New campaign 'Don't be that guy' - how effective will it really be?

Roadtrippin

runawaybishop wrote: »

That is an excuse though

"I had drink taken and she didnt refuse me before she passed out" <-- rape. No two ways about it. Sometimes stuff really is black and white.

Yes, that much is clear and probably to most people. And it is very black and white in a situation like that.
But there are times when it isnt black and white and only education and campaigns will make people realise what the right thing to do is in those cases.
Like earlier posters pointed out, a much more likely scenario than the alleyway rapist type is that a girl is at a party, meets a guy, has a couple too many... Guy and his friends think she was interested in more because she was flirting, guy takes girl home (and at this stage she is still not fully locked), the 'drunkenness' hits the girl while making out at the guy's place, guy is too pissed to realise that she isn't fully there anymore and doesn't necessarily want to go any further and there we have it... a situation where the guy should have stopped but didn't for a number of reasons.
Now, while the majority of guys in that situation would stop when they are sober, some in a drunken state, may not... Maybe they are too stupid, drunk, young, unaware... I am not making excuses for a guy in that situation. In any case it is rape.
But sometimes it isn't as black and white when drink is involved, particularly on both sides. That's when you have cases when girls don't report it because they feel ashamed or are unsure what happened even though deep down they know. That's when you have cases where the guy in retrospect regrets going that one step too far but can't take it back because he didn't stop and think about what he was doing.
And for those cases this campaign helps to raise awareness.

shoos

runawaybishop wrote: »

Who could possibly think that isn't rape? Like, really and truly believe it was grand?

You would be surprised!!!

Massive trigger warning about to follow...........


I've heard stories from friends at parties where young lads have basically lifted the drunkest girl in the house into the bathroom, and only when someone spotted them and were like "what the F are you doing?", they stopped and brought her back.

I've seen another guy at a party hunt the room and set their sights on the drunkest girl there, even though they can barely speak will make sure they're sat right next to them. The guy was pretty sober himself by the way. I'll be keeping my eye on them and when I see a hand slide onto her thigh I've gone right over and told him to F off away from her.

When I was sitting in class one day, a group of the guys were talking about this really drunk/almost passed out woman they found in a club, carried her to a taxi to get her home, when one of their mates told them to give him a minute with her first, in which he proceeded to sexually assault her. All the guys laughing about it in my class by the way, they were saying "it was so F'ed up" and things like that, but none of them thought to step in and stop it.

God, another one just came to me. Drunk Irish girl passed out in bathroom of club in another country. My friend lifted her out of the bathroom, brought her to the bouncers and said he'd just found her passed out and what should he do. Bouncers told him, "well, since you found her, you can go first. We'll go after. There's a room back here".

These are just my own personal tales, I'd imagine if you were to ask around you'd find many, many more.

Roadtrippin

shoos wrote: »

You would be surprised!!!
I've heard stories from friends at parties where young lads have basically lifted the drunkest girl in the house into the bathroom, and only when someone spotted them and were like "what the F are you doing?", they stopped and brought her back.

I've seen another guy at a party hunt the room and set their sights on the drunkest girl there, even though they can barely speak will make sure they're sat right next to them. The guy was pretty sober himself by the way. I'll be keeping my eye on them and when I see a hand slide onto her thigh I've gone right over and told him to F off away from her.

When I was sitting in class one day, a group of the guys were talking about this really drunk/almost passed out woman they found in a club, carried her to a taxi to get her home, when one of their mates told them to give him a minute with her first, in which he proceeded to sexually assault her. All the guys laughing about it in my class by the way, they were saying "it was so F'ed up" and things like that, but none of them thought to step in and stop it.

God, another one just came to me. Drunk Irish girl passed out in bathroom of club in another country. My friend lifted her out of the bathroom, brought her to the bouncers and said he'd just found her passed out and what should he do. Bouncers told him, "well, since you found her, you can go first. We'll go after. There's a room back here".

See, these are exactly the type of stories that need to be told. This campaign is getting people talking and that is good.

Stories like that make me sick to the stomache though but a lot of girls will know at least one or two like that where a drunk girl was taken advantage of or where they spotted a perfectly sober guy consciously going for the drunkest girl at the bar hoping to score even if she hardly could string a sentence together. It is very common. And all those guys that think it's not... just talk to some girls about it. You'd be surprised how the lines get blurred when there's drink involved and how many not so black and white cases there are out there!

shoos

Roadtrippin wrote: »

It is very common. And all those guys that think it's not... just talk to some girls about it. You'd be surprised how the lines get blurred when there's drink involved and how many not so black and white cases there are out there!

