Vegetarianism

--Kaiser--

Shenshen wrote: »

I know of a good few animals who would laugh at that claim... tigers, sharks and the occasional Boa Constrictor spring to mind.

Can I meet your laughing animals?

Humans are the apex of apex predators. Fossil records have suggested that in paeleolithic Europe early humans killed more animals than wolves

smash

Shenshen wrote: »

I know of a good few animals who would laugh at that claim... tigers, sharks and the occasional Boa Constrictor spring to mind.

We eat more of them than they do of us

jester77

A life without steak, chicken, fish, beef, lamb, pork, turkey, pork, bacon, ham, horse :eek: .... the horrors, I'd rather live 10 years on a meat & fish diet than 50 years on plants.

Shenshen

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Can I meet your laughing animals?

Humans are the apex of apex predators. Fossil records have suggested that in paeleolithic Europe early humans killed more animals than wolves

And from that you derive a moral imperative for every single human being to eat meat?

Odd.

--Kaiser--

Shenshen wrote: »

And from that you derive a moral imperative for every single human being to eat meat?

Odd.

What's odd if that you inferred anything of the sort from my posts. I eat meat as a large part of my diet as my species has evolved eating meat as a large part of it's diet

Shenshen

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

What's odd if that you inferred anything of the sort from my posts. I eat meat as a large part of my diet as my species has evolved eating meat as a large part of it's diet

And yet you seem to appear in every single thread about vegetarianism in AH, to pour vitriol over anyone who admits to being vegetarian and dares to outline their personal reasons for their personal choice of diet.

--Kaiser--

Shenshen wrote: »

And yet you seem to appear in every single thread about vegetarianism in AH, to pour vitriol over anyone who admits to being vegetarian and dares to outline their personal reasons for their personal choice of diet.

The vitriol comes out when people start asserting that humans are naturally herbivorous or that meat eating is inherently unhealthy, unnatural or immoral

Sam Kade

ElvisChrist6 wrote: »

I've never taken steroids and yet I can still run fast, how do you know steroids would make me run faster? Same logic, I'm not even going to argue whether or not it is healthier. Just wanted to point out your logic is flawed!

That's more or less the point I was making to the poster I quoted:rolleyes:

CreepingDeath

Shenshen wrote: »

And from that you derive a moral imperative for every single human being to eat meat?

What has morality got to do with evolution?

Early man gained significant advantages from eating calorie rich meat.
Hunting animals helped increase our IQ and tool making abilities.

Are you denying the huge advantages to eating meat that have got us this far?

Or do you just want all of mankind to perform an evolutionary U-turn for your personal belief system?

As with everything on earth, carnivores versus vegetarians will ultimately be resolved by natures supply & demand.
The price of meat will increase until some form of cheaper artificial meat can be produced.

Shenshen

CreepingDeath wrote: »

What has morality got to do with evolution?

Early man gained significant advantages from eating calorie rich meat.
Hunting animals helped increase our IQ and tool making abilities.

Are you denying the huge advantages to eating meat that have got us this far?

Or do you just want all of mankind to perform an evolutionary U-turn for your personal belief system?

All of mankind?
I'm sorry, I honestly couldn't care less what all of mankind does or doesn't eat...

I've chosen not to eat meat, not for evolutionary reasons but simply because I no longer wish to eat meat. And, though it may irk some, it does make me feel physically better not to eat it.

Evolution also gave us hair in our armpits that I regularly shave off, same as the hair on my legs.
Do I also risk the evolutionary future of mankind for my personal belief that I prefer to not be hairy?

smash

Shenshen wrote: »

I've chosen not to eat meat, not for evolutionary reasons but simply because I no longer wish to eat meat. And, though it may irk some, it does make me feel physically better not to eat it.

Admit it, you go weak at the knees when you smell bacon don't you!

Shenshen

smash wrote: »

Admit it, you go weak at the knees when you smell bacon don't you!

Sorry... I've never been a major fan of bacon. Weird, I know.

What I do find myself missing sometimes (keep in mind, I'm from Germany originally) are the sauces that would be served with the meat. Especially Southern German sweet-sour sauce that would be served with beef (Sauerbraten). It's not possible to make that one without meat.

