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One in 2 Austrians believe Hitler's rule had some positive aspects.

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    #92
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    A person doesn't have to sympathise or empathise with Adolf Hitler or nazism to admit that his "rule had positive aspects".

    AJP Taylor's book, The Origins of the Second World War painted a colourful picture of many of the important personages in the lead up to 1939; Taylor's take on it was that Hitler was a chancer and boaster who actively talked up his military and economic readiness when he didn't really have much of either; he was an opportunist who had things go his way at crucial times.

    It's an interesting investigation into the idea that a lot of stuff just happens and there's not an awful lot anyone can do about it; the world stumbled into war, and it will do so again, as surely as the sun will rise tomorrow.

    The talk of slave-labour here is puzzling to me; in war all labour should be taken advantage of; what better people to labour than slaves?

    Whatever about the "positive aspects" of Hitler's rule, I guess we can be grateful to those that fought and died to prevent his war-machine from winning. That's Hitler's real legacy; he was a loser who blamed everyone around him for their failures, when it was his decisions which brought about such a terrible end for his people.

    It makes me laugh when people say they'd like to go back in time to kill him. And then what? Have Goering in charge? He'd could be a better commander than Hitler, could have won the bloody war! Better the devil you know, I say.


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    #93
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    catallus wrote: »
    The talk of slave-labour here is puzzling to me; in war all labour should be taken advantage of; what better people to labour than slaves?
    I think people are saying there shouldn't have been slaves in the first place.


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    #94
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Madam_X wrote: »
    I think people are saying there shouldn't have been slaves in the first place.

    In a perfect world, of course. But war is a bad place to be for wishful thinkers.


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    #95
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    I don't know why but I still think it strange that people take what the were told about WW1 & WW11 as true when it was told by one side and people don't consider what the other side was.


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    #96
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Dodd wrote: »
    I don't know why but I still think it strange that people take what the were told about WW1 & WW11 as true when it was told by one side and people don't consider what the other side was.

    I think we know all there is to know apart from the murkier minutiae of the dealings of the winning side; history is written by the victors, obviously, and god knows enough books have been written about the whole mess.


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    #97
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    catallus wrote: »
    In a perfect world, of course. But war is a bad place to be for wishful thinkers.
    Wars cannot be fought without slavery?
    Dodd wrote: »
    I don't know why but I still think it strange that people take what the were told about WW1 & WW11 as true when it was told by one side and people don't consider what the other side was.
    People take what's pretty well documented as true. What do you feel has not been revealed?


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    #98
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Wars cannot be fought without slavery?

    People take what's pretty well documented as true. What do you feel has not been revealed?

    Nope :(


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    #99
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    catallus wrote: »
    A person doesn't have to sympathise or empathise with Adolf Hitler or nazism to admit that his "rule had positive aspects".

    and there's not an awful lot anyone can do about it; the world stumbled into war, and it will do so again, as surely as the sun will rise tomorrow.

    The talk of slave-labour here is puzzling to me; in war all labour should be taken advantage of; what better people to labour than slaves?

    Whatever about the "positive aspects" of Hitler's rule, I guess we can be grateful to those that fought and died to prevent his war-machine from winning. That's Hitler's real legacy; he was a loser who blamed everyone around him for their failures, when it was his decisions which brought about such a terrible end for his people.

    It makes me laugh when people say they'd like to go back in time to kill him. And then what? Have Goering in charge? He'd could be a better commander than Hitler, could have won the bloody war! Better the devil you know, I say.

    Goering was an awful commander, bigger spoofer than hitler


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    #100
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Bambi wrote: »
    Goering was an awful commander, bigger spoofer than hitler

    But given that the right side won the war, would you be willing to risk having him in charge?


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    #101
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Wars cannot be fought without slavery?

    People take what's pretty well documented as true. What do you feel has not been revealed?

    Just because something is well documented does not make it true.
    You have media telling you what they want you to hear/read.


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    #102
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    catallus wrote: »
    Nope :(
    Yeh you're clearly devastated. :pac:
    Is slavery definitely intrinsic to war?
    Dodd wrote: »
    Just because something is well documented does not make it true.
    You have media telling you what they want you to hear/read.
    Mass graves? Footage? Survivors? Artefacts? WWII happened in living memory.