They really would be surprised!

I was having a casual coffee with a male friend one day and I've no idea how the topic came up, but he basically goes to me -

"This whole rape/sexual assault thing you hear girls banging on about. I mean it doesn't really happen does it, like half the girls you hear talking about it are ugly as F, as if anyone would sexually assault them".

I actually don't know how I didn't blow my lid!!!

Firstly, had to inform him that rape/sexual assault isn't about sexual attraction, it's about power.

Secondly, had to inform him it does indeed happen, and what he just said would be incredibly hurtful to many women, some of whom he knows.

He actually didn't believe me, thought I was being dramatic. He was like "nooooo it doesn't, WHO has that happened to" which I then listed off a number of examples (obviously keeping everything vague and anonymous) like those I did in my last post, along with my own personal experiences, along with stories I've heard through friends of friends.

He was literally left speechless, I'm not even sure if he fully believed me with the amount of stories I was able to list off.

The fact I had to basically teach a 23 year old man that rape and sexual assualt is very much a real thing that is happening around him, is RIDICULOUS.

Think it all goes back to the idea that rape is only rape if it's like that scene from the French movie Irreversible.

Gauss

Stheno wrote: »

This happened to me in one company I worked in, while there was no touching, all of the above applied. I ended up on sick leave with stress related physical illnesses and being sent to the company doctor.

Then one day I found a female colleague crying in the toilets, and for the first time, found out someone else felt like I did. We were lucky as we spent ages trying to figure out if the relevant management would listen to us, but our boss who was the cause of it, ended up on long term sick leave with some nasty infection.

After a month of our teams performing far better etc, we got called in to our acting manager and asked why. We then ended up in front of our department head, who started an investigation and when the "abuser" came back from sick leave he was demoted and never managed anyone again.



I think a lot of men don't realise that without consent, having sex with someone is rape. Having sex with a women who is comatose from drink, and mumbling away, or thinking they want it as you are paralytic, is not consent.

It's not flippant or finger wagging to say "Make sure the person you think wants to have sex with you, actually does"

Not doing so could end up ruining not only the life of the victim, but that of the man whom no one considered a potential rapist, but who became one in a moment of poor judgement.

Knowing that someone wants to have sex with you isn't enough if they are so drunk they can't speak. Still wrong in my book.

who_me

(Guy's opinion here) I'd actually question the advert's effectiveness.

There are men who would never abuse women in this way and who drink responsibly; this group already has got the message.
There are men who'd never intentionally abuse women, but on occasions drink far too much (or take drugs); this group are likely to think they would never be the perpetrator, unless/until it's too late. They're more likely to ignore or get annoyed by the adverts.
Then, there are those men who very deliberately prey on drunk women; they're not that likely to heed an advert like this, are they?

Basically guys would take the advert in one of two ways: "It's not aimed at me, I'd never do that, so I'll ignore it". Or "It's aimed at me. I find it very offensive they suggest I'd do that". I can't picture anyone saying "Ok, good point. I'll bear that in mind on the next night out".

shoos

who_me wrote: »

(Guy's opinion here) I'd actually question the advert's effectiveness.

There are men who would never abuse women in this way and who drink responsibly; this group already has got the message.
There are men who'd never intentionally abuse women, but on occasions drink far too much (or take drugs); this group are likely to think they would never be the perpetrator, unless/until it's too late. They're more likely to ignore or get annoyed by the adverts.
Then, there are those men who very deliberately prey on drunk women; they're not that likely to heed an advert like this, are they?

Basically guys would take the advert in one of two ways: "It's not aimed at me, I'd never do that, so I'll ignore it". Or "It's aimed at me. I find it very offensive they suggest I'd do that". I can't picture anyone saying "Ok, good point. I'll bear that in mind on the next night out".

Can I ask your opinion on what you think would make a good ad campaign, from a male's perspective? And I don't at all mean that in a "well, if you know it all, what would YOU do?!" aggressive way, haha

Genuinely would be interested to hear from a male point of view what kind of campaign they think would engage these guys.

What about something like the UK ad someone posted earlier in the thread where the guy sees himself through the glass wall, screaming at himself to stop?

