Waterford Airport

foxcoverteddy

On the Waterford city forum their is a discussion with Havetoquit as to the best way to start a campaign to save Waterford Airport and to, I guess to get it upgraded for better use.
Living in the south East, one has the option of going to Dublin or Cork, neither of which really inspire one to fly from, though out of choice maybe Cork.
Waterford would be an ideal airport for the South East, but it has lacked financial assistance, the runway is not suitable for airplanes of 737 size, too short apparently.
The problem is how does one go about getting support? Yes there is a recession but this is recession busting, it could bring untold wealth to the South East, tourism, trade and convenience etc.
Anyone who has faced a journey to the UK by ferry and the poor connections the other side surely would jump at flying from Waterford, which has easy access, parking facilities and so on.
Any one out there can throw a hand to giving advice or help would be appreciated. Thanks, i have a motto - Fly Waterford.

mike65

The land is bought and planning permission given (as far as I know), the only thing needed is someone to cough up about 20 million.

foxcoverteddy

Thanks for the info at least it is a good start, only 20 mill doesn't sound bad, if you say it quick, but in realm of trillions it is a drop in the ocean. Thanks

b757

There was a figure for 27 million 5/6 years ago but not it would be in the region of 15-20 million. In terms of how much the government is paying back now it is not that much.

Everything needs to be upgraded. Terminal, Runway, taxiways, ramp space, navigation aids and lighting. However there was work going on our there the past couple of months, seems they have some sort of stuff done, wiring for lighting, clearing, etc. I'm not saying it is going ahead anytime soon, I think it's just a start to speed things up if they do get the money.

The plan was for a 2,200*45 meter runway but for a 737/a320 type you would only need about 1800 minimum. Which would obviously cost less.

--

As for getting people aware. Billboards, signs, radio interviews/ads across all radio stations in the southeast; not just WLR, etc.

Could run monthly competitions for flights or vouchers. I know they do it sometimes but for iPads, etc but even just for 50-100 euro vouchers.

--

As for flights anyway. Flybe will be announcing something for MAN soon I believe. No news on the LTN or and other London airport.

munchkin_utd

To be honest the problem is that folks aren't prepared to pay to use the flights from their local airport that are there currently and spending 20million on a runway so that larger planes with larger capacities can run just doesnt sound right.

Regional airports in places like Luxembourg (which actually has 747 cargo planes based there too so they HAVE a big runway) run regional planes all over the place at prices that Waterford people would cringe at, but the connections are there, Lux-Munich 5 times a day for instance all ran by small planes.
Actually, theres loads of connections out of Munich or Luxembourg and similar airports ran by planes with similar capacity to say Aer Lingus regional which go to various destinations multiple times per day.
Theres nothing wrong with small planes and having smaller planes running more frequently means you are better connected than one 737 every day or other day.

Basically, either the business is there to be tapped or it isnt.
I'd love to see what the business plan is for Waterford airport because as it is locals dont value its convenient location in enough numbers to fill small planes so why should locals be any different should larger planes be stationed there?

EDIT: Translation to simple english -
folks from Waterford won't use their own airport so the solution is to spend 20million+ on upgrading the airport to see if maybe an airline decides to setup there with larger planes (and maybe Raynair wont blast them out of the water with loss making services funded by their 100s of milions of cash reserves) and maybe cheaper tickets would be offered which maybe will be viable for the airline in the longer term which maybe will be cheap enough to entice folks not to use Dublin or Cork.

fricatus

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I'd love to see what the business plan is for Waterford airport because as it is locals dont value its convenient location in enough numbers to fill small planes so why should locals be any different should larger planes be stationed there?

Just from my own experience in chatting to people, there would be a number of factors. I'm interested in aviation, but not in any way involved in it, or in tourism, but here's what I reckon:

1. People go with what they know. They click on the Ryanair or Aer Lingus websites and book a flight out of Dublin there. They may not know or care that there might be a flight from Waterford with FlyBE.
2. Nobody books from an airport. They book with an airline. If they're coming from the continent or the UK, they check out the websites of the airlines they know, and book a flight into an airport that is at least some way convenient.
3. Flight time is important to people, even though the overall time from door to door is the most important thing. I said to a guy one day that Waterford might be the best bet for him (Kilkenny to Twickenham), and he argued that the Ryanair flight took 40 minutes whereas the Aer Arann flight at the time took an hour and a half "in a fcuking Hi-Ace with wings". The fact that it was closer and only takes about 10 minutes from check-in to lounge was irrelevant.
4. Aircraft type is also important to people (see comment above). People are not rational about this. They think "little propellory planes" are unsafe.
5. The airport is perceived as being in the "ar$e end of Waterford" even though from KK/Wex/CW/Tipp, Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports are all on the far side of their respective cities. KK and CW people have no excuse, as the connection to WAT via the M9, N25 new bridge and outer ring road is now excellent. Wexford has an excuse, with having to get through New Ross, but that will change drastically in a few years once it's bypassed.
6. Sorry to say this, but there is fcuk-all loyalty to the local airport once you cross "the bridge". I had another guy in Kilkenny say to me that he'd happily fly Aer Arann if they flew from an airport in Kilkenny. I sh1t you not, but that's the parochial mindset you get from some people. It mattered not a whit that it was 30 minutes from his home; he didn't see it as being his local airport because it wasn't in his county.

