New campaign 'Don't be that guy' - how effective will it really be?

Roadtrippin

I listened to a discussion on the Colm Hayes show earlier about an ad campaign warning against sexual assault entitled 'Don't be that guy'

https://www.facebook.com/2fmofficial

The difference to previous campaigns is that it's not addressing the victim this time but potential sex offenders...
How effective do you think this campaign will be? I personally think it's good that they are taking a different approach then always depicting the victim to be partially responsible when getting too drunk, dressing a certain way etc. I'm glad this will help to get people talking about the issue etc. but I do wonder how good this campaign will be in terms of deterring offenders??

Death and Taxes

Anything that raises awareness has to be a good thing, for far two long many sexual assaults have been excused as "just getting a little over excited" on the part of the perpetrator, or have been blamed directly or indirectly on the victim because of her dress, demeanour, or because she had a few drinks.

LoonyLovegood

I honestly think it'll help. It was launched by USI, and they're really pushing it (at least in my college). Talking to some lads I know, they didn't really think about it this way, in that just because she doesn't say anything doesn't mean a girl means yes. So hopefully it'll work.

Roadtrippin

CTYIgirl wrote: »

I honestly think it'll help. It was launched by USI, and they're really pushing it (at least in my college). Talking to some lads I know, they didn't really think about it this way, in that just because she doesn't say anything doesn't mean a girl means yes. So hopefully it'll work.

Yeah, that's the hope, I think. Get people discussing it and raise awareness. Some of the points they were making on the 2FM show earlier was that most guys wouldn't think that way about a girl lying on the couch drunk. They would do the decent thing and leave her be or bring her home. Those that think otherwise would probably not feel addressed by that campaign anyway because they have no respect for women...

I don't know how true that is. I reckon for some guys the minute drink is involved they don't always know the line. Like the campaign says, just because she didn't say no, doesn't mean she said yes!

eviltwin

It might make some guys think a little bit more about their choices which can only be a good thing. It might also help their victims realise they ARE victims and get the help and support they need.

clairefontaine

Hopefully it will teach both genders to drink more responsibly.

Lisha

Was listening to colm too he seemed a bit bemused that the assaulter was been the target if the ad campaign not the victim

Rape or sexual assault is always caused by the assaulter not the victim

I welcome the campaign I really hope young men modify their attitudes to women
It is not sex if she is passed out/asleep
An absence of no does not always mean yes

The sense of sexual entitlement as part ofa night out that some young men have is just mind boggling

I watched tallaghfornia lately and was so saddened at the lengths the girls would go to to get/keep a man

Yes sex can be a very enjoyable recreational activity but it should not be mandatory unless both parties are willing

Call me old fashioned, I don't care, but sex has been cheapened and lost all value

I really hope this campaign does help

I am a great believer in conscious raising around a lot of issues so yes it is a good idea.

Roadtrippin

clairefontaine wrote: »

Hopefully it will teach both genders to drink more responsibly.

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one to happen anytime soon... As in both genders a certain age tend to drink too much at some stage or another. Particularly in places where the campaign is launched, such as universities, colleges and ITs drink won't go away as a factor in rape cases, I think.

It is very important to make guys understand that drunk girls arent fair game if they cant consent!

clairefontaine

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that one to happen anytime soon... Particularly in places where the campaign is launched, such as universities, colleges and ITs drink won't go away as a factor in rape cases, I think.

It is very important to make guys understand that drunk girls arent fair game if they cant consent!

Honestly, I think drunk girls should be left alone even if they do consent. Do you ever take seriously the words of someone drunk? Just leave them alone, don't go home with them, don't get involved, for both of your own good.

Links234

http://thecorknews.ie/articles/anti-rape-ad-targets-potential-offenders-9101

The initiative is part of an international ad campaign, Don't Be That Guy, promoting the message that sex without consent is the same as sexual assault. A community collaboration in Edmonton, Alberta first launched the posters in 2010, targeting potential offenders rather than potential victims of sexual assault. It’s success in one Canadian city, Vancouver saw a 10% drop in assaults.

