Glut of repossessed houses could depress prices ‘by up to 25%’

Bob24

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Not all properties are advertised on Myhome.ie
No different to not all cars are advertised on donedeal.
Neither means shady dealings.

People always want to blame someone else for their own lack of work.

As a taxpayer who paid to bail out the banks the question I would have is to know whether they Re getting the best value out repossessed properties, and without addressing a large part of potential buyers I am not sure it is the case.

If I sell my car to someone I know and don't advertise it because I think the price is good enough and I don't want to bother it is my problem and my money.

But in the case of a bank sale where what is effectively at stake is how much taxpayer's money and some transparency and accountability is required.

Now if there are some good argument to say that only involving a smal number of individual rather than making efforts to address every potential buyer in the country is giving better returns why not. But I don't see how people can accept that fact without questioning it and seeing some documented evidence.

dinnyirwin

Bob24 wrote: »

As a taxpayer who paid to bail out the banks the question I would have is to know whether they Re getting the best value out repossessed properties, and without addressing a large part of potential buyers I am not sure it is the case.

If I sell my car to someone I know and don't advertise it because I think the price is good enough and I don't want to bother it is my problem and my money.

But in the case of a bank sale where what is effectively at stake is how much taxpayer's money and some transparency and accountability is required.

Now if there are some good argument to say that only involving a smal number of individual rather than making efforts to address every potential buyer in the country is giving better returns why not. But I don't see how people can accept that fact without questioning it and seeing some documented evidence.

Would you say you are more of an expert than the people dealing with these properties? If you are, then by all means apply for the job and deal with it whatever way you see fit.

Bob24

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Would you say you are more of an expert than the people dealing with these properties? If you are, then by all means apply for the job and deal with it whatever way you see fit.

I think there is a difference between claiming to be an expert and expecting transparency and accountability around how public money is dealt with (or private shareholder's money). Especially in Ireland and when we are talking about banks dealing with properties ... I am not sure recent history is telling me to accept anything local "experts" say without questioning it.

cookie1977

Bob24 wrote: »

As a taxpayer who paid to bail out the banks the question I would have is to know whether they Re getting the best value out repossessed properties, and without addressing a large part of potential buyers I am not sure it is the case.

Would you not think that as prices are rising in some key locations due to supply despite modest repossessions that they are in fact getting decent money for the repossessed properties they are selling?

gaius c

Bob24 wrote: »

As a taxpayer who paid to bail out the banks the question I would have is to know whether they Re getting the best value out repossessed properties, and without addressing a large part of potential buyers I am not sure it is the case.

If I sell my car to someone I know and don't advertise it because I think the price is good enough and I don't want to bother it is my problem and my money.

But in the case of a bank sale where what is effectively at stake is how much taxpayer's money and some transparency and accountability is required.

Now if there are some good argument to say that only involving a smal number of individual rather than making efforts to address every potential buyer in the country is giving better returns why not. But I don't see how people can accept that fact without questioning it and seeing some documented evidence.

It's only taxpayers money they are gambling with and if it goes wrong, they can always get more of it.

MouseTail

Most repos aren't suitable for mortgages anyway. Investors can pay cash, and clean up title etc afterwards, banks want these off their books cleanly and quickly and don't want the hassle of sales that fall through.

Bepolite

MouseTail wrote: »

Most repos aren't suitable for mortgages anyway. Investors can pay cash, and clean up title etc afterwards, banks want these off their books cleanly and quickly and don't want the hassle of sales that fall through.

Its amazing the amount of people (including myself until quite recently) that don't understand a bank is not going to loan on somewhere that is wrecked.

dinnyirwin

Bob24 wrote: »

I think there is a difference between claiming to be an expert and expecting transparency and accountability around how public money is dealt with (or private shareholder's money). Especially in Ireland and when we are talking about banks dealing with properties ... I am not sure recent history is telling me to accept anything local "experts" say without questioning it.

I dont know how to make this any clearer.
There is no huge conspiracy going on.
Anyone who wants to can get access to any entities properties that are for sale. Talk to your local bank managers, estate agents or whoever you want the info from. Tell them what you are looking for and they will help you out (if they are happy that you are serious and not wasting their time.).

Just because people havent done this and so have not accessed the info, just means that they havent done the work in to find out who is selling. It doesnt mean that its being kept secret from them.

In the UK there are even house hunting agents who will go all these routes for you to find property that suits your needs. They do the donkey work, you pay them for their services and everyone is happy.

Or you can just do the donkey work yourself for and save some money.

Bob24

cookie1977 wrote: »

Would you not think that as prices are rising in some key locations due to supply despite modest repossessions that they are in fact getting decent money for the repossessed properties they are selling?

I see what you are saying ... I guess no-one can know for sure if part of the market is opaque.