Personally I think the only way forward is to extend the runway and take our chances with Ryanair, like NOC has done. The marketing cachet of having a major airline (and not some franchise operator running "propellory planes") is a huge thing from what I can tell from what I see and hear.

cson

Waterford City is circa 2hrs from both Dublin and Cork Airports. In my opinion that's not a huge time to travel to give yourself a wealth of flight option. Ergo Government funding would be much better spent on improving facilities at our existing main airports (another runway @ DUB) or else building infrastructure to allow easy access to the airports (like a Waterford - Cork motorway).

mike65

Ah yes make sure to keep all the pies in two or three locations rather than develop balanced regional infrastructure.

Peregrine

mike65 wrote: »

Ah yes make sure to keep all the pies in two or three locations rather than develop balanced regional infrastructure.

3 major airports for a population of just 4.5 million is quite balanced.. The sad truth is, we can't have airports for every corner of this island with such a small population, especially not now.

It's much better to have major airports and then improve infrastructure to the airport than having airports for every city of 50,000. But I do agree that the roads from Waterford to Cork is awful and needs development.

mike65

It wouldn't be for 50,000 it would be for a region. ie 400,000, and for industrial development inwardly. Not all journeys are for tourists.

foxcoverteddy

We do have a problem, living in the past, we are talking South East full stop.
Why not initiate a South Eastern Local Authority, sweeping away all the other local councils.
One authority could ot should co-ordinate infastructure, which means great changes to take into consideration Road, Rail and Air, what counties you incorporate into the authority is dependent on whether you take parts of Carlow and South tipp.
The old county names would still be used for the traditional hurling and other inter county sports.
We would now have a power base to dictate what is needed, the Airport for one, improved roads between urban centres.
Instead of money being wasted by each county we would now have a strong financial situation, and draft plans published to ensure each area benefits from the changes.
We need tourism and we need business, a new generation get rid of the deadwood with blinkered views.
Foxy

LeftBase

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

We do have a problem, living in the past, we are talking South East full stop.
Why not initiate a South Eastern Local Authority, sweeping away all the other local councils.
One authority could ot should co-ordinate infastructure, which means great changes to take into consideration Road, Rail and Air, what counties you incorporate into the authority is dependent on whether you take parts of Carlow and South tipp.
The old county names would still be used for the traditional hurling and other inter county sports.
We would now have a power base to dictate what is needed, the Airport for one, improved roads between urban centres.
Instead of money being wasted by each county we would now have a strong financial situation, and draft plans published to ensure each area benefits from the changes.
We need tourism and we need business, a new generation get rid of the deadwood with blinkered views.
Foxy

The simple truth here is that no airlines of any size will operate a 737 sized aircraft in to Waterford because it would not be full most of the time. You can be in Dublin in under 2 hours by road and in SNN in something similar. That is more than what is needed.

Teebor15

The land is bought and planning permission given (as far as I know), the only thing needed is someone to cough up about 20 million.

The land at the northern end was purchased last year and is now part of the airport site. The land to the south has been cpo'd recently so should be sorted soon. Planning will not be applied for til funding becomes available.

You could get to B737/A320 capable for alot less than that. 8-10 million would get you there quite easy i believe...the 20 odd million previously qouted was for supplementery stuff like extra taxiway, An ILS to Rwy 03, more hangerage, etc.. all things nice to have but not essential to landing a B737.

Everything needs to be upgraded. Terminal, Runway, taxiways, ramp space, navigation aids and lighting. However there was work going on our there the past couple of months, seems they have some sort of stuff done, wiring for lighting, clearing, etc. I'm not saying it is going ahead anytime soon, I think it's just a start to speed things up if they do get the money.

Everything needs to be upgraded. Terminal, Runway, taxiways, ramp space, navigation aids and lighting. However there was work going on our there the past couple of months, seems they have some sort of stuff done, wiring for lighting, clearing, etc. I'm not saying it is going ahead anytime soon, I think it's just a start to speed things up if they do get the money.

The plan was for a 2,200*45 meter runway but for a 737/a320 type you would only need about 1800 minimum. Which would obviously cost less.

The work done over the last few months was to install RESA's (Runway End Safety Area) at either end of the runway and too move the hill near the western side of the runway. This in turn will get the airport a step closer to the goal of the runway extension.

The plan was never for a 2,200 metre runway as that would involve moving a public road at the southern end. The plan was for an 1850m runway which would enable A320 flights to the south of spain. This would be too short for ryanairs B737s to everywhere bar the UK. But that maybe for a reason!!

As for flights anyway. Flybe will be announcing something for MAN soon I believe. No news on the LTN or and other London airport.

Yes i believe MAN to be announced next week. Still ironic that the main money making, no brainer of a route to London may be missing for the summer. Bloody logistics!!

EDIT: Translation to simple english -
folks from Waterford won't use their own airport so the solution is to spend 20million+ on upgrading the airport to see if maybe an airline decides to setup there with larger planes (and maybe Raynair wont blast them out of the water with loss making services funded by their 100s of milions of cash reserves) and maybe cheaper tickets would be offered which maybe will be viable for the airline in the longer term which maybe will be cheap enough to entice folks not to use Dublin or Cork.

People of the southeast do not use the airport as much as the should because of the ticket price, small propellor planes (misconception), and some of the other reasons already mentioned. Ryanair/AerLingus mainline would easliy fill their aicraft with a daily london perhaps twice daily if they could offer a day return service. A daily LPL/MAN and a 3/4 weekly birmingham plus holiday flights would all bring passengers figures from the 80,000 approx present to 350k/400k. This is turn raises the whole profile of the airport as people would now see it as a "proper" airport and would be more likely to use it for all flights thus allowing the likes of flybe or Aer Lingus regional come back in with their turboprops to supplement the main routes with flight to the places like Edinburgh and Bristol.

