why are there no J D Wetherspoon pubs in ROI?

Zebra3

Hopefully it's the PH and ATG groups that keep expanding instead of Wetherspoon's opening up here.

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

NOT so... As I've already said, they were supposed to coming to Ireland but they pulled out when the economy fell:



http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/pubs-still-a-big-draw-for-buyers-187159.html

PRIOR to that:


http://www.independent.ie/business/wetherspoons-eyeing-up-south-370054.html

That article was in 2004 when the economy was full steam ahead! The decision not to enter into Ireland was to do with the fact that they were not able to get a discount on beer. The main business model that they use in the UK.

Biggins

joeguevara wrote: »

That article was in 2004 when the economy was full steam ahead! The decision not to enter into Ireland was to do with the fact that they were not able to get a discount on beer. The main business model that they use in the UK.

The entertainment industry began to suffer greatly from 2000 onwards.
I know, I was involved deeply in it, had vested financial interests in it and saw the effects also elsewhere at the time with businesses and friends.

For example:

...Now pubs are closing at a rate of one every two days – more than 1,100 since 2005

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0218/1224311962363.html

Thanks to anti-smoking legislation, changing habits and the economic downturn, the country’s traditional gathering places have seen better days: since 2001...

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/04/28/the-sad-decline-of-the-irish-pub/

Decline in the Number of Pubs

Information from the Revenue Commissioners indicates that the number of pub licences on issue reduced by 1,000 between 2002 and 2008, from a total of 9,896 to 8,867, a drop of 10 per cent.

http://www.drinksindustryireland.ie/article.aspx?id=1630


The economy in general then fell later from 2007 onwards.

It was well known at the time, why JD Wetherspoon's decided to pull out.

Biggins

stimpson wrote: »

Where? They said they couldn't secure enough suitable premises ie. because the economy was booming. A cut price operation like Witherspoons would make a killing in recession Dublin.

3rd September 2003
JD Wetherspoons Pulls Out of Dublin
UK Pub Chain JD Wetherspoon has decided to defer it's decision to locate in Dublin for the forseeable future. As a result its property at 121-122 Capel Street will be up for auction on 2 October

http://www.dublinpubscene.com/thepubs/pubnews_sep2003.html

joeguevara

I was a manger of a jdwether spoons bar in camber well. Being Irish I was ear marked to take over a location in Dublin. I was told by the directors that the reason they made a strategic decision not to enter Ireland was due to the discount.

Your quote from the revenue is from 2001 to-2008. You have no breakdown from 2001-2003. I am telling you what the directors and area managers from wether spoons told me directly.

Biggins

joeguevara wrote: »

I was a manger of a jdwether spoons bar in camber well. Being Irish I was ear marked to take over a location in Dublin. I was told by the directors that the reason they made a strategic decision not to enter Ireland was due to the discount.

Your quote from the revenue is from 2001 to-2008. You have no breakdown from 2001-2003. I am telling you what the directors and area managers from wether spoons told me directly.

Fair enough - you have what someone told you across the water - I have what I was told by business friends here in Ireland who was in the same business as I, the Irish entertainment industry.

We can agree to differ.

(They had indeed already taken over a property in Dublin, did it up to an extent - then sold it off by the way after looking at economic forecasts)

RoundyMooney

The first two articles date from 2010 and 2012, so are irrelevant to your attempts to back up your earlier claim that Wetherspoon decided against entering the Irish market, due to the downturn.

From what I've heard from people in the trade, on both sides of the water, joeguevara's comment seems right on the money.

Biggins wrote:

I know, I was involved deeply in it, had vested financial interests in it...

If by that you mean, as you've previously told us, that you work(ed) as a part time barman, why not just say so?

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

Fair enough - you have what someone told you across the water - I have what I was told by business friends here in Ireland who was in the same business as I, the Irish entertainment industry.

We can agree to differ.

But the question was why jd wether spoons didn't open in Ireland. I answered what the directors of jd wether spoons told me.

As an aside I opened a bar in 2003 based on jd wether spoons business model. Pints were €2.80 to €3.00. First bar in Ireland to do it. Business was unbelievable until I sold the bar in 2005. The new owner is now in Nama!

RoundyMooney

joeguevara wrote: »

The new owner is now in Nama!

A lot of good bars took a major hammering because their owners used them as collateral. Quite a few examples in Cork, too!

Actually, just in regard to your former bar-did you have any hassle from the vintners regarding your discounted pricing?

I'd love to see Irish drinkers develop a decent taste for craft beer and stuff outside the mainstream. We're invariably happy to drink mass produced piss. The likes of the Franciscan Well make a good living out of it, and I don't see why others can't also.

Micro-breweries are very popular in other countries, but we never "got" it here.

Biggins

joeguevara wrote: »

But the question was why jd wether spoons didn't open in Ireland. I answered what the directors of jd wether spoons told me.

As an aside I opened a bar in 2003 based on jd wether spoons business model. Pints were €2.80 to €3.00. First bar in Ireland to do it. Business was unbelievable until I sold the bar in 2005. The new owner is now in Nama!