CreepingDeath

Shenshen wrote: »

All of mankind?
I'm sorry, I honestly couldn't care less what all of mankind does or doesn't eat...

But you criticised another poster for implying that "every single human" has the right to eat meat. So you did make a comment to that effect.

Shenshen wrote: »

And from that you derive a moral imperative for every single human being to eat meat?

Odd.

Shenshen wrote: »

I've chosen not to eat meat, not for evolutionary reasons but simply because I no longer wish to eat meat. And, though it may irk some, it does make me feel physically better not to eat it.

I think you're taking it too personally.
The vegetarians are more vocal in criticising meat-eaters in the media
because there's a larger environmental cost to raising livestock.

smash

Shenshen, do you eat fish?

awec

I wonder how much of this "I feel better after giving up meat" is a placebo effect?

Shenshen

CreepingDeath wrote: »

But you criticised another poster for implying that "every single human" has the right to eat meat. So you did make a comment to that effect.

I didn't.
I pointed out that mankind's historical consumption of meat is no reason to demand that all humans alive today eat meat as well.
I've never questioned anyone's rights to eat what they please.
As far as I'm concerned, people should have the right to eat other people if there is informed consent.
Just so long as I'm not forced to do likewise.

I think you're taking it too personally.
The vegetarians are more vocal in criticising meat-eaters in the media
because there's a larger environmental cost to raising livestock.

Yes, some vegetarians out there are zealous enough to make me cringe.

However, I find that the vast majority of vegetarians are simply people who have made a choice concerning their diet and don't care about what other people eat.
Usually, they're happy enough to talk to people when asked, and explain what they eat and why, but I've yet to meet one in real life who would dream of starting a conversation about it with anyone.

Shenshen

smash wrote: »

Shenshen, do you eat fish?

No, why?

smash

Shenshen wrote: »

No, why?

I was just wondering. Some Vegetarians eat fish don't they?

I couldn't imagine a diet without meat or fish. I'd find the meals so boring and bland.

Shenshen

awec wrote: »

I wonder how much of this "I feel better after giving up meat" is a placebo effect?

Honest answer, I don't know.

I know I feel effects, but I'm not part of a study of any sort, and while I have sought medical advise on my migraines before, the doctors I consulted seemed to approach it very much on a trial and error basis (try this for 4 weeks, if it doesn't work we'll try that).

I also do not believe that a vegetarian diet is per se the healthier one.
Most studies I've seen so far found a correlation between better health and vegetarianism, but not necessarily a causation.
Many vegetarians tend to eat more healthily than the average omnivore, so the effect of not eating meat are blurred by the effect of the generally healthier food that is being consumed.
They also tend to be slimmer (not in my case, but statistically), but again this is not necessarily because they don't eat meat. It's more likely because they do watch what they eat more than the average person would.

So the effects I'm feeling may well be a placebo. It could well be that since I stopped eating meat, I'm eating other food instead that is boosting my health.
It could also be down to entirely unrelated lifestyle changes I may have made (I'm not consciously aware of any, but the possibility is there).

To me, it doesn't really matter. "Wer heilt, hat recht", "He who heals is in the right".
I wouldn't go around advising people to cut the meat out of their diet and point to my own perceived health improvements, that would make me a quack and a charlatan.
But when asked, I will reply honestly, and honestly, I have felt a lot better since dropping meat from my diet.

Sorry about the lengthy post...

bronte

http://i.imgur.com/1PPEk.png

ToddyDoody

I'm on the vegetarian Atkins myself

Shenshen

smash wrote: »

I was just wondering. Some Vegetarians eat fish don't they?

I couldn't imagine a diet without meat or fish. I'd find the meals so boring and bland.

I think the technical terms for them would be "Pescetarian".
It's a little nit-picking, I know, but some vegetarians get annoyed because when people who will eat fish call themselves vegetarians, actual vegetarians sometimes end up being offered fish and getting confused or even angry reactions when they point out they don't eat fish, either.