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    #103
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Dodd wrote: »
    Just because something is well documented does not make it true.
    You have media telling you what they want you to hear/read.

    Some people might jump down your throat for dismissing documentary evidence, but you make an important point; we shouldn't swallow everything we are told; but at the same time we are really talking about one of the most heavily documented periods of the twentieth century; 70 years of books and film and the most serious historians and intelligent historiographers have been over it; it's all there for you to check it out; and then make up your own mind.


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    #104
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    Madam_X wrote: »

    Mass graves? Footage? Survivors? Artefacts? WWII happened in living memory.
    And all that was told to you by who.?


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    #105
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Dodd wrote: »
    And all that was told to you by who.?

    You need to elaborate on your issue against documentary evidence.

    Madam_X wrote: »
    Yeh you're clearly devastated. :pac:
    Is slavery definitely intrinsic to war?

    Mass graves? Footage? Survivors? Artefacts? WWII happened in living memory.

    It is definitely intrinsic to Total War, such as was WWII.


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    #106
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,389 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    seamus wrote: »
    It's a collective "Don't mention the war" taboo that's spread across the world where if you say anything which could be remotely construed as positive about Hitler, then you're a dirty Nazi.

    Holocaust denial laws and banning of Nazi symbols have only helped neonazi types buy into the idea that they're a persecuted minority. It also helps that nobody has to think about it so much.
    I see it as dangerous. I believe in giving these groups enough rope to hang themselves. They should be allowed their platform so everyone can see them for what they are.


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    #107
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    catallus wrote: »
    Some people might jump down your throat for dismissing documentary evidence, but you make an important point; we shouldn't swallow everything we are told; but at the same time we are really talking about one of the most heavily documented periods of the twentieth century; 70 years of books and film and the most serious historians and intelligent historiographers have been over it; it's all there for you to check it out; and then make up your own mind.

    I have checked it all out and found that a lot of it is BS.


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    #108
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    seamus wrote: »
    I think what's more bizarre is that one in two Austrians are telling themselves that Hitler's time in power had no positive aspects at all.

    It's a collective "Don't mention the war" taboo that's spread across the world where if you say anything which could be remotely construed as positive about Hitler, then you're a dirty Nazi.
    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Austria have legislation in place prohibiting any expression of Nazi ideology. They've banned political parties in the past for having characteristics of National Socialism.

    Some people are of the opinion that they never really came to terms with what happened, their leadership have decided that it's better to try and bury it for good.

    I don't know my post-war history as well as I should, but weren't the Austrians essentially treated as victims rather than perpetrators? I don't think they went through the same de-Nazification process that the Germans did, so it isn't surprising that they might look back on that era differently than the Germans (or neighboring countries).


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    #109
    Brian_Zeluz
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Brian_Zeluz


    Having lived in Austria the result of this survey is not entirely surprising to me. On a number of occasions I became aware of a rather alarming level of animosity towards people of Turkish descent in particular. To be fair there are two sides to every story and some of the points they made about these immigrants such as their unwillingness to integrate had an element of truth. If Hitler were around now they would definitely be his scapegoat and I can easily imagine someone who holds similar views to what I described above getting into power today.

    Another thing a lot of you seem to think is that Austrians will never talk about "ze var". This is not true. The younger generations (<35) have no hang-ups about any part of their country's past and are more than willing to talk about it. They would even make jokes about Fritzl if you were in a pub etc that had a cellar.


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    #110
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    kowloon wrote: »
    Holocaust denial laws and banning of Nazi symbols have only helped neonazi types buy into the idea that they're a persecuted minority. It also helps that nobody has to think about it so much.
    I see it as dangerous. I believe in giving these groups enough rope to hang themselves. They should be allowed their platform so everyone can see them for what they are.

    This is the genius of true democracy: to allow bigots and racists to show themselves to the benign masses as the evil they represent: We all know the background for these laws; the truth of history is too fresh in their minds and they want to ban the neo-nazis, that's their decision, and in my opinion it has had a cooling effect on the rise of reprehensible politics which would otherwise come about. But it's a short term solution to the inevitable hatred of the "other" which lies in all our hearts. We can only trust democracy.


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    #111
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    catallus wrote: »
    You need to elaborate on your issue against documentary evidence.




    .

    No I don't.
    You are just trying to take this to the side.Side tracking.


