No women friends

Fluorescence

This is an interesting topic for me. My closest friends are female, but that's because we met in an all-girls school and they are among my oldest friends. The majority of friends I've made since leaving school are male. Although I meet plenty of lovely, friendly women, I tend to make better friends with the guys because of shared interests. I love the balance that comes from having friends of both genders, but that's less about gender than it is about meeting all sorts of people with all sorts of worldviews and life experiences.

Re bitching: if a group of girls are bitching about xyz I won't think, "Wow women are bitches!" I'll think, "Wow, these women are bitches!". Some lads I've met are quite the culprits for this behaviour too, though it tends to be more violent language and over quite quickly (in comparison to girls who'll have extended, almost poetic soliloquies about the nature of their dislike/hatred). But then, I don't tend to become friendly with bitchy people anyway as it makes me uncomfortable.

I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here, but if I were to offer something to take away from this post, it would be this: don't attribute the actions of certain individuals or groups of people to the entirety (or even a large majority) of the female population. Chances are you've been unlucky with the women you've met, and your attitude based on these experiences may have put genuine, normal people off the idea of getting to know you better. You'd be annoyed if someone assumed you'd probably be a bit of a bitch based on your gender. You've got to treat each new person in your life as a blank canvas, and not let your past colour your preconceptions of what they'll be like.


Ramble over. Fluorescence out :pac:

Lunni

Lunni wrote: »

I don't b*tch

I wasn't expecting bitter, nasty, judgemental, childish people. Most of my colleagues are less mature than the kids I teach.

Yes, I did see that post as very 'drama queeny' and insensitive, but I do realise a lot of that is my own issue.

Lunni wrote: »

I remember in primary school being confused by how mean most of the girls were.

I also found that they would apply their standards to you and assume you were as calculating, manipulative and mean as they were.

And overly concerned with the pettiest, silliest things, which is a character trait I abhor.

Lunni wrote: »

I feel like nice, genuine, warm women who aren't nasty, competitive, suspicious of other women and don't assume the worst of you are very few and far between.

Lunni wrote: »

Bitter, moany, negative, judgemental, rude... when the boss said my colleagues were all middle-aged women, I was expecting maybe a few 'mammy' types who would be friendly and warm, but they're horrible.

Lunni wrote: »

Where did I say I didn't like women?

Since you're being honest, I'll be honest too. I'm not surprised about your situation. Maybe looking over some of what you've said here, and considering that all the women who've replied to you have had to read these things first, might give you some perspective on why some women might find something in your manner that they don't like.

Stheno

true-or-false wrote: »

Since you're being honest, I'll be honest too. I'm not surprised about your situation. Maybe looking over some of what you've said here, and considering that all the women who've replied to you have had to read these things first, might give you some perspective on why some women might find something in your manner that they don't like.

I agree with this and will expand tomorrow. Just need to think it through

Eve_Dublin

To make it makes zero sense to discount all middle-aged women based on those you work with. Would you have done the same if they were a group of guys?

Wibbs

shoos wrote:

This thread has been great for the sweeping generalisations and stereotypes!

True, but...

as we all know, women are very intuitive

... it's a very easy trap to fall into

true-or-false wrote: »

Since you're being honest, I'll be honest too. I'm not surprised about your situation. Maybe looking over some of what you've said here, and considering that all the women who've replied to you have had to read these things first, might give you some perspective on why some women might find something in your manner that they don't like.

I'd agree but add in the other IMHO more important side of this, Lunni's perception/worldview, even selection bias on this subject. Getting into such a worldview can be remarkably easy.

I'm sure we all know men and women who've had a couple of relationship disasters who now work on the general principle of "all men/women are bitches/bastards". And guess what if you think this you will find plenty of evidence to back your worldview up, which reinforces the worldview until it can get to the point of being entrenched. I have found quite often people would much rather be "right" than happy. They will even go so far as to enable behaviour to reinforce their worldview. Further on the aforementioned "all men/women are bitches/bastards" perception, I've seen otherwise perfectly sane men and women actually push away potentially really good romantic partners because they didn't agree with their inner viewpoint and the same people would often positively select bitches/bastards because it backed it up. Like I say all too often people would rather be right than happy.