Its history now their departure either way, maybe the truth lies in between both factors also.
I suspect so.

What is possibly further debatable is if Wetherspoons got establish, could they have helped save the bar industry or speeded it general decline?

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

Its history now their departure either way, maybe the truth lies in between both factors also.
I suspect so.

What is possibly further debatable is if Wetherspoons got establish, could they have helped save the bar industry or speeded it general decline?

Wether spoons attracts people who like cheap and cheerful. It is a policy of wether spoons that music, TVs and pool tables are not allowed. The Irish uk drinking culture is vastly different. I think wether spoons would have had a place in Ireland but would not have an effect on most bars around it.

Btw the truth doesn't lie in between both factors!

Biggins

joeguevara wrote: »

Wether spoons attracts people who like cheap and cheerful. It is a policy of wether spoons that music, TVs and pool tables are not allowed. The Irish uk drinking culture is vastly different. I think wether spoons would have had a place in Ireland but would not have an effect on most bars around it.

Btw the truth doesn't lie in between both factors!

Well the fact is that the pub business was in decline from 2000 onwards for sure.
The heads of Wetherspoons (its one word) would not have failed to take note of this and build its factors into their future forecasts.
To do anything less would have been completely stupid - and they were no overall fools.
I remember at the time being informed by reliable people who I worked along side that the whole situation had been financially re-assessed as to potential future profit margins given the clear incoming decline and thus the non-opening alone of the property they purchased in Dublin and is on record of having to be eventually sold (at a total loss including overall investment and time) for a couple of million.

You think the truth don't lie between factors? Thats your right.
But the heads of Wetherspoons at the time wouldn't have been so stupid to not take ALL factors into account prior to further withdrawal from the Irish market.
To espouse that they wouldn't have taken economic factors into account would be completely daft.

Kudos for getting out in 2005 - you were lucky to make money that long.
Many were not so fortunate.

I should add that I was lucky also - I got out in 2001 from one aspect of the entertainment industry in Ireland while continuing to work in other related areas.
The alcohol aspect of the business was cut-throat after that onwards - and remains so.

Chain_reaction

MadsL wrote: »

Which Dublin pubs apart from the Porterhouse as it IS a brewery, have those brews on tap?

All in the same general area....

Mulligans grocer, The Thomas House has brew dog, Frank Ryans in Smithfield have Galway hooker on tap.... The cobble stone has a few micro brewery beers too.

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

Well the fact is that the pub business was in decline from 2000 onwards for sure.
The heads of Wetherspoons (its one word) would not have failed to take note of this and build its factors into their future forecasts.
To do anything less would have been completely stupid - and they were no overall fools.
I remember at the time being informed by reliable people who I worked along side that the whole situation had been financially re-assessed as to potential future profit margins given the clear incoming decline and thus the non-opening alone of the property they purchased in Dublin and is on record of having to be eventually sold (at a total loss including overall investment and time) for a couple of million.

You think the truth don't lie between factors? Thats your right.
But the heads of Wetherspoons at the time wouldn't have been so stupid to not take ALL factors into account prior to further withdrawal from the Irish market.
To espouse that they wouldn't have taken economic factors into account would be completely daft.

Kudos for getting out in 2005 - you were lucky to make money that long.
Many were not so fortunate.

I should add that I was lucky also - I got out in 2001 from one aspect of the entertainment industry in Ireland while continuing to work in other related areas.
The alcohol aspect of the business was cut-throat after that onwards - and remains so.

The whole ethos of the Wetherspoons (i know its one word but auto correct on my ipad made it two, but thanks for the spelling update)business is to buck economic trends. They would have seen it as a positive that there was an economic downturn as that is what their business is based on! The whole reason that it didn't make economic sense was that the price of alcohol couldn't be negotiated on. That was what the directors presented at their board meeting and was the evidence presented to us who were privy to the information.

Biggins

joeguevara wrote: »

...that was what the directors presented at their board meeting and was the evidence presented to us who were privy to the information.

Forgive me for inquiring but how were you privy to English board discussions when in 2003 you were already supposedly established back in Ireland with your own property, working solely based on your own idea back home, of their venture model?

I opened a bar in 2003 based on jd wether spoons business model. Pints were €2.80 to €3.00. First bar in Ireland to do it.

I was meanwhile invested in 111 Bradshawgate, Bolton and a property then also invested in by St James (Guinness by its corporate English name there also, for those that are unaware). The property was one of a franchise called "Durty Nellys".
(Hired manager was a Josh Lee)

It was through this previously and Irish interests back home (that I travelled back and forth to) that I was continuously made aware of what was going on in the business.

RoundyMooney

Wetherspoon's were obviously a farsighted bunch of lads, it's a pity they couldn't have told the Financial Regulator, the banks, and tens of thousands of purchasers and investors that there was going to be a financial crisis about four years later.