The airports main goal is not to turn a profit but to breakeven and stand on its own two feet. Its primary purpose is to support the development of business in the south east by providing direct links to the outside world which in turn will provide employment and all the benefits that follow. And also to provide links for inward tourists to choose the south east to holiday in and spend their money rather than Dublin, Cork the midwest becasue they are the regions easlily accessible.

3 major airports for a population of just 4.5 million is quite balanced.. The sad truth is, we can't have airports for every corner of this island with such a small population, especially not now.

It's much better to have major airports and then improve infrastructure to the airport than having airports for every city of 50,000. But I do agree that the roads from Waterford to Cork is awful and needs development.

Ah yes a typical answer from someone based a stones throwaway from the countrys main airport. Come back to me after travelling 2 hours to your airport a couple of times aweek and see if you still sing the same tune!

It wouldn't be for 50,000 it would be for a region. ie 400,000, and for industrial development inwardly. Not all journeys are for tourists

The southeast region has more than half million people and believe it or not with the new motorway and road network around Waterford people as far north as Nass can get door to door quicker using Waterford than Dublin! And before anyone asks this was calculated as part of a part of a university research project conducted by a student a couple of years go.

fricatus

LeftBase wrote: »

The simple truth here is that no airlines of any size will operate a 737 sized aircraft in to Waterford because it would not be full most of the time.

How come Ryanair operate 737s into Kerry and Knock then? Surely the catchment population for those airports is smaller than Waterford's?

Tralee, for example, is only an hour and a half from both Cork and Shannon airports, yet Kerry airport seems to survive just fine.

All of Connacht has a population of about 540,000, which is enough to support plenty of flights. The south-east (KK, WX, CW, WD and TS) has about 480,000 people. I think most people in Waterford would be perfectly happy with the range of services available at NOC. It's not A380s to Dubai we're talking about here!

Peregrine

fricatus wrote: »

How come Ryanair operate 737s into Kerry and Knock then? Surely the catchment population for those airports is smaller than Waterford's?

Tralee, for example, is only an hour and a half from both Cork and Shannon airports, yet Kerry airport seems to survive just fine.

All of Connacht has a population of about 540,000, which is enough to support plenty of flights. The south-east (KK, WX, CW, WD and TS) has about 480,000 people. I think most people in Waterford would be perfectly happy with the range of services available at NOC. It's not A380s to Dubai we're talking about here!

Waterford's passenger number almost halved in 2011 to what it was at peak levels because airlines cancelled their routes, surely they wouldn't cancel routes if there was a huge demand as you say. It now serves around 85,000 people a year.

Kerry on the other hand being between an hour and a half away from ORK and SNN each direction still managed over 300,000 in 2011 but mind you that could keep decreasing and if it does..
NOC is actually the only major airport in Connaught and Dublin is the only one in Leinster as opposed to 4 in Munster.

Don't get me wrong, I love aviation and I'd love to see all these airports thriving, but I just don't think it's feasible.

Teebor, believe it or not I have lived 2 hours away from an airport before I moved to Dublin.

FWVT

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Waterford's passenger number almost halved in 2011 to what it was at peak levels because airlines cancelled their routes, surely they wouldn't cancel routes if there was a huge demand as you say. It now serves around 85,000 people a year.

Kerry on the other hand being between an hour and a half away from ORK and SNN each direction still managed over 300,000 in 2011 but mind you that could keep decreasing and if it does..
NOC is actually the only major airport in Connaught and Dublin is the only one in Leinster as opposed to 4 in Munster.

Don't get me wrong, I love aviation and I'd love to see all these airports thriving, but I just don't think it's feasible.

Teebor, believe it or not I have lived 2 hours away from an airport before I moved to Dublin.

It would be nice if they had put the airports in that map in the right places.

Anyway, I love flying into Waterford and would love to see it thrive. I think another difference between there and Kerry is its proximity to Rosslare, also the M9. Kerry, on the other hand, is the best located to serve the large SW Kerry tourism potential. It's not an easy drive from Cork or Shannon to say Dingle. Continentals prefer such areas to the southeast, which has not much in the way of tourist attractions.

Teebor15

Waterford's passenger number almost halved in 2011 to what it was at peak levels because airlines cancelled their routes, surely they wouldn't cancel routes if there was a huge demand as you say. It now serves around 85,000 people a year.

The demand is there..for cheap air travel..just as it is in every other region. This demand is met in the other regions by the provision of jet capable runways who can cater for the Low cost carriers.

Even without the jet capable runway there is still a demand there was doing fine til the the carrier (AerArann) decided to meddle with the whole thing and made a mess of it. This is well documented elsewhere.

Kerry on the other hand being between an hour and a half away from ORK and SNN each direction still managed over 300,000 in 2011

Now i wonder why that is..maybe they have a jet capable runway!:rolleyes:

Teebor, believe it or not I have lived 2 hours away from an airport before I moved to Dublin.

Well done!

LeftBase

fricatus wrote: »

How come Ryanair operate 737s into Kerry and Knock then? Surely the catchment population for those airports is smaller than Waterford's?

They operate into Kerry because it is a big tourist destination for visitors. It serves Dingle etc. There is more than enough demand for teary eyes Americans returning to the aul sod, plus UK/continental tourists to make the service viable. Waterford sadly does not serve most of the main tourist attractions of the South East any better than Cork does.

All of Connacht has a population of about 540,000, which is enough to support plenty of flights. The south-east (KK, WX, CW, WD and TS) has about 480,000 people. I think most people in Waterford would be perfectly happy with the range of services available at NOC. It's not A380s to Dubai we're talking about here!

