New campaign 'Don't be that guy' - how effective will it really be?

Roadtrippin

I listened to a discussion on the Colm Hayes show earlier about an ad campaign warning against sexual assault entitled 'Don't be that guy'

https://www.facebook.com/2fmofficial

The difference to previous campaigns is that it's not addressing the victim this time but potential sex offenders...
How effective do you think this campaign will be? I personally think it's good that they are taking a different approach then always depicting the victim to be partially responsible when getting too drunk, dressing a certain way etc. I'm glad this will help to get people talking about the issue etc. but I do wonder how good this campaign will be in terms of deterring offenders??

Death and Taxes

Anything that raises awareness has to be a good thing, for far two long many sexual assaults have been excused as "just getting a little over excited" on the part of the perpetrator, or have been blamed directly or indirectly on the victim because of her dress, demeanour, or because she had a few drinks.

LoonyLovegood

I honestly think it'll help. It was launched by USI, and they're really pushing it (at least in my college). Talking to some lads I know, they didn't really think about it this way, in that just because she doesn't say anything doesn't mean a girl means yes. So hopefully it'll work.

Roadtrippin

CTYIgirl wrote: »

I honestly think it'll help. It was launched by USI, and they're really pushing it (at least in my college). Talking to some lads I know, they didn't really think about it this way, in that just because she doesn't say anything doesn't mean a girl means yes. So hopefully it'll work.

Yeah, that's the hope, I think. Get people discussing it and raise awareness. Some of the points they were making on the 2FM show earlier was that most guys wouldn't think that way about a girl lying on the couch drunk. They would do the decent thing and leave her be or bring her home. Those that think otherwise would probably not feel addressed by that campaign anyway because they have no respect for women...

I don't know how true that is. I reckon for some guys the minute drink is involved they don't always know the line. Like the campaign says, just because she didn't say no, doesn't mean she said yes!

eviltwin

It might make some guys think a little bit more about their choices which can only be a good thing. It might also help their victims realise they ARE victims and get the help and support they need.

clairefontaine

Hopefully it will teach both genders to drink more responsibly.

Lisha

Was listening to colm too he seemed a bit bemused that the assaulter was been the target if the ad campaign not the victim

Rape or sexual assault is always caused by the assaulter not the victim

I welcome the campaign I really hope young men modify their attitudes to women
It is not sex if she is passed out/asleep
An absence of no does not always mean yes

The sense of sexual entitlement as part ofa night out that some young men have is just mind boggling

I watched tallaghfornia lately and was so saddened at the lengths the girls would go to to get/keep a man

Yes sex can be a very enjoyable recreational activity but it should not be mandatory unless both parties are willing

Call me old fashioned, I don't care, but sex has been cheapened and lost all value

I really hope this campaign does help

mariaalice

I am a great believer in conscious raising around a lot of issues so yes it is a good idea.

Roadtrippin

clairefontaine wrote: »

Hopefully it will teach both genders to drink more responsibly.

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one to happen anytime soon... As in both genders a certain age tend to drink too much at some stage or another. Particularly in places where the campaign is launched, such as universities, colleges and ITs drink won't go away as a factor in rape cases, I think.

It is very important to make guys understand that drunk girls arent fair game if they cant consent!

clairefontaine

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one to happen anytime soon... Particularly in places where the campaign is launched, such as universities, colleges and ITs drink won't go away as a factor in rape cases, I think.

It is very important to make guys understand that drunk girls arent fair game if they cant consent!

Honestly, I think drunk girls should be left alone even if they do consent. Do you ever take seriously the words of someone drunk? Just leave them alone, don't go home with them, don't get involved, for both of your own good.

Links234

http://thecorknews.ie/articles/anti-rape-ad-targets-potential-offenders-9101

The initiative is part of an international ad campaign, Don't Be That Guy, promoting the message that sex without consent is the same as sexual assault. A community collaboration in Edmonton, Alberta first launched the posters in 2010, targeting potential offenders rather than potential victims of sexual assault. It’s success in one Canadian city, Vancouver saw a 10% drop in assaults.

It seems to have been effective where it was used before.

honestly, they definitely should be telling guys not to rape, not just telling girls not to get raped, and this is a step in the right direction.

clairefontaine

clairefontaine wrote: »

Honestly, I think drunk girls should be left alone even if they do consent. Do you ever take seriously the words of someone drunk? Just leave them alone, don't go home with them, don't get involved, for both of your own good.

Want to add, that I would also advise women to keep a distance from drunk men too. Judgement is compromised under the influence. It's just safer that way.

LittleBook

Roadtrippin wrote: »

The difference to previous campaigns is that it's not addressing the victim this time but potential sex offenders...