REXER

Just GOOGLE Irish Anglo Bank tapes and you can listen to the EXPERTS in action! :eek:

jay0109

Well this would make a great PQ from some of the Independent busy bodies in the Dail:

"Are bank led repossessed (voluntary/involuntary) houses being sold on the open market? If yes, how is the sale of these properties being advertised....on websites such as myhome/daft, on lists published in the media by the banks or on a nod/wink basis by the local bank manager?

gaius c

MouseTail wrote: »

Most repos aren't suitable for mortgages anyway. Investors can pay cash, and clean up title etc afterwards, banks want these off their books cleanly and quickly and don't want the hassle of sales that fall through.

How do you work that one out?
Got a citation for it?

murphaph

indiewindy wrote: »

fully agree, highest prices would be achieved on the open market, not dirty dealings with a chosen few

They tried that will allsops and muppets stormed the auction hall.

dinnyirwin

murphaph wrote: »

They tried that will allsops and muppets stormed the auction hall.

And you have relatives standing up at auctions with sob stories and begging people not to bid on the properties so they can bid on their own. Embarrassing the bidders out of it with cameras in their faces, making them out to be scumbags.

makeorbrake

murphaph wrote: »

They tried that will allsops and muppets stormed the auction hall.

Of course that is an issue with auctions, yes. However, the point is that at the very least, whatever is up for sale should be publicly listed somewhere so that at a minimum, all the potential buyers out there for a specific property or property type at least know of its existence should they want to pursue it further. They shouldnt be disadvantaged because a rival buyer has an 'in' with a bank manager somewhere who can give him a heads up on a property before it becomes visible to everyone else.

jmayo

Villa05 wrote: »

Unsecured of 160k mostly written off, allowed to keep the BTL's for now as they are providing an income that is paying for their PDH, I presume. Allowed to pay "what they can afford" on the BTL's mortgages



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/family-with-600000-debt-first-to-get-writeoff-deal-29949084.html

If Master-card did Insolvency deals....................

Villa05 wrote: »

Probably the average person that can afford a PIP You know who the Insolvency arrangements were set up to protect as well as I do

Ehh did anyone notice this little snippet ?

Dungarvan-based personal insolvency practitioner (PIP) Mitchell O'Brien of Insolvency Resolution Service, who acted for the family, said the banks had agreed to allow the buy-to-lets to be retained.
...
Mr O'Brien would not say how much of the buy-to-let mortgage debt was written off but he indicated that most of the unsecured loans will be wiped if the family sticks to the six-year agreement.

He said he charged €5,000, plus VAT of 23pc, for the deal. Just €150 of this was paid upfront, with the main lenders ending up covering the rest of the PIP's costs.

Did anyone notice this last paragraph?
The main lenders, probably one of our taxpayer funded banks, is paying most of his fee.

So we are paying by writing off their fooking debts and we are paying for some leeching geebag to help them do it.

Aint it a lovely little country ...


... for some
:mad:

Villa05

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh did anyone notice this little snippet ?



Did anyone notice this last paragraph?
The main lenders, probably one of our taxpayer funded banks, is paying most of his fee.

So we are paying by writing off their fooking debts and we are paying for some leeching geebag to help them do it.

Aint it a lovely little country ...


... for some
:mad:

SSSSHHHHHH Economic recovery :pac: How much of it is driven by these shenanigans.

It must be costing a fortune to prop up property prices? That fortune can be spent in the economy buying SCD, Big new cars. Who cares if it is the same professions that caused the mess that are profiting, its contributing to economic growth.

NAMA, Legal/Accounting fees, Advisors etc

Raffeal

It'll be interesting to see if other people getting these pips will be treated the same way. Fees have been put forward as the main reason the people in the middle and lower income brackets can't access them.

It only costs €650 for accountants to qualify as pips so it's hard to justify the costs.

http://irelandbookings.accaglobal.com/event_details.aspx?month=5&id=682

Raffeal

The government is intent on propping up property prices, 7 year deals on capital appreciation, section 2x all over again, in this low interest environment it's no wonder investors are coming in. The people living here will pay the price, families with two parents working, kids in crèches or with grandparents, nobody's idea of ideal. How anyone thinks high property prices are a good thing baffles me, property is both a veblen and Giffen good in this country.

gaius c

Raffeal wrote: »

The government is intent on propping up property prices, 7 year deals on capital appreciation, section 2x all over again, in this low interest environment it's no wonder investors are coming in. The people living here will pay the price, families with two parents working, kids in crèches or with grandparents. How anyway thinks high property prices are a good thing baffles me, property is both a veblen and Giffen good in this country.

And then they'll be puzzled when every other sector of the economy remains in the doldrums because nobody has any money left over after paying over the top for their accommodation.

Raffeal

Yes it really is bizarre, if I spend my money on mortgage payments or rent I can't be a customer of all the businesses that the government want to employ people. If only we were all on ministers pay levels, with gold plated pensions, then we could have it all... They're totally disconnected from the reality most live with, depressing really.

Tea drinker

Raffeal wrote: »

Yes it really is bizarre, if I spend my money on mortgage payments or rent I can't be a customer of all the businesses that the government want to employ people. If only we were all on ministers pay levels, with gold plated pensions, then we could have it all... They're totally disconnected from the reality most live with, depressing really.