It seems to have been effective where it was used before.

honestly, they definitely should be telling guys not to rape, not just telling girls not to get raped, and this is a step in the right direction.

clairefontaine

clairefontaine wrote: »

Honestly, I think drunk girls should be left alone even if they do consent. Do you ever take seriously the words of someone drunk? Just leave them alone, don't go home with them, don't get involved, for both of your own good.

Want to add, that I would also advise women to keep a distance from drunk men too. Judgement is compromised under the influence. It's just safer that way.

LittleBook

Roadtrippin wrote: »

The difference to previous campaigns is that it's not addressing the victim this time but potential sex offenders...

Not the first time this has been done. We had a discussion here about this poster:

http://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/news/drinking-is-not-a-crime-rape-is/

which, for some people, seemed to be sending a message to women that they could "cry rape" if they got drunk and regretted having consensual sex with a guy ... followed by a chorus of "well if you get that drunk ... " :rolleyes:

I guess, since in this poster the girl is completely passed out, there'll be less ambiguity for some people.

Das Kitty

Links234 wrote: »

honestly, they definitely should be telling guys not to rape, not just telling girls not to get raped, and this is a step in the right direction.

This.

What you're really saying when you advise girls on how not to get raped is, "Make sure he rapes the other girl and not you."

titan18

Whilst the campaign makes sense, the fact that it's quite discriminatory and sexist means I hate it.

Nice way of re-enforcing that only guys commit sexual assault etc

seamus

Not sure where I saw the ad recently but I found it very effective, basically a typical guy and girl getting it on scenario, she starts pushing him away, but he starts insisting. Then it cuts to him behind plexiglass watching himself raping the girl and screaming at himself to stop.

I think it's a UK ad, but I liked that it was being shown. The tone of the ad was specifically to show that rape doesn't just cover violent random attacks, it's any scenario without consent.

Lisha wrote: »

Was listening to colm too he seemed a bit bemused that the assaulter was been the target if the ad campaign not the victim

I'm trying to phrase this in a way that it doesn't sound like victim blaming;

I think a victim-targetted campaign run in conjunction with this one would be equally useful to help combat sexual assault. A campaign which focussed on encouraging women (and indeed men) to come forward when they've been the subject of assault or even inappropriate advances - especially at home, in school or in the workplace.
While it's perfectly understandable that people want to just get on with things and not let it get out of hand, if it can be nipped in the bud then everyone wins.
Perhaps some kind of independent authority for sexual assault (like NERA for employees) could be used to report incidents without the very real fear that an employer would ignore or brush off the complaint?

I know of one very recent incident where a girl snapped after constantly being subject to inappropriate comments, advances and touching from a senior member of staff. When the whole thing was investigated, it turned out that practically every member of female staff had experienced the same crap from the guy for years, but nobody ever said anything, largely because they felt the boss would ignore them.
If they'd had the confidence to report this after the first incident(s), then the guy could have been fired ten years ago and nobody else would have had to deal with his crap.

Links234

titan18 wrote: »

Nice way of re-enforcing that only guys commit sexual assault etc

it's not a zero sum game! focusing on one thing doesn't mean that you're denying another thing exists. YES, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women, it happens and nobody is trying to deny it happens.

it's like saying drink driving ads are re-enforcing that only drink driving causes accidents.

LittleBook

seamus wrote: »

Not sure where I saw the ad recently but I found it very effective, basically a typical guy and girl getting it on scenario, she starts pushing him away, but he starts insisting. Then it cuts to him behind plexiglass watching himself raping the girl and screaming at himself to stop.

I think it's a UK ad, but I liked that it was being shown. The tone of the ad was specifically to show that rape doesn't just cover violent random attacks, it's any scenario without consent.

