Waterford Airport

CelticRambler

Teebor15 wrote: »

Do you want these free too?

What are the revenue streams for the airport? will you be paying the full published charges as per the website?

"Yes" to the first; "No" to the last. Obviously we need a functioning airport if we're to bring passengers in, and someone somewhere has to pay for that. How we make the figures add up depends on how much the airport buys into our vision, but let's be clear about it: sooner or later, the customer will pay - but we believe we can make people feel good about paying. It works in plenty of other industries.

Teebor15 wrote: »

Well i'm still sceptical that you can get 36 people per flight at nearly 300 euro a return ticket to an unknown destination but then i said the same when AerArann launched Lorient a few years back and they were an immediate hit so who knows. Then again people had more money in there pockets then and were not as price aware as now.

That works both ways - Waterford is an unknown destination to most of Europe :eek: - but the destinations I have in mind are very well known (one was a major news headline a few weeks ago) but their airports have short runways so there is no scheduled service at all to one and extremely limited service to the other.

But here again, we're back to one of the points raised earlier in the discussion. "nearly 300 euro" is actually 252, all-in, max, as direct as you can get and a premium service. Compare that with a semi-random scan of some August flights this morning:
Flybe Waterford-Paris, about 312€ for a 5-hour/8-hour flight and restricted T&C ticket PLUS say 24€ parking at Waterford;
AerLingus Dublin-Paris, about 350€, direct to CdG + 1hr to central Paris PLUS 1-2hr to get to Dublin PLUS at least 1hr in Dublin Apt PLUS cost of petrol/toll/train/bus/parking if you need it.
Ryanair Dublin-somewherethatisn'tParis, about 215€, very restricted T&C ticket PLUS 1h30 & 13-20€ to get to Paris PLUS all of the above to get to Dublin.

Does 252 (including 3-7 days' parking and baggage) still sound like a lot, or even 276 to get you to the centre of Paris, including all local transfers? (Note: if we were offering a "Paris" service - which I would like to do - we'd fly to a real Paris airport, 20 mins to a proper monument)

The question that needs to be asked is: does Waterford want to scrape by on budget services and cheapskate travellers, or does it want to attract the kind of person who thinks that they (or their business) is worth the real cost of a ticket, and more importantly, is the Airport itself worth visiting? I know of two EU airports with no scheduled flights and one with a single route that have hundreds people visit every day because the airport offers something worth coming for. The two common factors between these three - good food and no parking charges.

Teebor15 wrote: »

To establish cultural, social, emotiona links takes time..i presume you have deep pockets!!

Well that's why we need a medium-long term commitment from Waterford (and Wexford/East Cork/KK/Carlow) people apart from those concerned with the airport. I am getting that kind of commitment from other communities following just a handful of e-mails.

pclancy wrote: »

This seems like a lot of commercial information to be putting on a public internet forum.

Not really, and it's nothing compared to what we'll put out if/when we pass the proof-of-concept stage. Besides, at this stage it looks like we could paste our whole business plan on every billboard in Europe and the mainstream carriers would still ignore it, because 90% of what we propose is the opposite of what they think is the right way to run an airline/airport. Seeing as just about all EU airlines manage to make substantial losses year after year after year, I can live with a 10% chance of them actually knowing what they're talking about. I do, however, pay attention to MO'L's pearls of wisdom - and our strategy takes inspiration from some of his comments.

Teebor15 wrote: »

So i know you said earlier you got a poor response when you came knocking first. So just let me know what happened again. You rang and asked to speak to the CEO and...?

I don't think it's appropriate to answer that on a public forum; besides, it's history - like Aer Arann. What matters is what happens in the future.

Masala

Coming in a little late on this thread (so excuse if I picked things up wrong)

1. I resume this will be mostly OUTBOUND.... you'll have to do a huge amount of marketing in France to sell this concept. Especially if u only doing 16-24 weeks series. The French didn't fill the Lorient flights when they were there.