Well here goes my neck on the chopping block anyhow. Knock stays open for a number of reasons. One being tourism in the West of Ireland and the above mentioned teary eyed Yanks etc. Another being stroke politics and the power of the church. The trip from Waterford to Dublin is fairly easy as it is motorway almost all the way to the gates of the airport. However the trip from the Mid West/North West to SNN is a Camel ride.

Peregrine

Teebor15 wrote: »

The demand is there..for cheap air travel..just as it is in every other region. This demand is met in the other regions by the provision of jet capable runways who can cater for the Low cost carriers.

Even without the jet capable runway there is still a demand there was doing fine til the the carrier (AerArann) decided to meddle with the whole thing and made a mess of it. This is well documented elsewhere.

Aer Arann pulled out because the market simply wasn't there and they were having difficulties with pax numbers.

‘Over recent months, the airline has conducted a root and branch evaluation of all routes. It was clear from this evaluation that our Waterford routes have not performed to a sustainable level.

‘We have worked hard to overcome recent challenges, built a successful new partnership with Aer Lingus and grown our passenger numbers. If we are to protect and nurture these gains, we have got to concentrate resources on services that offer sustainable returns.

Aran Arann is doing well under Aer Lingus at the moment. Companies don't wait around for people, if they can't fill their aircraft from a region they'll find some place that will. Waterford and all of Leinster is just too well connected to Dublin to have a major airport.

Teebor15 wrote: »

Now i wonder why that is..maybe they have a jet capable runway!:rolleyes:

Having a jet capable runway doesn't ensure jets landing there. As it stands, tourist attractions in the South East is almost non existent compared to Kerry, Shannon and Cork. If Aer Arann couldn't fill their ATRs and Flybe couldn't fill their Dash 8s or whatever aircraft they used with their 4 times a week service, I don't see what makes you think airlines can fill 737s everyday.

Jamie2k9

Aer Arann pulled out because the market simply wasn't there and they were having difficulties with pax numbers.

Aer Arann pulled out because they pulled there most profitable route operated by a ATR72 and replaced it with Southend with an ATR42. Since SEN started passengers numbers dropped and contuined to do so, both Aer Arann and the airport were told time and time again that LTN was preferred but of course Aer Arann kept SEN. SEN-DUB will be next for the chop, schedule change this summer is last chance. All this conbined with an aircraft tech every five minutes with passengers delayed hours and a string of cancelled flights because of EI regional services.

Teebor15

Aer Arann pulled out because the market simply wasn't there and they were having difficulties with pax numbers.


Quote:



‘Over recent months, the airline has conducted a root and branch evaluation of all routes. It was clear from this evaluation that our Waterford routes have not performed to a sustainable level.



Quote:



‘We have worked hard to overcome recent challenges, built a successful new partnership with Aer Lingus and grown our passenger numbers. If we are to protect and nurture these gains, we have got to concentrate resources on services that offer sustainable returns.

Thats the AerArann press statement :rolleyes:..of course their not going to say the truth which is what Jamie2k has just posted and is well known in aviation circles.

Having a jet capable runway doesn't ensure jets landing there. As it stands, tourist attractions in the South East is almost non existent compared to Kerry, Shannon and Cork

.

Yes thats correct. But its not all about tourists..their is approx 500,000 people whos closest airport is Waterford. The new M9 motorway works both ways. Yes it brings people of the South East closer to Dublin but it also brings the people from Kilkenny Carlow even Kildare closer to Waterford. Add the new City by-pass and new road to the airport then access should not be a problem. Though i do think the airport would fare better if it had been located in South Kilkenny buts thats not going to change now.

If Aer Arann couldn't fill their ATRs

See above

Flybe couldn't fill their Dash 8s or whatever aircraft they used with their 4 times a week service

Flybe had their own financial issues and like they have done in previous years they suspend services on some routes (Waterford was'nt the only one) for 6 weeks after christmas, the deadest time of the year. They are now back with the same schedule and from what i hear the first few flights have been nearly full..remember this is feb/mar! And there is strong rumours from a number of source that next week they will announce Manchester 4 weekly. I believe they would jump on Luton straight away if they had a presence there already but unfortunately logistics outrule that for the moment but hopefully something will come of it soon!

I don't see what makes you think airlines can fill 737s everyday

The Waterford-Luton route was the most profitable route in the whole AerArann network a couple of years back..offering 3 return flights a day at one stage on a 66 seat AT72..thats almost 200 seats each way with their "expensive" tickets..id say you would have no problem filling a Ryanair 189 seat B738.

Thats not including the amount of people locally who say to me they would fly from Waterford if it was a cheaper or if Ryanair flew from there. Alot of it is perception..if you have a B738/A320 using your airport people now percive you as a "real" airport and will always check your prices first and will find the cheap fares. Bar the solid base of regular passengers many people check maybe once when someone reminds them to try waterford..find the price a few quid dearer then go awy with that perception in their head that Waterford is always dearer and dont try again.

Irish Steve

Oh dear. Has everyone forgotten where Ryanair started up all those years ago,

The airline began with a 14-seat Embraer Bandeirante turboprop aircraft, flying between Waterford and Gatwick Airport

That's an even smaller (Horrible) version of "propellory" things, but it got them started.

At a later stage they moved on to ................. ATR42's, just like Aer Arann are still using.

When Ryanair departed the ATR scene, another new airline nearly got going in Galway, with plans to also serve Waterford, but thats history.

Then Aer Arann came along with ATR's and FLybe, among others,

The bottom line is that if the times are right, and the prices are reasonable. people WILL use them. If the times don't suit, or it's way expensive compared to alternatives, then the alternatives tend to be the ones that win out.

All about offering the right product (routes) at the right prices and doing it reliably.

islanderre

Irish Steve,
You mentioned: 'When Ryanair departed the ATR scene, another new airline nearly got going in Galway, with plans to also serve Waterford, but thats history.'