Not the first time this has been done. We had a discussion here about this poster:

http://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/drinking-is-not-a-crime-rape-is/

which, for some people, seemed to be sending a message to women that they could "cry rape" if they got drunk and regretted having consensual sex with a guy ... followed by a chorus of "well if you get that drunk ... " :rolleyes:

I guess, since in this poster the girl is completely passed out, there'll be less ambiguity for some people.

Das Kitty

Links234 wrote: »

honestly, they definitely should be telling guys not to rape, not just telling girls not to get raped, and this is a step in the right direction.

This.

What you're really saying when you advise girls on how not to get raped is, "Make sure he rapes the other girl and not you."

titan18

Whilst the campaign makes sense, the fact that it's quite discriminatory and sexist means I hate it.

Nice way of re-enforcing that only guys commit sexual assault etc

seamus

Not sure where I saw the ad recently but I found it very effective, basically a typical guy and girl getting it on scenario, she starts pushing him away, but he starts insisting. Then it cuts to him behind plexiglass watching himself raping the girl and screaming at himself to stop.

I think it's a UK ad, but I liked that it was being shown. The tone of the ad was specifically to show that rape doesn't just cover violent random attacks, it's any scenario without consent.

Lisha wrote: »

Was listening to colm too he seemed a bit bemused that the assaulter was been the target if the ad campaign not the victim

I'm trying to phrase this in a way that it doesn't sound like victim blaming;

I think a victim-targetted campaign run in conjunction with this one would be equally useful to help combat sexual assault. A campaign which focussed on encouraging women (and indeed men) to come forward when they've been the subject of assault or even inappropriate advances - especially at home, in school or in the workplace.
While it's perfectly understandable that people want to just get on with things and not let it get out of hand, if it can be nipped in the bud then everyone wins.
Perhaps some kind of independent authority for sexual assault (like NERA for employees) could be used to report incidents without the very real fear that an employer would ignore or brush off the complaint?

I know of one very recent incident where a girl snapped after constantly being subject to inappropriate comments, advances and touching from a senior member of staff. When the whole thing was investigated, it turned out that practically every member of female staff had experienced the same crap from the guy for years, but nobody ever said anything, largely because they felt the boss would ignore them.
If they'd had the confidence to report this after the first incident(s), then the guy could have been fired ten years ago and nobody else would have had to deal with his crap.

Links234

titan18 wrote: »

Nice way of re-enforcing that only guys commit sexual assault etc

it's not a zero sum game! focusing on one thing doesn't mean that you're denying another thing exists. YES, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women, it happens and nobody is trying to deny it happens.

it's like saying drink driving ads are re-enforcing that only drink driving causes accidents.

LittleBook

seamus wrote: »

Not sure where I saw the ad recently but I found it very effective, basically a typical guy and girl getting it on scenario, she starts pushing him away, but he starts insisting. Then it cuts to him behind plexiglass watching himself raping the girl and screaming at himself to stop.

I think it's a UK ad, but I liked that it was being shown. The tone of the ad was specifically to show that rape doesn't just cover violent random attacks, it's any scenario without consent.

Here it is, powerful ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gEftWCG5Ow

seamus wrote: »

I'm trying to phrase this in a way that it doesn't sound like victim blaming;

I think a victim-targetted campaign run in conjunction with this one would be equally useful to help combat sexual assault. A campaign which focussed on encouraging women (and indeed men) to come forward when they've been the subject of assault or even inappropriate advances - especially at home, in school or in the workplace.
While it's perfectly understandable that people want to just get on with things and not let it get out of hand, if it can be nipped in the bud then everyone wins.
Perhaps some kind of independent authority for sexual assault (like NERA for employees) could be used to report incidents without the very real fear that an employer would ignore or brush off the complaint?

Jaysus you had me worried there for a second Seamus but, as usual, you're right on the money and there isn't so much as a sniff of "victim-blaming" in your post. The kind of campaign you suggest is an excellent idea and, along with the one in the OP, could make a huge difference.

The problem is that, in this country at least, there isn't enough to back up any kind of claim that reporting a rape is the best way to go ... what with our stats and how a few high profile cases have been treated lately (where consent wasn't even vaguely an issue).

titan18

Links234 wrote: »

it's not a zero sum game! focusing on one thing doesn't mean that you're denying another thing exists. YES, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women, it happens and nobody is trying to deny it happens.

it's like saying drink driving ads are re-enforcing that only drink driving causes accidents.

Oh, I know, I just see the name of the campaign as quite insulting and sexist.

Sure, incidences of male on female would be higher, and well for stuff like minor sexual assault, attitudes would be much different for male on female than female on male

LittleBook

Links234 wrote: »

it's not a zero sum game! focusing on one thing doesn't mean that you're denying another thing exists. YES, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women, it happens and nobody is trying to deny it happens.

it's like saying drink driving ads are re-enforcing that only drink driving causes accidents.