Biggins

It appears even by the sale of their property in 2003 that they were wise (lucky also?) indeed.
After that they would have no interest in the financial affair of our economy once a decision was made previously in future forecasts.

awec

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Wetherspoon's were obviously a farsighted bunch of lads, it's a pity they couldn't have told the Financial Regulator, the banks, and tens of thousands of purchasers and investors that there was going to be a financial crisis about four years later.

Lets be honest here, did people buying houses etc really think that prices were going to go rise forever?

The arse was always going to fall out of it. I think most people knew that it wasn't that far off, but they kidded themselves in the hope of making a quick few quid.

mikemac1

There's a pub in Inchicore Dublin which sells pints for 3 euro

Roughest pub in the area by far and everyone else avoids it

It's the cheapest but it's not the busiest

tommyombomb

I liked the pub grub when I was in Manchester. I think the curry is pretty good. Also vodka and red bull is so cheap.

LivelineDipso

WesternZulu wrote: »

Thank god there isn't!

They've the same identical soulless pubs serving crap beer and food all over the UK.

I think they are great!

No TV and better range of booze that the average Irish pub.

Biggins

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I think they are great!

No TV and better range of booze that the average Irish pub.

There was debate at the time though by some as to the quality of some of their stuff.
Sometimes good range but quality? Also debatable.

yermandan

Zaph wrote: »

My limited experience of them suggests that they are simply large soulless rooms for drinking in, a opposed to proper pubs. If I wanted a large soulless room to drink in I could just bring a six pack to the staff canteen instead.

Boards has a canteen? *subscribes immediately

brummytom

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I think they are great!

No TV and better range of booze that the average Irish pub.

Any Wetherspoons I've been in (I'm a student, so that's a few!) have had TVs.

I still like them though. As long as the TVs aren't getting in the way, and there's no blaring music, and the drink's cheap, I don't see anything to complain about.

RoundyMooney

awec wrote: »

Lets be honest here, did people buying houses etc really think that prices were going to go rise forever?

The arse was always going to fall out of it. I think most people knew that it wasn't that far off, but they kidded themselves in the hope of making a quick few quid.

Sadly, a lot of people did-whether they acted on bad advice, or hoped for a soft landing.

Anyway, it's a moot point in this case, as Wetherspoon didn't cite it as a reason at the time, and in any case, their discount model would actually be a better fit in recessionary times.

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

Forgive me for inquiring but how were you privy to English board discussions when in 2003 you were already supposedly established back in Ireland with your own property, working solely based on your own idea back home, of their venture model?



I was meanwhile invested in 111 Bradshawgate, Bolton and a property then also invested in by St James (Guinness by its corporate English name there also, for those that are unaware). The property was one of a franchise called "Durty Nellys".
(Hired manager was a Josh Lee)

It was through this previously and Irish interests back home (that I travelled back and forth to) that I was continuously made aware of what was going on in the business.

The decision to pull out was in 2003. I opened a bar in 2003 when they decided not to open in Ireland. I was involved through out as I was ear,armed to manage an Irish proper56. Best thing that ever happened. Used their business model built up a good business and sold it in 2005 (albeit not as a bar but as an back entrance to another property which was to be used as a tesco which never materialised). Any other questions on my credentials?

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

There was debate at the time though by some as to the quality of some of their stuff.
Sometimes good range but quality? Also debatable.

Their quality is unquestionable from an alcohol point of view. Heard all about the urban myths of slops being reused or kegs being bought out of date. All untrue. All bought from the same brewery's as everyone else but with bigger buying power got a bigger discount. Also very strict on spillages, breakages etc. with people losing bonuses if they were out of line!

Biggins

joeguevara wrote: »

The decision to pull out was in 2003. I opened a bar in 2003 when they decided not to open in Ireland. I was involved through out as I was ear,armed to manage an Irish proper56. Best thing that ever happened. Used their business model built up a good business and sold it in 2005 (albeit not as a bar but as an back entrance to another property which was to be used as a tesco which never materialised). Any other questions on my credentials?

None whatsoever.
I'm sure that as you were operating in the same area, you would know then that the later downturn in the economy generally, would have no effect on previous decisions made by 2003.
Anything after that would be of no relevance whatsoever between Wetherspoons in regards to later general economic downturns.
They had for (debatable reasons it seems) cleared off by then.

Guinness still has the market sown up well to a good extent in Ireland.

collie0708

Ive been to quite a few wetherspoons in the uk and the all had tellys and where great value for money. Dont get why people seem to think they are rough our attract a dodgy clientele in my times there never noticed this or maybe I just lucky...

joeguevara

Biggins wrote: »

None whatsoever.
I'm sure that as you were operating in the same area, you would know then that the later downturn in the economy generally, would have no effect on previous decisions made by 2003.
Anything after that would be of no relevance whatsoever between Wetherspoons in regards to later general economic downturns.
They had for (debatable reasons it seems) cleared off by then.

Guinness still has the market sown up well to a good extent in Ireland.

Fair enough. I'll accept that. Diageo control the pub industry in Ireland. Wether spoons don't like being held to ransom by anybody!