Would this be 'EUROWEST' Airlines???????...... I recall they had an office @ the petrol station across the road at the petrol station but they never got off the ground so to speak.

Regards,
Islanderre

Masala

eehhh.... getting an runway that will allow it to attract Ryanair is not going to 'make' Waterford. Having FR doesn't mean that the airport will be successful. Moving up to Cat 7 operations is costly business in terms of manpower and machinery. FR are not known for paying the going rates so expect a major differance between revenue and costs!!

So... if they are making losses on current operations - what is the point expanding??

Irish Steve

islanderre wrote: »

Irish Steve,
You mentioned: 'When Ryanair departed the ATR scene, another new airline nearly got going in Galway, with plans to also serve Waterford, but thats history.'

Would this be 'EUROWEST' Airlines???????...... I recall they had an office @ the petrol station across the road at the petrol station but they never got off the ground so to speak.

Regards,
Islanderre

Absolutely correct, I was involved with some of that, severe problems getting the AOC from the IAA, among other things. Nearly happened, the crews were trained and in place, as was much of the ground side of things, but it all went for a ball of chalk. Some of the Galway Airport people weren't as supportive as they should have been either.

islanderre

Cheers Irish Steve,
I worked in the then 2 pump 'airport stores' and remember their office in the vacant house next door....... also, when they set up in the house, the shop started stocking Flight International which was great for me as I read it weekly front to back on the QT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good memories.....

As for Galway Airport...... I sometimes wonder did they always aim for the flash end of things and forget their roots...... that airport thrived at various times but is now a near ghost town. The M-Way to dublin was the final nail in the coffin IMHO.

CelticRambler

Irish Steve wrote: »

Oh dear. Has everyone forgotten where Ryanair started up all those years ago

Even if "everyone" remembers, they were operating in a very different marketplace then. I still remember the early Ryanair vs. Aer Lingus ads and they were able to really hammer home the difference because for getting to England (or France) your choice was Aer Lingus or B&I (or Irish Ferries).

Now, any new operator has to compete with both Aer Lingus and Ryanair, not to mention smaller operators like Flybe and CityJet, and Irish Ferries (+/- rail-and-sail or Eurolines coach services). The travelling public has plenty of choice, so if an opeator offers nothing more imaginative than a flight from A to B, a typical passenger will choose on the basis of all kinds of unjustified assumptions (journey time vs. flight time; "small properllery planes" vs. jets; local vs. national).

One of the consistent "faults" that I see with regional airports is their obsession with trying to be a successful miniature version of their nearest full-size national airport. They succeed in persuading big-name carriers to fly some routes for a period of time, but these inevitably fail because the big guys have different priorities, and supporting regional economic development is not one of them. All this leads to a series of broken promises which does nothing to convince the local population that the next one is going to be kept.

If you're trying to run a business (or take a job) that depends on a regular and reliable connection to somewhere else, you're not going to build it around a service that might not last beyond one season, and that is exactly where the airport (Waterford or any other regional airport that wants to stand on its own two feet) needs to look for support and start talking to the new breed of innovative airlines that are taking to the skies.

FWVT

Irish Steve wrote: »

Some of the Galway Airport people weren't as supportive as they should have been either.

Now where have we heard that before.

foxcoverteddy

Yes no doubt many of you have heard these things and are very knowledgable on the subject. In fact reading most of your posts has been an inspiration and to a degree a revelation as to what is really needed.
However it is nice that someone spells it all out, even if yet again, so at least one can try and make a valid judgement as to the rights and wrongs of these things.
Even if the money was available would or could Waterford become a viable proposition?
If one looks at Rosslare or the Europort, the last time we were there it looked down at heel and far from welcoming, not a good example for tourists and visitors to our beautiful country.
With the amount of traffic going through the port surely there must be a profit, however Waterford, viable or not?
I sense provided it is run properly with no hanky panky it could be a godsend to the region.
Perhaps money could come from buying shares, local, small people sensing that in years to come a few euro's might benefit the children of tomorrow.

Teebor15

eehhh.... getting an runway that will allow it to attract Ryanair is not going to 'make' Waterford

So... if they are making losses on current operations - what is the point expanding??

No..not on its own it wont..but i believe if the airport if expanded to B737/A320 size then Ryanair/AerLingus/Easyjet would come in and do the main routes LON MAN/LPL BHX and Sun flights. This raises the profile of the airport allowing turboprop/light jet carriers supplementing with routes to Edinburgh maybe even Paris/Amsterdam would bring pax numbers to similiar levels to Knock,Derry,Kerry levels. Supplement this with GA and more importantly the Search and rescue base and i think it would at least break even and more importantly be a proper strategic asset and driver for economic growth in the South East. This is worth far more millions than the odd 10 million it would cost to extend the runway and measly few quid it costs in Operational support if this was required. as it stands is the worst in the country at the moment.

Maybe i'm missing something here and i know it would not be as straightforward as that and not all happen overnight and be but to me its a no brainer.

Moving up to Cat 7 operations is costly business in terms of manpower and machinery

I presume your talking about Airport Fire Cat. If so then CAT 6 is being provided at the moment for Flybe and i believe CAT 7 does not require any more machinery just 1 or 2 more fire fighters. And as the fire service double as operations staff then with a B737/A320 operation they would be rostered on anyway.

One of the consistent "faults" that I see with regional airports is their obsession with trying to be a successful miniature version of their nearest full-size national airport. , and supporting regional economic development is not one of them

I agree with the first 2 paras of your post but how are they trying to imitate the large airports?