2. The only revenue to the airport you say is Car Park. Lets say there are 3 per vehicle - possible 16 vehicles and lets say 1/2 get dropped off - so that 8 x €24 = €200 rounded a week. Is that it..... that not going to keep Waterford open. Sure - you collect from a Sweet machine in the concourse.

3. What is the benefit locally if you are bringing people out of the county....why should they local tourism/ council etc. support such a series.

4. I don't mean to be mean here ... but you are expecting a lot FREE. You have to appreciate that the Airport has bills and need to be paid. Also... with the Airport getting Govt subvention there is an onus on them to maximise their revenue. The Govt is not there to subside charter charges. Also - once there start giving FREE charges - they are on a slippery slope. Wont be long before Flybe will be questioning 'why we paying to subsidise them'....


Am just shooting from the hip here... but I can't see why you expect so much.

CelticRambler

Not mean at all - these are exactly the questions that we started with five years ago.

1. You're right - the French don't fly. Air transport accounts for 1.4% of French tavellers' kms. They travel by bike, by car, by bus and by train, but not by 'plane. Why is that? Because that's how they've always done it. Our response: target children (and I mean children) so that they learn that it doesn't have to take 14 hours to travel from one side of their country to the other. Our strategy (which, to refer again to pclancy's comment, is what I haven't put on here) is to give them the means and the motive to get on board an aircraft.

BUT the world is changing and as it happens there is huge demand for flights to Ireland from the area known as "le Grand Centre" - an area the size of Ireland with NO direct flights to the destination that features in the N°1 spot in every single survey. It works both ways - this area is the heartland of traditional French music and dance ... and hardly anyone in Ireland has ever seen or heard of it (neither the region nor the culture). I have a group lined up to play a promotional tour in the October holidays (that's what I need the hangar for) provided we can get a service in place.

2 & 4. You've misunderstood me there (2), but you've highlighted the point: car park fees are a massive turn-off for very little revenue when an airport is barely alive, so instead of squeezing outbound passengers - who are probably paying the government subsidy anyway - and putting up a "get lost" sign for non-passengers, get rid of the charge and sell something inside the terminal that makes an 8€ profit. As to the "Flybe" hypothetical question, I had this discussion on another forum in relation to Knock and it's departing passenger's "development fee". The airport's customer is the airline, not the passenger. What happens airside is/should be at the airline's expense and what happens landside is the airport's expense. If an airport decides to prostitute itself to a low-fares carrier, then it should not expect passengers to pay for its make-up and lingerie. That is the slippery slope.

3. 'Planes go both ways. If there are more people using the service one way than the other, then the local tourist board/council/chamber of commerce aren't doing a very good job at promoting their region. That's precisely my complaint - not about Waterford Airport management, but about every single organisation that I've contacted in Waterford so far. You've got a population at this end (France) that just wants to connect with Ireland. They've never heard of a place called Waterford, but if it's in Ireland and that's where the 'plane lands, they'll go there.

But as I've explained above, that's not good enough for me. I'm not interested in one-time see-it-before-I-die travellers, I'm looking for long-term sustainable links that give 36 people every week a reason to go specifically to Waterford, or travel from Waterford to here. If I can do that on one route, I can do it on another and another and another, and now an enthusiastic Waterford business has four new markets of 200-500k people each. A new market of one million people within two hours of the city, and four town/cities whose first point of contact with Ireland is Waterford.

The obsession with attracting low-cost carriers and shuffling as many millions of passengers through the terminal as possible ignores the fundamental economic argument: ONE flight carrying ONE passenger a week is enough to give access to a new market for goods and services if that passenger cares enough about the commercial potential of the link. You do not get that from someone who wakes up some day and thinks "where can I go for 19€99?"

Or, to look at it another way, using the figures as given: a group of 8 musicians @ 252€ pp return = 2016€ ÷ 5 gigs = 404€ How many Irish bands would play a 4-hour gig for 400€ and is there any pub, hotel or other venue in Waterford that would not make 2000€ on drinks alone for such an evening? That's what's on offer - these people will play for free in return for free flights to Ireland (and I'll be paying them a lot more than 400€ to play for the France Rose of Tralee Event next month) - so yes, I expect "a lot" for free from the folk in and around Waterford. Like I said before: you guys are the exception - just about every other airport+community comes back with a dozen proposals that I never even thought of asking for.