GalwayGuy2

Can I ask your opinion on what you think would make a good ad campaign, from a male's perspective? And I don't at all mean that in a "well, if you know it all, what would YOU do?!" aggressive way, haha

Begin with the usual "lad banter", have one or two moments where someone says something that would make you go "wait a second...that's a bit off", then show a more sober member of the group break off and escort an incredibly drunk women to the bathroom. Then show a quick scene in the bathroom where the man is forcing himself (kissing) onto the unconscious woman and cut back to the "lads" laughing.

The sad fact is that the rapist in these occurrences are seen as friends to a group of guys, and it's quite hard to think of him raping a woman. It should be shown how predatory and disgusting that is.

I don't think the mentioned at the begining ad is a bad idea, but I don't believe that a man won't realize a woman is unwilling/not lucid/or unconscious no matter how drunk he is. How wouldn't you notice a woman not moving or reciprocating in any way? Although I do think some men use that as an excuse, but they're rapists through and through.

Gauss

shoos wrote: »

Can I ask your opinion on what you think would make a good ad campaign, from a male's perspective? And I don't at all mean that in a "well, if you know it all, what would YOU do?!" aggressive way, haha

Genuinely would be interested to hear from a male point of view what kind of campaign they think would engage these guys.

What about something like the UK ad someone posted earlier in the thread where the guy sees himself through the glass wall, screaming at himself to stop?

Not sure any ad would make a difference.

Roadtrippin

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Begin with the usual "lad banter", have one or two moments where someone says something that would make you go "wait a second...that's a bit off", then show a more sober member of the group break off and escort an incredibly drunk women to the bathroom. Then show a quick scene in the bathroom where the man is forcing himself (kissing) onto the unconscious woman and cut back to the "lads" laughing.

The sad fact is that the rapist in these occurrences are seen as friends to a group of guys, and it's quite hard to think of him raping a woman. It should be shown how predatory and disgusting that is.

Good idea for a campaign. I think it hits the nail on the head in the sense that a lot guys can't spot someone that acts predatory when it's one of their friends. They wouldn't believe their friend would be capable of something like being to pushy when a woman says no.
At the end of the day it comes down to guys telling one of their friends to cut it out when they see their friend go overboard. Imagine how many times a potentially dangerous situation could be diffused if someone just stepped in.
If you see one of your mates being that tiny bit too insisting, say something. Don't shrug it off and laugh. Next time your friend may not just insist...

HHobo

Das Kitty wrote: »

This.

What you're really saying when you advise girls on how not to get raped is, "Make sure he rapes the other girl and not you."

By that logic, having locks on your doors is an invitation to criminals to rob your neighbour instead.

There is nothing at all wrong with educating people about the steps they can take to reduce the level of risk they take. It is not tantamount to making sure someone else is a victim instead.

The problem with telling criminals not to do bad things is that they usually won't listen.
It can't hurt to try to raise awareness though, especially if the problem is one of young men stupid enough to have to be told.

shoos

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Good idea for a campaign. I think it hits the nail on the head in the sense that a lot guys can't spot someone that acts predatory when it's one of their friends. They wouldn't believe their friend would be capable of something like being to pushy when a woman says no.
At the end of the day it comes down to guys telling one of their friends to cut it out when they see their friend go overboard. Imagine how many times a potentially dangerous situation could be diffused if someone just stepped in.
If you see one of your mates being that tiny bit too insisting, say something. Don't shrug it off and laugh. Next time your friend may not just insist...

Yeah I think that's very true, I think only when it becomes more socially acceptable for a guy to speak up, will they actually speak up.

Reminds me of the Steubenville rape video, I didn't watch the whole thing (physically couldn't do it) but from what I've read there were guys in that video saying things like "it's not funny, it's not cool, that girl was raped, how would you feel if that was your sister"..... But none of them called the police, and none of them actually did a single thing to stop it or help her.

Roadtrippin

shoos wrote: »

Reminds me of the Steubenville rape video, I didn't watch the whole thing (physically couldn't do it) but from what I've read there were guys in that video saying things like "it's not funny, it's not cool, that girl was raped, how would you feel if that was your sister"...