Here it is, powerful ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gEftWCG5Ow

seamus wrote: »

I'm trying to phrase this in a way that it doesn't sound like victim blaming;

I think a victim-targetted campaign run in conjunction with this one would be equally useful to help combat sexual assault. A campaign which focussed on encouraging women (and indeed men) to come forward when they've been the subject of assault or even inappropriate advances - especially at home, in school or in the workplace.
While it's perfectly understandable that people want to just get on with things and not let it get out of hand, if it can be nipped in the bud then everyone wins.
Perhaps some kind of independent authority for sexual assault (like NERA for employees) could be used to report incidents without the very real fear that an employer would ignore or brush off the complaint?

Jaysus you had me worried there for a second Seamus but, as usual, you're right on the money and there isn't so much as a sniff of "victim-blaming" in your post. The kind of campaign you suggest is an excellent idea and, along with the one in the OP, could make a huge difference.

The problem is that, in this country at least, there isn't enough to back up any kind of claim that reporting a rape is the best way to go ... what with our stats and how a few high profile cases have been treated lately (where consent wasn't even vaguely an issue).

titan18

Links234 wrote: »

it's not a zero sum game! focusing on one thing doesn't mean that you're denying another thing exists. YES, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women, it happens and nobody is trying to deny it happens.

it's like saying drink driving ads are re-enforcing that only drink driving causes accidents.

Oh, I know, I just see the name of the campaign as quite insulting and sexist.

Sure, incidences of male on female would be higher, and well for stuff like minor sexual assault, attitudes would be much different for male on female than female on male

LittleBook

Links234 wrote: »

it's not a zero sum game! focusing on one thing doesn't mean that you're denying another thing exists. YES, men rape men, women rape men, women rape women, it happens and nobody is trying to deny it happens.

it's like saying drink driving ads are re-enforcing that only drink driving causes accidents.

Sorry, that's my fault for leaving "this is sexist, not all men are rapists and not all rapists are men" out of my lists of the usual objections to these kinds of campaigns.

Links234

so by that reasoning the ad is also prejudiced against children and re-inforces that children don't get raped

like I said, it's not a zero sum game...

I'd love to see a discussion about this topic that doesn't come around to "what about teh menz!?"

redappple

A comment from the facebook page:

Things are bad when lads have to be reminded not to rape

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

Das Kitty

redappple wrote: »

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

And if it makes just one of those 'creeps' stop and think, isn't that a good thing?

Lollipops23

redappple wrote: »

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

You'd be surprised. Sometimes the waters get very murky- I think this campaign is a great way of getting guys to hold a mirror up to themselves and their own conscience . I think some of the time the guy has never imagined himself in said scenario and might be more likely to make a bad decision due to this.

This campaign forces themselves to put themselves in the situation (even if its in their own head) and hopefully, they'll know what to do if it ever arises.

Roadtrippin

titan18 wrote: »

Whilst the campaign makes sense, the fact that it's quite discriminatory and sexist means I hate it.

Nice way of re-enforcing that only guys commit sexual assault etc

It's not sexist. The fact of the matter is that the majority of rapes are perpetrated by men. Nobody is saying that men don't get raped or assaulted or that women can't be perpetrators. This campaign is just targeting the statistically more likely offenders: men!
Of course, there should also be other awareness-raising campaigns but this particular one is geared towards a very specific demographic: young guys/college guys and anybody else that has ever had doubt about how consensual is sex really when both parties or one party is locked...

jaffacakesyum

On the Spotted In Coppers facebook page, there was one post where a guy was describing his drunken encounter with a woman, they went back to his/hers, he put a condom on, she fell asleep; He started bragging about how he took the condom off and continued.