They succeed in persuading big-name carriers to fly some routes for a period of time, but these inevitably fail because the big guys have different priorities

Have you any examples? (I'm not sayings there are none..i'm just curious!) and even if this is the case what should they do? Not try new routes just stick with the same old same old. How do they know if a route will work unless they try it.

supporting regional economic development is not one of them

No airlines priority is to support economic development they all no matter how big, small or local want to turn a profit.

new breed of innovative airlines that are taking to the skies.

Who are these?

Neworder79

LeftBase wrote: »

Knock stays open for a number of reasons. One being tourism in the West of Ireland and the above mentioned teary eyed Yanks etc. Another being stroke politics and the power of the church.

Rubbish, there's no evidence for either of those statements and reads more like your own prejudices opinion.

There's no evidence of any significant US traffic in to NOC, teary eyed or not. Tourism accounted for about 15% of use at the last report in 2008 though this may have grown in recent years as inbound Euro routes were added.

As for stroke politics, the exact opposite has been true for the last 15 years with agile, creative management allowing the airport to grow 5-10% annually and break-even several years with limited operational subsidy. Pilgrimage charters amounted to less than 2% of traffic a few years back, so what "power of the church" means I don't know.

The vast majority of traffic in the past has been VFR (visiting friends and relatives) predominantly UK based, and outbound leisure travel with a large sun holiday offering to Spain, Canaries.

Knock "stays open" for several reasons:
- Well run in last decade, tight ship, small staff single shift, focus on marketing
- Board take no fees, all profit reinvested in facility, regional development remit
- Self funding model with departure fee, offsets airline costs
- Low cost model focus on major airline brands Ryanair, AerLingus, Flybe
- Continuos route growth, increased customer offering
- Serves a wide region 2-4 hours from other major airports
- Historically poor access road infrastructure into region, no motorways
- Infrastructure to cater for majority of aircraft, 2345x45m runway, CAT2 ILS, CAT3 Lighting, Navaids, CAT 9 Fire cover, 800,000 capacity terminal etc
- Ryanair brand has huge draw, 14 routes,
- Holiday charter business to Majorca, Croatia etc
- 0-2% delays last year, Ryanair top punctuality rating

Airport youtube video which gives a good overview:

wellboytoo

Great thread nice to see the interest, I work very close to WAT and am sick watching what stobart/Aer Arann did to a great profitable service, 5000 pax per month on LTN went to 1400 per month because people were not going to central london , so why end up the wrong side of were you are going to.
I believe there is a minimum of 120000pax a year out of WAT if only you can get a carrier to base there, but I suppose if you can base an asset elsewhere and get 240000 its a no brainer?

havetoquit

It has been insightful and helpful reading your comments and as someone who used Waterford on a regular basis to fly to see family in UK or take connecting flights from Luton to France, I am finding it a great loss right now.

I have to always use a coach to Dublin airport and to get anywhere can take me a day, door to door, depending on flight times. The flight to Nice is just once a day, so I have to either leave home at 6am or stay overnight, which makes it very expensive.

I think it is a shame, particularly as tourism is so important to us that people have to travel so far, particularly older or less mobile tourists who visit the South East from UK. One so often meets totally exhausted people with young children who have been travelling all day just to get home to the South East. The money they have to pay for the different forms of public transport, taxis etc would often be as much as the flight cost that people complain of from/to Waterford.

The actual location of Waterford did not concern those of us who used it, as even with paying the ferry at Ballyhack or going the long way round through New Ross, it was a brilliant convenience and made one's travel relatively easier, saving so much time in the process. In the event that one had to use a taxi to get there, it didn't actually break the bank either. There were also many special offers from time to time from Aerarran, so that was also a help.

Someone mentioned that when booking one always looks at the airlines and not the airport; Yes, mainly, but if you live in the South East, you just tap in Waterford and are more than happy to take whatever airline is operating. I guess I only speak for the dire affecionados of the airport service here and I have long been one of them.

Our emigration has risen drastically and although I have no figures for our region, I do know that those of our people who work in UK would appreciate being able to get home for a weekend without a whole day spent travelling, losing precious time with family.

I have no knowledge of aviation whatsoever and very much appreciated the comments and suggestions on here of those more qualified to inform.

Does anyone think that the airport is worth investing in and if not, why had more land been purchased and other projects either begun or completed one has to ask. Perhaps it will be like the new railway track built in Rosslare port, that was promptly closed not long after it's completion.. The ugly thing now sits there, an eysore at the side of the main road to the port, reminding all and sundry of our lack of foresight and management of areas of our public transport.

It makes me sad to think that so many more hotels than were needed were built, instead of investing in our airports to make things easier for tourists to get to us and also to serve our own people of the South East; families travelling to see their exiled loved ones and visa versa and let us not forget the business people, who often cannot afford to use a whole day to get to their business appointments in France, Holland and Germany.


If you see the large number of people who use the coaches daily to get to Dublin airport, which takes 3 hrs, then add the time it takes to get from one's home in the sticks, one begins to realize that perhaps not as many people as assumed actually drives to the airport from the South East, pays to leave their car there, or has a family member drive there and back in one day.

Then in summer, the South East sees a substantial influx of foreign students coming here either to our language institutes or on family exchange. They arrive in Dublin or Cork from all areas of France, Spain, Germany and Italy and then follows a long coach/car journey. The situation hardly encourages people to return.

Speaking on behalf of many people from my own area, we always have to take a taxi to Wexford to get the coach, as our families either do not live nearby or have to drive to work. I also know a number of wheel chair users, who really appreciated the shorter journey to Waterford and are now unable to travel to Cork or Dublin.