You won't get anything like that from a mainstream airline because they're only interested in selling seats on their aircraft; and restored daily flights to London won't give you access to a single customer that you can't already reach with existing connections. All the growth potential - and financial reward - lies in being different, very different.

sunnysoutheast

CelticRambler wrote: »

....All the growth potential - and financial reward - lies in being different, very different.

Whilst I honestly wish you all the best with your business ventures (I have French connections too) I can't help but feel that the one thing the SE region needs is a decent connection to a major airport in the major business region of our largest trading partner, with the seasonal traffic the icing on the cake, as it were.

The simple fact is that the RE routes did very well when it was an ATR72 flying to Luton, I used it many times. When Stobart took over we then had an elderly 42 flying to Southend. You just couldn't rely on it unless you took the first flight out, so I took ORK or DUB flights, and I can see WAT airport from my attic windows.

I have said on this forum before that a decently-timed LGW or LTN flight would get 40+ return flights a year from me, and there are many others like me I'm sure.

foxcoverteddy

Okay perhaps I talk in riddles, sorry. Kilkenny has a cultural thing with a French Town, not that one sees much coming from France or Kilkenny doing anything particularly french, but isn't this an opening to get people aware of both countries.
I thought twinning was a waste but if used to its full potential it could benefit both countries.
Surely it is a step for Waterford, the Sancere area or the Loire Valley. Do we have any french restaurants? Chez Pierre in Kilkenny and Campagne .
I enjoy the posts and thank you, regards Foxy

lomb

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Whilst I honestly wish you all the best with your business ventures (I have French connections too) I can't help but feel that the one thing the SE region needs is a decent connection to a major airport in the major business region of our largest trading partner, with the seasonal traffic the icing on the cake, as it were.

The simple fact is that the RE routes did very well when it was an ATR72 flying to Luton, I used it many times. When Stobart took over we then had an elderly 42 flying to Southend. You just couldn't rely on it unless you took the first flight out, so I took ORK or DUB flights, and I can see WAT airport from my attic windows.

I have said on this forum before that a decently-timed LGW or LTN flight would get 40+ return flights a year from me, and there are many others like me I'm sure.

Why not learn to fly then? It would be nice to fly ones own aircraft about. Unfortunately the weather being what it is in Ireland an Instrument Rating would be mandatory which isnt cheap in time or money. Cheap IR equipped aircraft can be had for 15-20k (Jodels).

Irish Steve

lomb wrote: »

Why not learn to fly then? It would be nice to fly ones own aircraft about. Unfortunately the weather being what it is in Ireland an Instrument Rating would be mandatory which isnt cheap in time or money. Cheap IR equipped aircraft can be had for 15-20k (Jodels).

Not wishing to rain on your parade, there is a more than subtle difference in speed and range between an ATR and a Jodel, The concept is good, but to be realistic, it would need something like a PA30 or PA39 Twin Comanche to be realistic in terms of regular flights from Ireland to the East of the UK in a reasonable time scale.

25 years ago, as a computer consultant I was doing exactly that while building hours for a CPL, from Exeter to Dublin took me 10 minutes longer than the similar flight from Bristol to Dublin in a Shorts 360.

Agree re the IR, and getting into a lot of places in the UK is not going to happen without one, and for any serious regular cross water flying, a twin is more comfortable than a single, and has the ability to be fitted with the extras that make single crew IFR more tolerable. The PA39 was well able to do a trip like Dublin Brussels (3 Hrs) with plenty of reserves, and had the relevant equipment to make it easier to do, which is also a factor.