Now these comments on Spotted In ___ pages need to be taken with a pinch of salt. He could have been joking/lying/exaggerating but if this is true it's really an eye opener of how some 'normal' seeming lads can have terrible opinions about this. The post got over 700 likes and a few people brought up that this is rape and a sick joke if it is indeed a joke, and there were a lot of men saying "what are you talking about, she agreed to go back home with him just because he took off a johnny doesn't mean it's rape"

These lads were all students, some of them in my college.

So yes, I do think this campaign is a good idea.

Roadtrippin

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

On the Spotted In Coppers facebook page, there was one post where a guy was describing his drunken encounter with a woman, they went back to his/hers, he put a condom on, she fell asleep; He started bragging about how he took the condom off and continued.

[...]The post got over 700 likes and a few people brought up that this is rape and a sick joke if it is indeed a joke, and there were a lot of men saying "what are you talking about, she agreed to go back home with him just because he took off a johnny doesn't mean it's rape"

These lads were all students, some of them in my college.

So yes, I do think this campaign is a good idea.

Quite the eye opener is right. Doesn't it make you sick when you hear attitudes like that. They are a lot more common then people think. So, this campaign definitely is a good idea, I agree!!!
And even if that guy was joking... what a sick joke to make! If it wasn't a joke he should be locked up if you ask me. Just because a girl takes a guy home doesn't mean he gets to f*** her if she falls asleep!!! Outrageous! It definitely doesn't mean he should be allowed to take his condom off! That borders on something else... Legally that should fall under some conscious endangerment clause somewhere (legal minds, do jump in here if you know whether there are grounds for a charge of sorts here) and is definitely not right!

Lisha

Good Lord
Jaffacakesyum s comment is actually heart breaking

Apologies if this is too crude but what is really needed is a 'if s/he is asleep then it is really just the same as a **** with another person attached'

(I saw the above description on a different thread and it has stuck in my head)

Just because a girl/boy talks to you, drinks with you, had the craic with you, sex is not guaranteed

I'm a bit lost for words actually

Roadtrippin

In case anyone hadn't seen this photo yet, I thought it sums up the discussion nicely...

Still not asking for it

Millicent

redappple wrote: »

There is only a certain type of creep that see's a girl lying unconscious on a couch and thinks 'she's totally game for this' . . .

The scary thing is it's not a certain type of creep. This study found that a scary six percent of college students didn't think sleeping with someone while drunk was rape. They admitted to behaviours that were rape but only when it wasn't described as such.

That's why campaigns such as this one are so important, to break that frightening cognitive dissonance that respondents like these guys have between their actions and what they think of as rape.

Lisha

I think society has an opinion that a 'real rapist' is one who jumps out in the dark alleyway and grabs a random person and rapes them forcibly at knife point

The college boys as described in the above posts think that just because they were having a laugh with a girl all night, that sex is there for the taking. She being passed out asleep is just a minor detail.
This is rape

In my opinion this message needs to start in secondary school at the latest.

The message also needs to be told to young boys and girls that porn is not real.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Lisha wrote: »

Was listening to colm too he seemed a bit bemused that the assaulter was been the target if the ad campaign not the victim

Rape or sexual assault is always caused by the assaulter not the victim

I welcome the campaign I really hope young men modify their attitudes to women
It is not sex if she is passed out/asleep
An absence of no does not always mean yes

The sense of sexual entitlement as part ofa night out that some young men have is just mind boggling

I watched tallaghfornia lately and was so saddened at the lengths the girls would go to to get/keep a man

Yes sex can be a very enjoyable recreational activity but it should not be mandatory unless both parties are willing

Call me old fashioned, I don't care, but sex has been cheapened and lost all value

I really hope this campaign does help

Please do not use Tallafornia as a basis for reference to your average young fella in Ireland

Lisha

deccurley wrote: »

Please do not use Tallafornia as a basis for reference to your average young fella in Ireland

I don't but it is worrying to think that program's like tallafornia are being viewed by young teenagers, who might think what they have seen is normal/acceptable behaviour

April O Neill

Links234 wrote: »

honestly, they definitely should be telling guys not to rape, not just telling girls not to get raped, and this is a step in the right direction.