As for the meals, I honestly cannot complain. I don't want to brag, but a lot of omnivore friends of mine love coming over to my place if I promise to cook.
But then, as I said, I love cooking and when I turned vegetarian I regarded it as a challenge to change my cooking to non-meat dishes that are just as tasty.
I found I had to drop a lot of dishes I would cook previously entirely, you cannot just leave out meat in a meat-centred dish and expect it to work.
So I started digging around and found lots and lots of new dishes to make, dishes that were conceived without meat and therefore don't lack it.

I make some mean cannelloni with courgettes and mushrooms, I love making curries and dahls, I'm a big fan of hotpots, pies and stews...
There's lots and lots of dishes out there that work so well, adding meat would actually make them less tasty.
But yes, taking a normal dish and just removing the meat is not going to work very well.

Tar.Aldarion

smash wrote: »

I was just wondering. Some Vegetarians eat fish don't they?

I couldn't imagine a diet without meat or fish. I'd find the meals so boring and bland.

Everybody says that because they don't know what they would eat without meat. They just picture the same meals without the meat. There are probably thousands of foods you haven't tried. Things that make meat taste best to me are the things added anyway. we (or should I say my gf) cooks veggie food and gives it to relatives, all they do is note how they couldn't tell some of the things aren't m,eat without being told and when it's not fake meat can they have some more/take it home with them. At the weekend we had our own veggie food cooked for a family meal, everybody there had to try what we had (massaman curry) and so on. We are just used to people going, jaysus what would we eat and then loving what we eat. Even the fake burgers/lasagnes.

CreepingDeath

Shenshen wrote: »

I didn't.
I pointed out that mankind's historical consumption of meat is no reason to demand that all humans alive today eat meat as well.
I've never questioned anyone's rights to eat what they please.
As far as I'm concerned, people should have the right to eat other people if there is informed consent.
Just so long as I'm not forced to do likewise.

What's this about someone "demanding all humans alive eat meat" and you being forced to eat something?

I've no idea where you get that notion from, and I can usually see other peoples perspectives.

Nobody is forced to eat meat, and it would be a luxury in many third world countries.

There may be mild cultural peer pressure at most here in Ireland,
no more than that.

GTDolanator

Never mind the veggies,its those vegan **** ye wanna watch out for.There up to something!

CruelCoin

Shenshen wrote: »

Sorry... I've never been a major fan of bacon. Weird, I know.

:eek:

Get Out !!

Popinjay

Shenshen wrote: »

Many vegetarians tend to eat more healthily than the average omnivore, so the effect of not eating meat are blurred by the effect of the generally healthier food that is being consumed.
They also tend to be slimmer (not in my case, but statistically), but again this is not necessarily because they don't eat meat. It's more likely because they do watch what they eat more than the average person would.

I'm an omnivore and always have been, but I'e had a fair amount of vegetarian meals in myself and sometimes even on purpose.

I always thought it was more a case of this to be honest.

If a vegetarian is in any way serious about it and not just being a snotty 15 year old trying to 'find themselves' or what have you (so they'll just have chips every time but skip the nuggets), then they have to pay more attention to what the put in their bellies than your average omnivore pays. This by it's very nature will make them healthier.

If I paid more attention to what I was eating I'd be healthier too. I pay a bit of attention so I'm not as bad as some family memebrs who won't eat something that's not a burger but I'm far from putting as much thought into my meals as my veggie and vegan friends.

--Kaiser--

Popinjay wrote: »

If a vegetarian is in any way serious about it and not just being a snotty 15 year old trying to 'find themselves' or what have you (so they'll just have chips every time but skip the nuggets), then they have to pay more attention to what the put in their bellies than your average omnivore pays. This by it's very nature will make them healthier.

This is why there is sometimes a correlation seen between vegetarian diets and healthiness. That and the fact that a vegetarian diet is generally a luxury for wealthy westerners who have a wide variety of food at the fingertips.

(Yes, I am aware that a significant proportion of Indians are vegetarians, fittingly enough, this is for religious reasons)

speedboatchase

Has anyone ever met someone who is dating a vegetarian but who has not been forced into vegetarianism by them? Not me.

Shenshen

speedboatchase wrote: »

Has anyone ever met someone who is dating a vegetarian but who has not been forced into vegetarianism by them? Not me.

I work with two, one male one female, who are vegetarians, and their spouses are omnivores.
One's been married 3 years, the other around 20 or so.