If circumstances were different, I'd still have the airplane, but that's another long story.......Suffice to say that it was a good tool for the job I needed it for at the time, and not horrifically expensive to run, though now, I'm not so sure, some of the changes that have been introduced have not helped in that respect.

lomb

These days fuel costs being what they are unless you have access to to a spare million and are prepared to spend it then the 400 or so euros an hour running cost of a light twin would be prohibitive. Luckily there are more modern singles which are not horrifically expensive and are fast and comfortable but have the downside of high initial prices.
The Jodels could be used on a budget and some have 10 hours endurance with a cruise of over a 100 knots. Of course theres no snob value in an old Jodel it goes without saying:)

CelticRambler

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

The simple fact is that the RE routes did very well when it was an ATR72 flying to Luton, I used it many times. When Stobart took over we then had an elderly 42 flying to Southend. You just couldn't rely on it unless you took the first flight out, so I took ORK or DUB flights, and I can see WAT airport from my attic windows.

I have said on this forum before that a decently-timed LGW or LTN flight would get 40+ return flights a year from me, and there are many others like me I'm sure.

At what cost, though? We know, with hindsight, that RE were unable to effectively manage their revenue and had to be bailed out. If RE/Stobart decided to replace a 65/70-seat aircraft with a 45-seater, then one would have to assume that the demand was never really there.

Now, when you're dealing with smaller aircraft, not only are you looking at higher fares, but you've also go airport policies to consider. Not for the regional airport, but the big facilities that are beginning to reach their max capacity. If they have just a couple of slots left for the 0800-1000 period, they will inevitably favour an airline with a B737 or A320, not a small carrier with just 30-40 passengers from an unknown part of the world.

So this means a Waterford flight will get in at, say 1030, maybe 1100 and has to be gone before the evening peak. It's no longer so attractive for day-trip business travellers, around whom the whole model is built ... CTR+ALT+DEL

You can be sure that if the route made financial sense, WAT management wouldn't have to try so hard to convince someone, anyone, to serve it.

tankbarry

At what cost, though? We know, with hindsight, that RE were unable to effectively manage their revenue and had to be bailed out. If RE/Stobart decided to replace a 65/70-seat aircraft with a 45-seater, then one would have to assume that the demand was never really there.

demand was there when they were pricing it right. when it was priced right there was 3 full atr 72's leaving waterford.

questionmark?

tankbarry wrote: »

demand was there when they were pricing it right. when it was priced right there was 3 full atr 72's leaving waterford.

On that basis it does seem strange that no one else is willing to take the route on.Surely somebody will take the plunge.

b757

questionmark? wrote: »

On that basis it does seem strange that no one else is willing to take the route on.Surely somebody will take the plunge.

While this is true I do feel that the poor loads on the ATR42 going to Southend the past 2 years with RE may be the cause, and the leading factor why we may not have a London service yet.

Plus with Flybe; the lack of available aircraft this summer could be also the problem. Hopefully after we can have one announced, possibly starting in the new year.

Joe 90

b757 wrote: »

While this is true I do feel that the poor loads on the ATR42 going to Southend the past 2 years with RE may be the cause, and the leading factor why we may not have a London service yet.

Plus with Flybe; the lack of available aircraft this summer could be also the problem. Hopefully after we can have one announced, possibly starting in the new year.

People don't realise that Southend is no more unhandy by train for London than say Stansted. I live in Ilford, just to the east of London and would reckon that its six of one and half a dozen of the other.

The thing is that as London is so BIG, you really need to think about what part of London when you think about what airport. I would only use Gatwick as a last resort and would rate Heathrow little better. On the other hand if I lived in South West London Gatwick would be my preferred option. If I lived in West London Heathrow would be the only choice.

And by South West London I don't mean an SW post code. SW5 is Earls Court, West London. You need to look at a map.:)

Edit to add: For the City, Southend would be a better bet than Heathrow. Train straight to Liverpool Street. For Docklands, get off train at Stratford and jump on DLR.

foxcoverteddy

Joe you left out Luton, though i always felt it was too far away, Southend in many ways greatr for parts of East Anglia and East London, though London city has many advantages, it's a bit hairy going round the office blocks.
Heathrow much too big, though Tube is real nifty into town.
Can't say much about Waterford where transport is concerned, perhaps that will come, anyway certainly easier than cork or Dub.
Some of the times people quote must be rated at max motorway speed, it took me over two hours from outside Kilkenny going to clonmel and then Cahir and motorway.
It must depend on the size of the car. Itold the other half that a fiat 500 was not that fast.