I think a man who has the potential to rape isn't really going to listen to a campaign! Trying to appeal to would-be rapists in this way kinda implies that any man is a potential rapist. At least that's how it comes across to me. It's kinda flippant and finger-wagging, like "now, make sure you don't commit rape when you go out tonight!" as if in the same league as advising someone not to drink too much or something.

I'm very much in the minority in this thread, but it doesn't sit well with me at all.

Stheno

seamus wrote: »

I know of one very recent incident where a girl snapped after constantly being subject to inappropriate comments, advances and touching from a senior member of staff. When the whole thing was investigated, it turned out that practically every member of female staff had experienced the same crap from the guy for years, but nobody ever said anything, largely because they felt the boss would ignore them.
If they'd had the confidence to report this after the first incident(s), then the guy could have been fired ten years ago and nobody else would have had to deal with his crap.

This happened to me in one company I worked in, while there was no touching, all of the above applied. I ended up on sick leave with stress related physical illnesses and being sent to the company doctor.

Then one day I found a female colleague crying in the toilets, and for the first time, found out someone else felt like I did. We were lucky as we spent ages trying to figure out if the relevant management would listen to us, but our boss who was the cause of it, ended up on long term sick leave with some nasty infection.

After a month of our teams performing far better etc, we got called in to our acting manager and asked why. We then ended up in front of our department head, who started an investigation and when the "abuser" came back from sick leave he was demoted and never managed anyone again.

April O Neill wrote: »

I think a man who has the potential to rape isn't really going to listen to a campaign! Trying to appeal to would-be rapists in this way kinda implies that any man is a potential rapist. At least that's how it comes across to me. It's kinda flippant and finger-wagging, like "now, make sure you don't commit rape when you go out tonight!" as if in the same league as advising someone not to drink too much or something.

I'm very much in the minority in this thread, but it doesn't sit well with me at all.

I think a lot of men don't realise that without consent, having sex with someone is rape. Having sex with a women who is comatose from drink, and mumbling away, or thinking they want it as you are paralytic, is not consent.

It's not flippant or finger wagging to say "Make sure the person you think wants to have sex with you, actually does"

Not doing so could end up ruining not only the life of the victim, but that of the man whom no one considered a potential rapist, but who became one in a moment of poor judgement.

Ken.

What I believe needs to happen in the new ad's is it needs to be hammered home that the girl is someone's mother,sister,daughter. Would you like someone doing the same to your mother,sister,daughter if they were comatose from drink.

Stheno

ken wrote: »

What I believe needs to happen in the new ad's is it needs to be hammered home that the girl is someone's mother,sister,daughter. Would you like someone doing the same to your mother,sister,daughter if they were comatose from drink.

Is that really going to enter a guys head when they themselves are under the influence of drink?

I don't really like that sort of message

April O Neill

Stheno wrote: »

I think a lot of men don't realise that without consent, having sex with someone is rape. Having sex with a women who is comatose from drink, and mumbling away, or thinking they want it as you are paralytic, is not consent.

Yes, that's not good. But there is also the side of it that a woman can give (drunken) consent and that's a tricky area too, as there's often scenes missing from many a woman's (and man's) drunken night out. I've been there! So, she gives consent, doesn't remember the next day, sees who she slept with and thinks "No way, HIM?" and thinks she didn't consent or doesn't want to believe she did.

Obviously paralytic drunk? Yeah, guys should stay away. Thing is, you can be inwardly paralytic and seem relatively okay outwardly.

I think what bothers me about it, is it suggests, in much the same way as the awful "she was asking for it" nonsense, that men simply cannot control themselves and become feral at the sight of flesh or an easy target. "She was asking for it" isn't just victim-blaming and highly insulting to women, it's also highly insulting to men. This campaign isn't much better, IMO.