I fully understand that our small population is a huge factor in all or this, but someone mentioned Luxembourg who seem to be able to manage it, so it is confusing for us laypeople who do not know the ins and outs of the industry.

Thanks in advance to those who may possibly take time to read this post.

tankbarry

Its like anything if you have the right tools for a job you will get the job done and properly...... If you extend the runway you will get people to use it because flights will be cheaper, destinations to the sun, and people actually want to travel on a jet not a propeller aircraft although Flybe dash 8 is a nice plane.....


why buy the land to extend if your not going to extend ?

havetoquit

So agree and sorry to everyone for such a lengthy ramble previously, but it is great to at least be given the chance to air one's thoughts and concerns and to have them responded to. Calling Waterford Airport was less informative I may add, so without the good people on this great forum, we would be uninformed.

sydneybound

Neworder79 wrote: »

Rubbish, there's no evidence for either of those statements and reads more like your own prejudices opinion.

There's no evidence of any significant US traffic in to NOC, teary eyed or not. Tourism accounted for about 15% of use at the last report in 2008 though this may have grown in recent years as inbound Euro routes were added.

As for stroke politics, the exact opposite has been true for the last 15 years with agile, creative management allowing the airport to grow 5-10% annually and break-even several years with limited operational subsidy. Pilgrimage charters amounted to less than 2% of traffic a few years back, so what "power of the church" means I don't know.

The vast majority of traffic in the past has been VFR (visiting friends and relatives) predominantly UK based, and outbound leisure travel with a large sun holiday offering to Spain, Canaries.

Knock "stays open" for several reasons:
- Well run in last decade, tight ship, small staff single shift, focus on marketing
- Board take no fees, all profit reinvested in facility, regional development remit
- Self funding model with departure fee, offsets airline costs
- Low cost model focus on major airline brands Ryanair, AerLingus, Flybe
- Continuos route growth, increased customer offering
- Serves a wide region 2-4 hours from other major airports
- Historically poor access road infrastructure into region, no motorways
- Infrastructure to cater for majority of aircraft, 2345x45m runway, CAT2 ILS, CAT3 Lighting, Navaids, CAT 9 Fire cover, 800,000 capacity terminal etc
- Ryanair brand has huge draw, 14 routes,
- Holiday charter business to Majorca, Croatia etc
- 0-2% delays last year, Ryanair top punctuality rating

Airport youtube video which gives a good overview:

Fantastic post.

Jamie2k9

Self funding model

Think you may need to do some research...

L1011

tankbarry wrote: »

If you extend the runway you will get people to use it because flights will be cheaper,?

Absolutely no guarantee. If there's only a set amount of passengers likely to fly on a route, and that set number is <70, its far cheaper to use a prop.

havetoquit

Has the situation regarding the airport been highlighted by the media, in particular TV in a bid to gain investment, but perhaps this is an obvious question which has already been addressed. Sorry about lack of question mark here, keyboard key stuck.

I was out of the country when the airport changed it's operations, so am not fully aware of what has been reported by the media.

tankbarry

Calling Waterford Airport was less informative I may add

Well if you got through to the information desk and asked there for details there was no point. The staff don't even know whats going on.

Absolutely no guarantee. If there's only a set amount of passengers likely to fly on a route, and that set number is <70, its far cheaper to use a prop

summer flights would sell I think when the 146 was doing them they were nearly always full there was even people waiting to see could they get on if nobody turned up. I think it would be harder with the uk flights but I do think its possible. Its the like of ryanair you would be looking at even aer lingus.


Lorient was full everytime when it was on and priced ok when luton was at a price three 72's were full everyday. Southend , breakdown's , and ridiculous high prices were big problems

air2000

Knock "stays open" for several reasons:
- Well run in last decade, tight
ship, small staff single shift, focus on marketing
- Self funding model with
departure fee, offsets airline costs

Dont make me laugh....

Knock rode and built their empire on the PSO for the last decade. They charged Aer Arann for opening early for the flight to depart in Dublin... only in Ireland.

Every year the government cover the operating losses like it does for each regional, so much for self funding.

Abit old now but it will show how much government funding Knock has got in the early days.

http://www.safetyonthewater.ie/upload/knock_airport_report.pdf

finchkerry

air2000 wrote: »

Abit old now but it will show how much government funding Knock has got in the early days.

http://www.safetyonthewater.ie/upload/knock_airport_report.pdf

Come on that report is from 2001, 12 years old... I lost interest when I read minister Mary O Rourke!

In recent years Knock has gained more passengers and is going in the right direction or would you disagree on this too?

Let's talk Shannon bailout sure, now that's a can of worms and waste of so much public money, huge sums of money paid out...

Neworder79

Air2000
All the regionals (bar WAT) "rode and built their empire on the PSO", and OPEX subsidy (inc WAT), and some for significantly more than others. PSO ended in 2010 for most of them, why aren't they all thriving today? If it were just about operating subsidy shouldn't WAT be booming with the SAR contract covering ATC and high OPEX of recent years? You know it's not that simple, as pointed out there are many factors at play in each airport.

NOC had the advantage of large runway infrastructure from day one, and has built on that base over the decades through capital grants and its own investment (co-funded). But its growth phase in the last 10 years was largely led by a new management team in 2004, tight rein on costs and staffing hours, investment in facilities, route development and marketing and most importantly a large low-cost partner in Ryanair committed to growth. Not perfect, you may not like their choices, not 100% self funding since the recession, but still operating, serving passengers on 25 routes and growing through the cutbacks, so they did something right, no?

Sorry to Waterford posters, I replied to LeftBases comments with those points to bring a bit of perspective, show where one other airport has had some success by Irish standards, not to start another subsidy debate.