Joe 90

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Joe you left out Luton, though i always felt it was too far away, Southend in many ways greatr for parts of East Anglia and East London, though London city has many advantages, it's a bit hairy going round the office blocks.
Heathrow much too big, though Tube is real nifty into town.
Can't say much about Waterford where transport is concerned, perhaps that will come, anyway certainly easier than cork or Dub.
Some of the times people quote must be rated at max motorway speed, it took me over two hours from outside Kilkenny going to clonmel and then Cahir and motorway.
It must depend on the size of the car. Itold the other half that a fiat 500 was not that fast.

Yes, didn't think of Luton, never been there on a commercial flight so I just didn't think of it.

Funny you mention London City, I had a trip on the cable car across the Thames the other day, never having been on a cable car in my life before. It was quite interesting to see the PAPIs from the cable car.
Edit to add: For those who don't know the new cable car across the Thames is just beside the London City Airport.

questionmark?

This thread has been very quite!

I see today that Mr Doyle the CEO of Waterford airport has left his post for a job with the Department of transport after six and half years at the helm. What type of individual will want to take on the role?

I was surprised to see that the airport receives 1million per year from the public coffers. Is this for having the Coastguard based there?

Checked out their facebook page and saw a comment by Waterford that they are trying hard to get the London route back up and running. Stated that the route is commercially viable but the issue lies with any potential carrier having to set up a base in Waterford. If the Birmingham and Manchester routes proove a success, do you guys think Flybe would consider basing a plane in order to start a London route, if or when a plane becomes available.

L1011

questionmark? wrote: »

If the Birmingham and Manchester routes proove a success, do you guys think Flybe would consider basing a plane in order to start a London route, if or when a plane becomes available.

Very unlikely, Flybe are pulling out of London Gatwick and only operate a tiny number of flights to Luton.

Aer Arann with more craft could easily return, but probably Southend not Luton. Their main reason for pulling out was lack of planes, but they're increasing the fleet size somewhat this year.

b757

MYOB wrote: »

Very unlikely, Flybe are pulling out of London Gatwick and only operate a tiny number of flights to Luton.

Aer Arann with more craft could easily return, but probably Southend not Luton. Their main reason for pulling out was lack of planes, but they're increasing the fleet size somewhat this year.

Southend will NOT be back..

Flybe could be up for the Luton flights...

Jamie2k9

MYOB wrote: »

Very unlikely, Flybe are pulling out of London Gatwick and only operate a tiny number of flights to Luton.

Aer Arann with more craft could easily return, but probably Southend not Luton. Their main reason for pulling out was lack of planes, but they're increasing the fleet size somewhat this year.

If RE were to return it would have to be Luton over Southend. If RE want to be profitable from WAT then it has to be LTN. Aer Lingus know this and I bet they would return to LTN.


I wouldn't rule out Flybe from basing an aircraft, although its a long shot but it could happen. They could test the market without basing an aircraft, quiet a few people in the UK are surprised they have not used their available slot to operate a LTN rotation.

BE's cost base will see a major reduction once LGW closes and they have 20 million, most will go to reducing losses but they will have plenty of capacity spare but I think they are interested in WAT but being very careful about risks involved.

The CEO's has done a fantastic job over the last few years and whoever replaces him will have a tough job to fill.

questionmark?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If RE were to return it would have to be Luton over Southend. If RE want to be profitable from WAT then it has to be LTN. Aer Lingus know this and I bet they would return to LTN.

I didn't even consider Aer Arann coming back to Waterford in the near future. They seem to be focused on been a feeder service for Aer Lingus as that is where they are making some dosh. Can't see them becoming a true regional airline like they were, so banking on Flybe, although it brings a degree of risk having only one airline at the airport.

Jamie2k9

questionmark? wrote: »

I didn't even consider Aer Arann coming back to Waterford in the near future. They seem to be focused on been a feeder service for Aer Lingus as that is where they are making some dosh. Can't see them becoming a true regional airline like they were, so banking on Flybe, although it brings a degree of risk having only one airline at the airport.