Obviously a guy needs to make sure she consents. But if memories of the night before are patchy, can either party remember what happened or if consent was given? There's responsibility on both sides here.

Stheno

April O Neill wrote: »

Yes, that's not good. But there is also the side of it that a woman can give (drunken) consent and that's a tricky area too, as there's often scenes missing from many a woman's (and man's) drunken night out. I've been there! So, she gives consent, doesn't remember the next day, sees who she slept with and thinks "No way, HIM?" and thinks she didn't consent or doesn't want to believe she did.

Obviously paralytic drunk? Yeah, guys should stay away. Thing is, you can be inwardly paralytic and seem relatively okay outwardly.

I think what bothers me about it, is it suggests, in much the same way as the awful "she was asking for it" nonsense, that men simply cannot control themselves and become feral at the sight of flesh or an easy target. "She was asking for it" isn't just victim-blaming and highly insulting to women, it's also highly insulting to men. This campaign isn't much better, IMO.

Obviously a guy needs to make sure she consents. But if memories of the night before are patchy, can either party remember what happened or if consent was given? There's responsibility on both sides here.

I'm not questioning that at all, I'm saying that given the guy is the one most likely to be accused that they need to be more careful to make sure they get consent.

Roadtrippin

April O Neill wrote: »

I think a man who has the potential to rape isn't really going to listen to a campaign! Trying to appeal to would-be rapists in this way kinda implies that any man is a potential rapist. At least that's how it comes across to me. It's kinda flippant and finger-wagging, like "now, make sure you don't commit rape when you go out tonight!" as if in the same league as advising someone not to drink too much or something.

I think you're partially right that this ad campaign isn't going to deter a serial sex offender. However, this ad is geared towards younger guys warning them to think about what they are doing when she and/or they themselves are under the influence of drink or other substances.
It is a myth that in a lot of cases rapes and sexual assaults are only committed by the unknown rapist in the alleyway or a repeat offender. I believe it can happen quickly enough that a young guy on too much drink gets himself into a situation he didn't judge correctly because he wasn't thinking about what he was doing and whether she was able to consent. More often than not rapes are perpetrated by someone the victim knows. All this ad is doing is raising awareness that even someone who didn't think of himself as a potential sex offender can make a huge mistake given certain circumstances. In no way are they implying that every guy is a rapist.

April O Neill wrote: »

But there is also the side of it that a woman can give (drunken) consent and that's a tricky area too, as there's often scenes missing from many a woman's (and man's) drunken night out. I've been there! So, she gives consent, doesn't remember the next day [...] and thinks she didn't consent or doesn't want to believe she did.

I know what you're trying to get at here and yes, the boundaries are blurry when both were drunk and neither can remember what happened. It is tricky to ascertain exactly if consent was given as such.

April O Neill wrote: »

Thing is, you can be inwardly paralytic and seem relatively okay outwardly.

Definitely. Happened to me a couple of times that people thought I was perfectly fine and then it turned out I was way too drunk really but just a 'very controlled' drunk
All I would advise a guy to do in either situation is be careful what you're doing. Why not wait until she's sober to be on the safe side?

April O Neill wrote: »

I think what bothers me about it, is it suggests, in much the same way as the awful "she was asking for it" nonsense, that men simply cannot control themselves.

Nobody is saying that. But I have seen guys change on drink and considering some can't control other behaviour on drink either (e.g. act abrasive, get into fights or take more risks etc.) who is to say they wouldn't act differently when taking a girl home? Drink and other drugs lower inhibitions and change people's behaviour - all this ad is doing is make guys think twice before misreading a situation that could forever change the victims and their lives as well!

eviltwin

I think it really needs to be expanded into our schools, get guys and girls before they are at the clubbling and pubbing stage. I do think April has a point, some guys who might be the type to take advantage possibly won't change their behaviour. Its amazing the way people can justify things to themselves.