Incidentally, Government today published the starting point for the first National Aviation Policy document.

http://transport.ie/uploads/documents/feature/IssuesPaper.pdf

wellboytoo

Four flights a week to MAN by Flybe to be announced today

b757

WAT-MAN loaded onto Flybe schedule. Starting 22nd May.

4 weekly, with onward destinations to Norwich, Southampton and Exeter. And possibly more connnections to the routes served from BHX.

Hopefully more to come!

foxcoverteddy

What brilliant news, however i was reading the National Aviation Objectives and got to the point regarding Ireland's involvement in Aerospace, it came to me immediately, ready, shove a squib up the rear end of our polticians light the blue touch paper and stand clear.
sorry about that back to the report

CelticRambler

havetoquit wrote: »

... sorry to everyone for such a lengthy ramble previously ...

No need to apologise - you've actually summed up exactly what's wrong with the development strategy of most regional airport managers (not just Waterford - it's the same in the UK)

Teebor15 wrote: »

I agree with the first 2 paras of your post but how are they trying to imitate the large airports?

By not listening to people like havetoquit and desperately trying to cater to a 1970 "business traveller" market while simultaneously prostituting themselves to the lo-cos.

There is an assumption amongst route planners (and aviation forum commentators) that the only really successful route is a double-daily rotation leaving at the crack of dawn and getting back as late as possible. Well, that's great if you've got a high concentration of high-value, time-is-money dynamic business customers - but the "Regions" don't. Full stop. What they do have are smaller businesses with more flexibility and it doesn't matter if there are only two flights a week and they have to stay overnight because they'll arrange their appointments to suit.

Havetoquit points out the reality as it is for most people:

havetoquit wrote: »

I have to always use a coach to Dublin airport and to get anywhere can take me a day, door to door, depending on flight times. The flight to Nice is just once a day, so I have to either leave home at 6am or stay overnight, which makes it very expensive.

Sure, there are some people who need to get that very last pint on a Sunday night and sleep it off on the 6am Dub-Stn Monday morning, but when they're getting to their ultimate destination at the same time, the vast majority of ordinary travellers would prefer a later departure and a shorter overall journey.

I live in central France and can't get to Paris before 9am. I can't get to London before 4pm. I can just about get a day-return to Paris (arrive in the centre about 10, got to be gone by 5 to get the last). I can't do a day-trip to London (or any other European city). Our local unemployment rate is 8% - not a heaving economy, but better than than the national average, and a lot better than Ireland! :rolleyes:

tankbarry wrote: »

If you extend the runway you will get people to use it because flights will be cheaper, destinations to the sun, and people actually want to travel on a jet not a propeller aircraft although Flybe dash 8 is a nice plane.....

People will travel on a flying carpet if it's cheap enough. The airport does not need budget travellers. By definition, these are people who want to spend the least amount of money and do not appreciate the service provided by the airport. They have zero loyalty and if they even think they can save 5ct by travelling to Donegal instead of Waterford, they will.

MYOB wrote: »

Absolutely no guarantee. If there's only a set amount of passengers likely to fly on a route, and that set number is <70, its far cheaper to use a prop.

Exactly. There are plenty of aircraft that can use the runway. What any regional airport needs is the greatest possible number of destinations and a regular year-round service. That means ordinary people leading ordinary business and family lives can plan ahead. 15 regular passengers on a 19-seater twice a week, 52 weeks of the year to ten destinations is a much better advert for the airport than 150 people on a loco flight to one single city.

Teebor15 wrote: »

Have you any examples? (I'm not sayings there are none..i'm just curious!) and even if this is the case what should they do? Not try new routes just stick with the same old same old. How do they know if a route will work unless they try it.

Best example that I can think of is Manston - very similar situation to Waterford, but with a huge catchment area. They've trying again with KLM next month. We'll see how that goes. Also Anglouême, tried to make it work with Ryanair. Failed.

You're right - they need to try new routes, but I've sat in on the meetings and that's precisely what they don't do. Sooner or later someone drags out the CAA statistics showing that x passengers come from y and fly to z and if we could just grab a slice of that market everything would be fine. Wrong. Those passengers have already decided what suits them and you'll have to work really hard to persuade them to change.

The new routes need to be something really new, bordering on the experimental, e.g. Waterford-Cherbourg for folk who get sea-sick but still want to go on a driving holiday with the rest of their family.

Teebor15 wrote: »

No airlines priority is to support economic development they all no matter how big, small or local want to turn a profit.

Agreed - that's why it doesn't make sense for airport managers to sell their souls to the major carriers. Their interests are not the same, but the small and local carriers do share an interest. Take my ferry-alternative example again - couple that with a night's accommodation and breakfast, maybe a pre- or post-flight massage waiting for the family to turn up, and intelligent baggage handling/security clearance. Now you've created something that makes a Waterford departure a completely unique experience that Dublin will never be able to offer.

Look to the East for another example - the People's Airport/Airline of St. Gallen-Altenrhein. One aircraft, one destination (double daily). Very successful. So successful, in fact, that Austrian Airlines (who abandonned the service to Vienna prompting the creating of People's) came back to mop up the extra demand.

foxcoverteddy

Bonjour Celtic Rambler.
What a bloody interesting post, creative and positive and something people can chew over, you make it sound so simple, it probably is.
Wouldn't eurostar get you to london quicker? It is a bit like flying.
Good luck Foxy

fricatus

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Bonjour Celtic Rambler.
What a bloody interesting post

You said it - top drawer Celtic Rambler!

Fabio

That's very good news, it will be interesting to seeif that flight is supported now...

L1011

Amazed something came through this late, glad to be wrong with my prediction that it was too late in the season.