over a misdemeanor so I didn't stick around.

Back on topic I agree with posters on the first few pages who actually know this country that Racism is a problem here, as it is in a lot of EU countries now.

Yes I do have problems with Authority more generally, especially bullies.

I know what I did aside from the misdemeanor over the ticket was not illegal and am not afraid to post this online without fear of retribution though. If I was lying surely I'd have the smarts to post under a pseudo name.

VinLieger

Why do people resurrect threads that are nearly 2 years old?

Mr. CooL ICE

This means nothing to meeeeeeeee

DeadHand

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

If I was lying surely I'd have the smarts to post under a pseudo name.

Please don't overestimate how much anyone here cares about you or your story.

The Corinthian

MadYaker wrote: »

I think its a bit worrying to be honest. There is a link to the Austrian newspaper website that published the survey in the quote above.

It's a daft, heavily biased reading of a heavily biased survey designed to get the illiterate masses all worked up and 'worried'. My favourte line in the whole thing was this:

"“It is a catastrophe,” writes Gazeta Wyborcza’s Austria columnist Peter Huemer, stressing that “politicians are incapable of stopping the rise in popularity of the authoritarian tendencies in Austria.”"

Indeed, this rise in popularity of the authoritarian tendencies in Austria should be stopped and put back where it belongs... in their cellars.

riffmongous

I've never seen a fight in Austria in the years I've been here, worked in an Irish pub for 12 months and there was almost never even a hint of trouble from the locals, much less any agro.

Are people bigoted? I think some sections of society are but I've never came across anything bad, certainly no violence except for the Serbs against Albanians. It's mostly expressed through grumbling and voting for the FPÖ. The Akademikerball is coming up now in a few weeks and that there is usually some pretty big demos against it, worth keeping an eye on

Beano

Andrew Purfield wrote: »

That's grand. I wouldn't expect everyone to as it was a bizarre and violent episode. I reacted in self defense as I said, on my way to the train station on the tram at about 8 in the morning, having been assaulted and falsely detained in an abusive and bullying manner which would never happen in Ireland, France or Berlin where I've lived before.

The Aussie poster posted the usual racist ****e about an Irishman abroad being drunk if he faces a problem with some local authorities. In this case it wasn't even authority but a private security company behaving aggressively and threateningly so I responded with reasonable force(shoving them out of the way and legging it).

Nobody in Dublin would put up with that and I am not saying this for credibility's sake but to make anybody aware especially coming to North Austria there is a huge private security culture here on a far bigger scale than at home and it is like a rogue police state in this sense when on trams, walking around the town, in the cinema, and even outside of workplaces, near cars and so on.

I am saying I would take the Gardaí and the Orange Order of the Luas any day over this crap. There are positive aspects to life here, but hired thuggery without uniform on a widespread basis ain't one of them.

The disturbing thing here is nobody thinks this type of violence and intimidation is unusual or illegal. I have seen old men being knocked physically out of trams for forgetting ID with their tickets. Customers in cafés being intimidated by skinheads too. I myself have faced 2-3 racist incidents as well so the security culture and to some degree racism are pretty prevalent here, hence the rise of the Populist right.

Come live here if you don't believe me. Then spend a few weeks in Czech Republic a few miles over the border and see the difference in lifestyles, attitudes, security presence and civil liberties when out and about.

we could do with a bit of that attitude from the security on the luas red line.