I think we need to also look at the men of tomorrow and in conjunction with a drink awarness campaign in schools let everyone know sex with a drunken person is never acceptable...it works both ways. I remember being at a party and seeing a guy out cold on the sofa and a group of girls trying to have a look down his trousers for a bet, obviously its not rape but this kind of inappropriate behaviour needs to be addressed. Being drunk is not an excuse.

I've spoken to my daughter about this but her school never does. They have classes where they talk about alcohol, classes where they talk about sex...the two are never linked and the issue of consent never comes up. We had a talk about this ad last night and she told me something that really depressed me, she has spoken to her class mates about high profile cases of "was it/wasn't it rape" and she says a lot of her female friends don't see anything wrong with a guy having sex with a drunk girl, they think its normal. If women can't even see when rape is rape we really have a problem.

leggo

eviltwin wrote: »

We had a talk about this ad last night and she told me something that really depressed me, she has spoken to her class mates about high profile cases of "was it/wasn't it rape" and she says a lot of her female friends don't see anything wrong with a guy having sex with a drunk girl, they think its normal. If women can't even see when rape is rape we really have a problem.

Millicent wrote: »

The scary thing is it's not a certain type of creep. This study found that a scary six percent of college students didn't think sleeping with someone while drunk was rape. They admitted to behaviours that were rape but only when it wasn't described as such.

I think people need to clarify the difference between having sex with someone 'while drunk' and having sex with someone while 'so drunk they can't meaningfully consent'. If you consider a drunk man and drunk woman having sex as that man raping that woman, then you're probably saying that 60% of the sexual intercourse that happens on a Saturday night in Ireland would be considered rape (and being extremely sexist in doing so). And no, A isn't adequate shorthand for B. It needs to be clarified.

I'm all for anti-rape campaigns, but the first necessity is that everyone agrees upon what rape actually is...or it doesn't really do anything productive, does it?

eviltwin

leggo wrote: »

I think people need to clarify the difference between having sex with someone 'while drunk' and having sex with someone while 'so drunk they can't meaningfully consent'. If you consider a drunk man and drunk woman having sex as that man raping that woman, then you're probably saying that 60% of the sexual intercourse that happens on a Saturday night in Ireland would be considered rape (and being extremely sexist in doing so). And no, A isn't adequate shorthand for B. It needs to be clarified.

I'm all for anti-rape campaigns, but the first necessity is that everyone agrees upon what rape actually is...or it doesn't really do anything productive, does it?

Just to clarify I'm not talking about someone who has just had a few, I'm talking about cases where a girl might be half asleep on drink or unable to articulate her feelings. To me that's rape, at the very least its taking advantage of someone who is very vulnerable. I think most people would see having sex with someone passed out as rape, its the grey area that needs to be looked at, where someone is conscious but maybe not completely aware of what's happening to them.

I am middle aged with two grown up daughters.. something that I think that is interesting. I know someone who councils teenagers and now that her own daughter is in her mid teens she will not let her go to unsupervised parties she is determined to keep this up till she goes to university, because she has had to deal with the consequences of what the campaign is about.... girls getting comatose drunk and being sexually assaulted, she know her daughter drinks and has talked to her about what can happen.

Another point is that there is a cultural expectation of being sexually active when you are NOT in a relationship,... thus you see posts in personal issues saying stuff like I cant get laid and the guy concerned seem to believe everyone is getting laid and the reason he is not is because...girls are mean or there is something wrong with him personally he is not good looking enough or not confidant enough.

clairefontaine

mariaalice wrote: »

I am middle aged with two grown up daughters.. something that I think that is interesting. I know someone who councils teenagers and now that her own daughter is in her mid teens she will not let her go to unsupervised parties she is determined to keep this up till she goes to university, because she has had to deal with the consequences of what the campaign is about.... girls getting comatose drunk and being sexually assaulted, she know her daughter drinks and has talked to her about what can happen.