Sorry, that's my fault for leaving "this is sexist, not all men are rapists and not all rapists are men" out of my lists of the usual objections to these kinds of campaigns.

Links234

so by that reasoning the ad is also prejudiced against children and re-inforces that children don't get raped

like I said, it's not a zero sum game...

I'd love to see a discussion about this topic that doesn't come around to "what about teh menz!?"

redappple

A comment from the facebook page:

Things are bad when lads have to be reminded not to rape

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

Das Kitty

redappple wrote: »

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

And if it makes just one of those 'creeps' stop and think, isn't that a good thing?

Lollipops23

redappple wrote: »

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

You'd be surprised. Sometimes the waters get very murky- I think this campaign is a great way of getting guys to hold a mirror up to themselves and their own conscience . I think some of the time the guy has never imagined himself in said scenario and might be more likely to make a bad decision due to this.

This campaign forces themselves to put themselves in the situation (even if its in their own head) and hopefully, they'll know what to do if it ever arises.

Roadtrippin

titan18 wrote: »

Whilst the campaign makes sense, the fact that it's quite discriminatory and sexist means I hate it.

Nice way of re-enforcing that only guys commit sexual assault etc

It's not sexist. The fact of the matter is that the majority of rapes are perpetrated by men. Nobody is saying that men don't get raped or assaulted or that women can't be perpetrators. This campaign is just targeting the statistically more likely offenders: men!
Of course, there should also be other awareness-raising campaigns but this particular one is geared towards a very specific demographic: young guys/college guys and anybody else that has ever had doubt about how consensual is sex really when both parties or one party is locked...

jaffacakesyum

On the Spotted In Coppers facebook page, there was one post where a guy was describing his drunken encounter with a woman, they went back to his/hers, he put a condom on, she fell asleep; He started bragging about how he took the condom off and continued.

Now these comments on Spotted In ___ pages need to be taken with a pinch of salt. He could have been joking/lying/exaggerating but if this is true it's really an eye opener of how some 'normal' seeming lads can have terrible opinions about this. The post got over 700 likes and a few people brought up that this is rape and a sick joke if it is indeed a joke, and there were a lot of men saying "what are you talking about, she agreed to go back home with him just because he took off a johnny doesn't mean it's rape"

These lads were all students, some of them in my college.

So yes, I do think this campaign is a good idea.

Roadtrippin

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

On the Spotted In Coppers facebook page, there was one post where a guy was describing his drunken encounter with a woman, they went back to his/hers, he put a condom on, she fell asleep; He started bragging about how he took the condom off and continued.

[...]The post got over 700 likes and a few people brought up that this is rape and a sick joke if it is indeed a joke, and there were a lot of men saying "what are you talking about, she agreed to go back home with him just because he took off a johnny doesn't mean it's rape"

These lads were all students, some of them in my college.

So yes, I do think this campaign is a good idea.

Quite the eye opener is right. Doesn't it make you sick when you hear attitudes like that. They are a lot more common then people think. So, this campaign definitely is a good idea, I agree!!!
And even if that guy was joking... what a sick joke to make! If it wasn't a joke he should be locked up if you ask me. Just because a girl takes a guy home doesn't mean he gets to f*** her if she falls asleep!!! Outrageous! It definitely doesn't mean he should be allowed to take his condom off! That borders on something else... Legally that should fall under some conscious endangerment clause somewhere (legal minds, do jump in here if you know whether there are grounds for a charge of sorts here) and is definitely not right!

Lisha

Good Lord
Jaffacakesyum s comment is actually heart breaking

Apologies if this is too crude but what is really needed is a 'if s/he is asleep then it is really just the same as a **** with another person attached'

(I saw the above description on a different thread and it has stuck in my head)

Just because a girl/boy talks to you, drinks with you, had the craic with you, sex is not guaranteed

I'm a bit lost for words actually

Roadtrippin

In case anyone hadn't seen this photo yet, I thought it sums up the discussion nicely...

Still not asking for it

Millicent

redappple wrote: »

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

The scary thing is it's not a certain type of creep. This study found that a scary six percent of college students didn't think sleeping with someone while drunk was rape. They admitted to behaviours that were rape but only when it wasn't described as such.

That's why campaigns such as this one are so important, to break that frightening cognitive dissonance that respondents like these guys have between their actions and what they think of as rape.

Lisha

I think society has an opinion that a 'real rapist' is one who jumps out in the dark alleyway and grabs a random person and rapes them forcibly at knife point

The college boys as described in the above posts think that just because they were having a laugh with a girl all night, that sex is there for the taking. She being passed out asleep is just a minor detail.
This is rape

In my opinion this message needs to start in secondary school at the latest.

The message also needs to be told to young boys and girls that porn is not real.