I agree with RE but its them who destroyed there own operation if you look at the state of their operations between 2010 and 2012 the resulted in a airport switch where people didn't want, weekly cancelled flights, tech aircraft every 5 minutes and all this at a time when the carrier lost thousands of loyal passengers.

The CAA stats don't lie and when SEN started you can see that thousands of passengers continued to fly to LTN but from DUB with FR.

notharrypotter

between 2010 and 2012

I am open to correction but didn't many of AER ARRAN the flights at that time originate and end in Galway?

If I am correct then how many passengers started/finished in Galway and how many got on/off in Waterford?

donvito99

questionmark? wrote: »

Stated that the route is commercially viable but the issue lies with any potential carrier having to set up a base in Waterford.

So, it's not commercially viable then?

b757

donvito99 wrote: »

So, it's not commercially viable then?

Yes it still is, most flight's from WAT-LTN with RE on the 42 was completely full 90% of the time.

WAT-SEN were only half loads. The cost is setting up a base and the use of an extra aircraft which Flybe does not currently have. When the Gatwick base closes and some aircraft become available, i'm sure we may get one of the Dash 8's here in WAT.

notharrypotter wrote: »

I am open to correction but didn't many of AER ARRAN the flights at that time originate and end in Galway?

If I am correct then how many passengers started/finished in Galway and how many got on/off in Waterford?

The Galway loads apparently were terrible, why do you think it got the axe in late 2011?

L1011

Galway was a positioning flight that they sold tickets on basically, didn't it end due to Galway ending for everything?

notharrypotter

So my belief was correct that it originated/ended in Galway.

The Galway loads apparently were terrible

Galway was a positioning flight that they sold tickets on

Can anyone actually provide hard numbers of passengers who started/ended in Galway?

Or where would I find this data?

L1011

I've no idea, but remember that it was the Birmingham flight, not Luton which is what was being discussed just there.

Jamie2k9

The reason the GWY flights stopped in WAT was to cut costs, once the Galway PSO finished the true picture of their GWY operation became clear. They released a stat when they reduced/closed GWY saying that every route was deeply loss making and bookings continued to decline and that 9 of every 10 seats were empty. Will post the link when I find it.

The flights via WAT were almost empty until they departed WAT, I'm sure the CAA stats will reflect this and GWY still have more capacity on LTN than WAT and they still didn't work.

They spent years building up a profitable operation at Waterford and it was taxpayers keeping the GWY's services going by the PSO. This is no including that operating funds both airport receive.

This all at a time that Knock had major increase in pax and competiation increased with EDI started by Flybe, increased MAN by bmibaby and LGW started by Aer Lingus.

Edit - the link
http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/45876/empty-seats-the-reason-aer-arann-stopped-winter-flights-at-galway-airport-says-walsh

notharrypotter

From the CSO pages for 2011 Galway ceased operations in October
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/transport/2011/transport11.pdf

CSO 2009/2010
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/transport/2010/transport0910.pdf

Waterford passenger numbers in 2011 were 81575.
Waterford passenger numbers in 2010 were 103986.


Waterford Airport Wikipedia says in 2010 it had 3211 passengers from Galway but I cant find data for 2011.

The CSO counts transiting passengers twice so is the correct figure for Waterford originating passengers in 2010
103986 - 3211 -3211 ?

Jamie2k9

notharrypotter wrote: »

From the CSO pages for 2011 Galway ceased operations in October
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/transport/2011/transport11.pdf

CSO 2009/2010
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/transport/2010/transport0910.pdf

Waterford passenger numbers in 2011 were 81575.
Waterford passenger numbers in 2010 were 103986.


Waterford Airport Wikipedia says in 2010 it had 3211 passengers from Galway but I cant find data for 2011.

The CSO counts transiting passengers twice so is the correct figure for Waterford originating passengers in 2010
103986 - 3211 -3211 ?

I don't think transfer passengers are included, GWY would give their data to the CSO and WAT would give their data. CAA stats are correct and BTW don't believe what you read on wiki, not all correct.