Look at a member of the judiciary suggesting the civil defence get involved in policing..... nonsense, and disconnected from own role let alone reality.
yep, with more expensive mortgages we are losing competitiveness as well. Aint it great?

Raffeal

Yes and our wonderful Government and some posters here think it's progress. I'm reminded by two quotes, one from the Japanese prime minister when asked did he see the Celtic tiger as competition or words to that effect and he said no, when asked why he said property, short and to the point. The often entertaining warren buffet remarked he doesn't know why people keep inventing new ways to loose money when the old ways work just fine.

It seems we as a society didn't learn from the last crash, the government are propping up prices and distorting the market and the usual suspects who profit by exploiting poor regulation are jumping in.

I suspect PIA's will help some people, but the banks and other vested interests got their way on the overall solution, I'm not holding out on the right thing happening any time soon. Landlords, accidental, deliberate and me too's alike will keep the properties they can't afford to pay for, and everyone else will pay inflated prices for, well everything.

Bob24

Raffeal wrote: »

Yes and our wonderful Government and some posters here think it's progress. I'm reminded by two quotes, one from the Japanese prime minister when asked did he see the Celtic tiger as competition or words to that effect and he said no, when asked why he said property, short and to the point. The often entertaining warren buffet remarked he doesn't know why people keep inventing new ways to loose money when the old ways work just fine.

It seems we as a society didn't learn from the last crash, the government are propping up prices and distorting the market and the usual suspects who profit by exploiting poor regulation are jumping in.

I suspect PIA's will help some people, but the banks and other vested interests got their way on the overall solution, I'm not holding out on the right thing happening any time soon. Landlords, accidental, deliberate and me too's alike will keep the properties they can't afford to pay for, and everyone else will pay inflated prices for, well everything.

Absolutely agreed with what you said.

This raises a question though: if Irish people are so unreasonable about property and there are so many vested interests to artificially bump up prices; is it not a good idea to invest in there? (genuine question, I am really wondering)

In any case what is sad is that something as a house which is one of the most basic things a family needs can be so much of a gamble and has a fairly high potential for destroying a lifetime's of savings for a middle class family (and that everybody is asking for more!). It is not the interest of investors and people who bough an overpriced property, but if you look at the long term interest of the country as a whole and its people - it is crazy to keep such an unregulated property market. More personal dramas to come and less money going into the actual economy.

Cuddlesworth

Bob24 wrote: »

Absolutely agreed with what you said.

This raises a question though: if Irish people are so unreasonable about property and there are so many vested interests to artificially bump up prices; is it not a good idea to invest in there? (genuine question, I am really wondering)

Large price fluctuations in property hurt the economy as a whole. A broken economy is not a good location for investment.

Bob24

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Large price fluctuations in property hurt the economy as a whole. A broken economy is not a good location for investment.

Yes if you look at the economy as a whole absolutely agreed it is not good and can limit investement.

My question was more about investing specifically in property and right now. Since prices are indeed flucuating a lot (and just dropped a lot) but people seem to always be coming back and buying like crazy again after the crashes, even though a lot of things in the economy and the property market are still broken; as an investor you could have a view that it is a good idea to buy now as people will gladely create an other bubble in the coming years - whether or not it is rational or good for the economy as a whole.

Cuddlesworth

Bob24 wrote: »

My question was more about investing specifically in property and right now. Since prices are indeed flucuating a lot (and just dropped a lot) but people seem to always be coming back and buying like crazy again after the crashes, even though a lot of things in the economy and the property market are still broken; as an investor you could have a view that it is a good idea to buy now as people will gladely create an other bubble in the coming years - whether or not it is rational or good for the economy as a whole.

If I was to look at it honestly, if I had the cash to buy a property (around 250-300k) and had not worked for property management companies in the past, I would be right in there amongst the gravy train.

If it was my entire savings, I wouldn't. I can't help but feel that this current rush is fueled by retirement cash piles, since we are not a big proper retirement fund country. At least not for our current later generations.

gaius c

Central Bank research paints detailed portrait of distressed borrowers

Some three-quarters of all mortgage arrears cases in Ireland involve a household in which the head is currently in employment.

From a thread on AAM:

Karl Deeter made the point that it was interesting that those in arrears were paying "only" 27.7% of their gross income in mortgage repayments. Current lending practice allows lenders to lend a higher proportion of net income that this, so why are they in arrears?

Negative equity is not as big a factor as previously thought. 25% of those in arrears have substantial equity in their homes.

If true, it would blow out of the water, the theory around these parts that the banks are not repossessing because they don't want to crystallise their losses out.

cookie1977

gaius c wrote: »

Central Bank research paints detailed portrait of distressed borrowers



From a thread on AAM:


If true, it would blow out of the water, the theory around these parts that the banks are not repossessing because they don't want to crystallise their losses out.

We're quoting Brendan Burgess now? As in this Brendan?

Not to mention the stats in the report dont add up that he's quoting.

cookie1977

Can you not also be in arrears and financial difficulty and still have a job or are you trying to make some other point here?