TL;DR? Lunni and other folks who reckon "all X are Y", you're dead right, they are. Your perceptions just change the values of X and Y. So if you think everyone is lovely in most cases you'll be right, if you think everyone is out for themselves in most cases again you'll be right. The decision is in each one of us to decide which viewpoint is the healthier one and makes for a better life.

I'd add that while Lunni's worldview is gonna engender lots of WTF? She shouldn't be too harshly judged for it. Vanishingly few of us don't have dodgy perception biases in our own lives, myself included.

Eve_Dublin

TL;DR? Lunni and other folks who reckon "all X are Y", you're dead right, they are. Your perceptions just change the values of X and Y. So if you think everyone is lovely in most cases you'll be right, if you think everyone is out for themselves in most cases again you'll be right. The decision is in each one of us to decide which viewpoint is the healthier one and makes for a better life.

Grrreaatttt!! Nail on the head. That about sums it up, I think.

I'd add that while Lunni's worldview is gonna engender lots of WTF? She shouldn't be too harshly judged for it. Vanishingly few of us don't have dodgy perception biases in our own lives, myself included.

Yes. As I admitted before, I was the same about the Spanish during my rough moments. Even the nicest, most open people I know have some "prejudice" (if you can call it that) when they're honest (although I'm not saying everyone does...I don't know for sure) I've a good friend who's very open person.....but she has a thing with people from Wicklow for some unknown reason

Lunni is just being honest and I suppose she wouldn't have posted if she didn't want to change that aspect of her. I hope she does. I've such good female friends and I feel so, soooo lucky to have them and it'd be lovely if she could one day find the same.

Wibbs

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Even the nicest, most open people I know have some "prejudice" (if you can call it that) when they're honest (although I'm not saying everyone does...I don't know for sure)

I've yet to meet someone who doesn't have some sort of personal preconceived view of reality, just that the more extreme or negative ones are the more obvious.

beks101

Wibbs wrote: »

people would rather be right than happy.

Moral of the thread, the story and life in general.

In order to be happy you have to be able to grow; in order to grow you have to be open to change in your thoughts and ideas and perceptions of the world around you.

I've found that the older you get, the less inclined you are to challenge your own thoughts because they've got so much weight and baggage and experience attached to them. They've "stood the test of time". Our experiences form the basis of our identity, so maybe to challenge some deep rooted albeit misinformed perceptions threatens that very identity, which by definition is sort of the greatest fear there is.

But do you abandon your logical brain, which tells you "x group of people suck, they've hurt me, they've never accepted me, they never will" to potentially seek out a healthier balance and maybe an open approach to people that might make you happier in the long run...or do you clutch protectively to your own biases because they're safer and in a sense help to 'control' the amount of hurt/inadequacy you feel at the hands of other people?

To dismiss them all - to be "right" about them all before giving anyone a chance - means you don't get hurt again. To challenge your own biases means to adopt a maybe somewhat "less intelligent" (some would say downright stupid) trust and openness to people that's based essentially on nothing but also completely necessary in order to find the love and friendship and balance you need to be truly happy.

Ick. Rant over. I just think it's one of life's greatest struggles really. I struggle with it in my relationships, as Id say half of the world does. To trust someone again like some kind of naive child seems like a total abandonment of your highly functioning intelligence which is asking you "are you actually mental? Don't you remember what happened the last time??" It's a fundamental part of the human condition to retreat like so when you've been hurt or made to feel inadequate I would say.

So to end this long rambling soliloquy, I guess OP I'd tell you that you have to weigh up what your current stance on women is adding to your life. Maybe you ARE surrounded by absolute tool bags at work, but in order to use those women as a reason to dismiss every woman in the country you've met or will meet in the future, means there's some sort of road block inside of you that's really at the root of this issue.

You'll probably keep that up for years to come. But will it make you happy?