Another point is that there is a cultural expectation of being sexually active when you are NOT in a relationship,... thus you see posts in personal issues saying stuff like I cant get laid and the guy concerned seem to believe everyone is getting laid and the reason he is not is because...girls are mean or there is something wrong with him personally he is not good looking enough or not confidant enough.

Really important points.

The double standard. Girls are sluts for sleeping around right? Well boys are fags if they don't. So the peer pressure to get laid around boys and young men is a contributing factor.

I also think that parents need more input here, to teach their sons what consent means, to stay away from drunk girls, what to do if a drunk girl is too pushy, how to handle peer pressure to be sexually active when you dont want to, and how to teach girls to minimise their vulnerability.

eviltwin

clairefontaine wrote: »

Really important points.

The double standard. Girls are sluts for sleeping around right? Well boys are fags if they don't. So the peer pressure to get laid around boys and young men is a contributing factor.

I also think that parents need more input here, to teach their sons what consent means, to stay away from drunk girls, what to do if a drunk girl is too pushy, how to handle peer pressure to be sexually active when you dont want to, and how to teach girls to minimise their vulnerability.

And don't forget if you don't have sex with a guy you are either frigid, a lesbian or you're a fat ugly cow he never wanted to sleep with in the first place.

runawaybishop

Stheno wrote: »

I think a lot of men don't realise that without consent, having sex with someone is rape. Having sex with a women who is comatose from drink, and mumbling away, or thinking they want it as you are paralytic, is not consent.

You'd have to be a retard to not realise that. That or you realise it and don't care. I don't really see how this campaign will suddenly make people think "man, all those peeps i raped - better cut that out".

miamee

runawaybishop wrote: »

You'd have to be a retard to not realise that. That or you realise it and don't care. I don't really see how this campaign will suddenly make people think "man, all those peeps i raped - better cut that out".

I think (hope) that it will make some young men realise that there is a line that is very easily crossed. That it will provoke them to think about situations differently or maybe think about them for the first time from another perspective.

leggo

eviltwin wrote: »

Just to clarify I'm not talking about someone who has just had a few, I'm talking about cases where a girl might be half asleep on drink or unable to articulate her feelings. To me that's rape, at the very least its taking advantage of someone who is very vulnerable. I think most people would see having sex with someone passed out as rape, its the grey area that needs to be looked at, where someone is conscious but maybe not completely aware of what's happening to them.

See I'd agree with that definition, but I think that the exact distinction you've made is important to make every time...and we don't get caught in the notion that if a drunk man has sex with a drunk woman that it's automatically rape, because it's easier to understand.

In my own experience, it's a very Irish thing for both men and women get drunk TO have sex (because drink removes inhibitions, and it's easier to hook up with someone you like and bridge the gap that both of you want to anyway), so that's something we have to factor in as well and another important reason why we can't say that 'having sex while drunk = rape'. You're just pissing against the wind in that case and any awareness campaign is doomed once it goes that direction, whereas this could be massively productive.

I think the important thing to note is that, drunk or sober, people understand what consent is exactly and numerous situations that count as rape, instead of getting focused on this one tiny narrative that could side-track the whole issue.

eviltwin

runawaybishop wrote: »

You'd have to be a retard to not realise that. That or you realise it and don't care. I don't really see how this campaign will suddenly make people think "man, all those peeps i raped - better cut that out".

It might make them think that while its just sex for them its a whole lot more for the woman, women have spoken on this board about men taking advantage of them while they were drunk and it leaves a legacy that lasts a long time. A bit of thought about the impact of their actions on the woman in question wouldn't go amiss.

runawaybishop

miamee wrote: »

I think (hope) that it will make some young men realise that there is a line that is very easily crossed. That it will provoke them to think about situations differently or maybe think about them for the first time from another perspective.

If they don't know about that already then they are idiots, its the ones that already know and don't care that this campaign isn't goign to affect as they don't need educating.