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    #112
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Dodd wrote: »
    No I don't.
    You are just trying to take this to the side.Side tracking.
    No they're just asking you to elaborate on what you say and support it. Not an unreasonable request.


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    #113
    Lone Stone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Lone Stone


    One thing i never understand about the holocaust deniers, not sure how to put this but for example i saw one of them on some news channel before and he made some quip about it not being what it was made out to be and he just shut down and not allowed to speak, so why doesnt anyone ever say right if you believe that it never happened what is your evidence, prove it. I find it strange no one would publicly squash the claims/evidence put forward by some of the more prominent deniers.

    unless some one has ? i have no idea.

    Anyway i believe nasa and other space programs would not have come into existence if it wasnt for the nazi's, ecstasy ?


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    #114
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    Madam_X wrote: »
    No they're just asking you to elaborate on what you say and support it. Not an unreasonable request.

    Your not trying to get me to brake the law by questioning some of WW11 reports are you.

    Do your own research.


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    #115
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Lone Stone wrote: »
    One thing i never understand about the holocaust deniers, not sure how to put this but for example i saw one of them on some news channel before and he made some quip about it not being what it was made out to be and he just shut down and not allowed to speak, so why doesnt anyone ever say right if you believe that it never happened what is your evidence, prove it. I find it strange no one would publicly squash the claims/evidence put forward by some of the more prominent deniers.

    unless some one has ? i have no idea.

    Anyway i believe nasa and other space programs would not have come into existence if it wasnt for the nazi's, ecstasy ?

    I think the problem with holocaust deniers is that they don't ever come out and say it didn't happen; they hedge their bets and say the extent of it is over-stated; that it wasn't as organised as the facts suggest; and that it wasn't an actual policy per se. Most use the lack of documents saying that Hitler ordered it.

    I believe that educated cynicism is one of the most important foundations upon which any society can be based, and I support it every chance I get; but there is an inclination in many people to kick against the logic and what is plainly in front of their eyes when an opportunity arises to question what many of us take as fact; and we take it as fact because it is built upon the truth as given to us by those who investigated what happened in Central and Eastern Europe between 1941 and 1944.

    The problem is that the underlying facets of fascism and racism give some people encouragement to spout an immature cynicism, and the sad fact is that hatred is easy when you're anonymous. It is an attractive prospect for people to be able to say they have the inside track on important issues such as this.


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    #116
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    I see the JIDF seem to be here.

    NN.


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    #117
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Can't back yourself up - throw toys out of pram. Did NOT see that coming...


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    #118
    iamanengine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭iamanengine


    I don't know if this has been thought of before but...

    AH = Adolf Hitler
    AH = After Hours

    Dear God


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    #119
    Lone Stone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Lone Stone


    Madam_X wrote: »
    They want to believe it's grossly exaggerated, just because they hate Jews - and even tell themselves that evidence is lies and fed to us by the media etc. The anti Holocaust denial culture is handy for them because it means they can pretend they're being oppressed AND don't have to back up their claims.
    Maybe there are exaggerations here and there, but to say a lot of it is bullsh1t - just because they want that to be the case - is amusing.

    Yea i just find it an interesting subject because just a year or so ago, i had do some paper on propaganda and i came across all this information on frauds nephew Edward Bernays who was part of the american propaganda machine during ww2 and some of the stuff they did crazy you would get away with it today it would be picked apart in seconds on the internet, they had such control over what people thought by manipulating every aspect of the news they could make you think was falling down back then because you couldnt get an outside news source. It really just me made think when i saw these deniers occasionally popping up, what do they know that makes them think it was all a lie. But can they say it ? cant you be arrested for denial ?

    I mean they use to drop flyers into nazi occupied countries suggesting Hitler was a necrophiliac, so really i dont believe they didnt happen but i wouldnt be surprised if some of it was exaggerated to garner support from home, i mean iraq had nukes right !


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    #120
    Dodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭Dodd


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Can't back yourself up - throw toys out of pram. Did NOT see that coming...

    Well watch this from a former Jew.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

    Do watch it and tell me what you think.?


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    #121
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    More importantly, they'd be a bit stuck for programming on the History Channel. :(

    Have you seen the History Channel lately? There's not history programmes at all!


This discussion has been closed.
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