Wibbs

beks101 wrote: »

Ick. Rant over. I just think it's one of life's greatest struggles really. I struggle with it in my relationships, as Id say half of the world does. To trust someone again like some kind of naive child seems like a total abandonment of your highly functioning intelligence which is asking you "are you actually mental? Don't you remember what happened the last time??" It's a fundamental part of the human condition to retreat like so when you've been hurt or made to feel inadequate I would say.

I reckon the trick is B 1) don't go from one extreme to the other and most of all 2) examine and then process the whys of previous relationship issues(romantic or otherwise) and how you chose to deal with them, even chose the person or people involved. On the latter front it's a sure sign you're choosing a pattern if all or most of your previous relationships(esp romantic) follow a particular pattern. IMHO At some level you're selecting for, even enabling it. Because it's usually subconscious it can be a right bastard to spot too.

Early experiences often set it in motion I've noticed. With male friends I've noted that how their first serious romantic relationship went and how it ended really informed their future attitude. I've found generally women mates to have more adaptability in this for some reason. They remain more open to the possibility of someone that will change their minds. Lunni's take seems to be rooted in childhood and school and not finding women mates after that to reset the mechanism. I've broadly noted some people more prone to continue childhood, especially school experiences into later life as a continuation, whereas others see school as an endpoint and something to leave behind. The latter more likely to generate new worldviews(both good and bad).

Daisy78

beks101 wrote: »

But do you abandon your logical brain, which tells you "x group of people suck, they've hurt me, they've never accepted me, they never will" to potentially seek out a healthier balance and maybe an open approach to people that might make you happier in the long run...or do you clutch protectively to your own biases because they're safer and in a sense help to 'control' the amount of hurt/inadequacy you feel at the hands of other people?

To dismiss them all - to be "right" about them all before giving anyone a chance - means you don't get hurt again. To challenge your own biases means to adopt a maybe somewhat "less intelligent" (some would say downright stupid) trust and openness to people that's based essentially on nothing but also completely necessary in order to find the love and friendship and balance you need to be truly happy.

Ick. Rant over. I just think it's one of life's greatest struggles really. I struggle with it in my relationships, as Id say half of the world does. To trust someone again like some kind of naive child seems like a total abandonment of your highly functioning intelligence which is asking you "are you actually mental? Don't you remember what happened the last time??" It's a fundamental part of the human condition to retreat like so when you've been hurt or made to feel inadequate I would say.




This is the crux of the argument/discussion imo. I think we are the sum of our experiences and if you have one or two bad experiences then all of your subsequent encounters will be coloured by that to a certain extent. I was very quiet in school, found it difficult to socialise cause I thought I wasn't of any interest to anyone. Got to college and started to open up. Met two girls who became friends, life was good, etc. Until I got burned.....badly, so badly that I would say that I was bullied. Imagine I had to wait until college to be bullied by two girls I counted as close friends. To this day I still don't know what I did and I know like it or not it will remain a defining moment in my life. I've made friends since but every time im introduced to women, particularly in a social context my mind starts racing and I get nervous as hell. However I have since made friends with other great girls but it definitely only came about as a result of me having a little chat with myself about dropping my defences. Otherwise I'd be left with nobody.

The women you work with sound like snot bags to me. Not potential friends. But if you keep looking you will find women ( and buachailli) that are more "you". I did and I still intend to continue seeking out more like minded ladies. Good luck in your endeavours.

Eve_Dublin

I can imagine a habit or belief so deeply entrenched is really difficult to change. How does one go about that, I wonder? I dunno how effective telling someone how great women are and how you've only had positive experiences will change their view. I'd imagine it's something you have to work on on your own.

Edit: I don't have to imagine, I know....

clairefontaine

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I can imagine a habit or belief so deeply entrenched is really difficult to change. How does one go about that, I wonder? I dunno how effective telling someone how great women are and how you've only had positive experiences will change their view. I'd imagine it's something you have to work on on your own.

Edit: I don't have to imagine, I know....

The thing is when you are the rat in the maze and never get the cheese, it is reasonable that you will stop trying.

Generally speaking, after the age of 35 people stop opening the door to their lives. The best way to make new friends I suspect is to find something you like doing, like a hobby, and you will meet people that way.

And yes, in the end it doesn't matter a damn who is right and who is wrong.