That was such a horrific case! I couldn't watch more than the start of the video it made me so upset!
I definitely think being a bystander and not doing anything even though you know something wrong is happening is nearly just as bad as the actual assault.

captainpants23

The underlying assumption of this ad campaign is that ALL men are potential rapists or sex offenders. I find that deeply offensive, as a male. Also, the idea that a genuine sexual predator is going to change his behaviour because of a misandrist advertising campaign seems hopelessly naive.

nokia69

shoos wrote: »

You would be surprised!!!

Massive trigger warning about to follow...........


I've heard stories from friends at parties where young lads have basically lifted the drunkest girl in the house into the bathroom, and only when someone spotted them and were like "what the F are you doing?", they stopped and brought her back.

I've seen another guy at a party hunt the room and set their sights on the drunkest girl there, even though they can barely speak will make sure they're sat right next to them. The guy was pretty sober himself by the way. I'll be keeping my eye on them and when I see a hand slide onto her thigh I've gone right over and told him to F off away from her.

When I was sitting in class one day, a group of the guys were talking about this really drunk/almost passed out woman they found in a club, carried her to a taxi to get her home, when one of their mates told them to give him a minute with her first, in which he proceeded to sexually assault her. All the guys laughing about it in my class by the way, they were saying "it was so F'ed up" and things like that, but none of them thought to step in and stop it.

God, another one just came to me. Drunk Irish girl passed out in bathroom of club in another country. My friend lifted her out of the bathroom, brought her to the bouncers and said he'd just found her passed out and what should he do. Bouncers told him, "well, since you found her, you can go first. We'll go after. There's a room back here".

These are just my own personal tales, I'd imagine if you were to ask around you'd find many, many more.

I have seen women do the very same

almost every man I know has woke up with a sore head next to someone he would never go near when sober

Roadtrippin

nokia69 wrote: »

I have seen women do the very same

almost every man I know has woke up with a sore head next to someone he would never go near when sober

There is a difference between going home with someone and realising the next day you didn't make the best call and then going home with someone and being taken advantage of...

Also, even if guys get with girls when they're drunk and later regret it, chances are that they're not going to be assaulted since most of the time they are stronger than the girl and can get away if they need to. The vulnerability on a guy's side is not the same as in a girl's case, at least most of the time.

shoos

nokia69 wrote: »

I have seen women do the very same

almost every man I know has woke up with a sore head next to someone he would never go near when sober

If you're talking about women also being capable of sexually offending, well... I never disputed that fact.

I don't understand the point of your post

GalwayGuy2

Also, even if guys get with girls when they're drunk and later regret it, chances are that they're not going to be assaulted since most of the time they are stronger than the girl and can get away if they need to.

Um, this shouldn't turn into a man versus woman thing, but isn't the whole point of it is that the women is so drunk (unconscious/barely lucid) that she can't consent, let alone resist. So, under those circumstances, if a woman chooses, a man can be raped (since I think a man's penis can be stimulated while unconscious/severely drunk) and a man's anus is an erogenous zone.
But, a a slightly drunk woman getting with a completely wasted (but gives consent) man is a mirror image of what some boardsies posters are using this as (which I could be wrong but I don't think that is the aim), so that is as much rape as it's mirror image.

I don't want to derail the tread so I'm not going to say anymore, but just food for thought.

FYI, I don't think the campaighn is misandric (even though some groups may use it who most definitely do have a misandric all men are potential rapists view).

Dolbert

captainpants23 wrote: »

The underlying assumption of this ad campaign is that ALL men are potential rapists or sex offenders. I find that deeply offensive, as a male. Also, the idea that a genuine sexual predator is going to change his behaviour because of a misandrist advertising campaign seems hopelessly naive.

Where on earth does it suggest that ALL men are potential rapists? The ad is aimed at the certain few guys who mightn't see their actions as rape. That's kinda the whole point.

Roadtrippin

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Um, this shouldn't turn into a man versus woman thing, but isn't the whole point of it is that the women is so drunk (unconscious/barely lucid) that she can't consent, let alone resist. So, under those circumstances, if a woman chooses, a man can be raped (since I think a man's penis can be stimulated while unconscious/severely drunk).
But, a a slightly drunk woman getting with a completely wasted (but gives consent) man is a mirror image of what some boardsies posters are using this as (which I could be wrong but I don't think that is the aim), so that is as much rape as it's mirror image.

I don't want to derail the tread so I'm not going to say anymore, but just food for thought.

FYI, I don't think the campaighn is misandric (even though some groups may use it who most definitely do have a misandric all men are potential rapists view).

Before this thread goes completely off topic, I'd just like to add, nobody is disputing that men can't get raped or be in a vulnerable position. And I also don't think that the campaign was trying to imply that all men are rapists. That's not what we're saying here...

nokia69

shoos wrote: »

If you're talking about women also being capable of sexually offending, well... I never disputed that fact.

I don't understand the point of your post

from your post you seem to think, that only men target drunk women

I'm only pointing out that it happens to men too

maybe I'm wrong to point this out, I don't want it to turn into a men V women war

shoos

nokia69 wrote: »

from your post you seem to think, that only men target drunk women

I'm only pointing out that it happens to men too

maybe I'm wrong to point this out, I don't want it to turn into a men V women war

No I really don't either, happens all too often in these discussions and really we're never going to get anywhere when its W vs M (even though we'd so win )

It wasn't that I thought it's only ever men targetting drunk women, I was just naming experiences I've seen and I happen to have never seen it the other way around. NOT TO SAY, that it doesn't happen. So I welcome your additions.

Dolbert

Links234 wrote: »

I'd love to see a discussion about this topic that doesn't come around to "what about teh menz!?"

.

captainpants23

Dolbert wrote: »

Where on earth does it suggest that ALL men are potential rapists? The ad is aimed at the certain few guys who mightn't see their actions as rape. That's kinda the whole point.

The phrase "Don't be that guy" is totally unqualified and catch-all.

April O Neill

captainpants23 wrote: »

The underlying assumption of this ad campaign is that ALL men are potential rapists or sex offenders. I find that deeply offensive, as a male. Also, the idea that a genuine sexual predator is going to change his behaviour because of a misandrist advertising campaign seems hopelessly naive.

Yeah, I have to agree, on both counts.

Someone earlier in the thread quoted a 10% reduction in sex crimes in Vancouver, supposedly based on this type of campaign. How would one even gauge that?

April O Neill

Links234 wrote: »

I'd love to see a discussion about this topic that doesn't come around to "what about teh menz!?"

I think in this instance, it's reasonable enough for "the menz" to be considered. If they weren't, it wouldn't be a fully-rounded discussion of the subject, IMO.

GalwayGuy2

Someone earlier in the thread quoted a 10% reduction in sex crimes in Vancouver, supposedly based on this type of campaign. How would one even gauge that?

I must admit I was confused about that as well. Isn't the big problem is that these rapes go unreported?

Scarinae

April O Neill wrote: »

Yeah, I have to agree, on both counts.

Someone earlier in the thread quoted a 10% reduction in sex crimes in Vancouver, supposedly based on this type of campaign. How would one even gauge that?

Here's an article in a Canadian newspaper that gives that figure, which is attributed to Deputy Chief Doug LePard from the Vancouver police department. Presumably he has access to official statistics. Perhaps it would be more correct to say it was a 10% reduction in sex crimes that were reported to police in Vancouver after this ad campaign, and the police department thinks there is a correlation.

captainpants23

April O Neill wrote: »

Yeah, I have to agree, on both counts.

Someone earlier in the thread quoted a 10% reduction in sex crimes in Vancouver, supposedly based on this type of campaign. How would one even gauge that?

Excellent question, April. The first problem with this statistic is : is this a reduction in reported sex crimes or a 10% reduction in reported and unreported sex crimes? Most people would accept that a huge number of sex crimes go unreported because victims feel intimidated or because they feel that making a report is futile due to the low probability of a prosecution and conviction of the perpetrator. The second problem with this statistic is: how could one prove that the ad campaign caused the reduction in sex crimes, rather than just being coincidental? Lots of other factors can cause a reduction in sex crimes e.g. better public lighting, better public transport at night, more police patrols etc. Correlation does not prove causation.

April O Neill

Scarinae wrote: »

Here's an article in a Canadian newspaper that gives that figure, which is attributed to Deputy Chief Doug LePard from the Vancouver police department. Presumably he has access to official statistics. Perhaps it would be more correct to say it was a 10% reduction in sex crimes that were reported to police in Vancouver after this ad campaign, and the police department thinks there is a correlation.

Thanks for that.

One thing that struck me about that article is that this was just one facet of the campaign. There was also advice on how women can make themselves less vulnerable according to the article. Wouldn't many on this thread see that as falling under the victim-blaming banner?

And as captainpants said, correlation is not causation.