Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

tayto lover

murphaph wrote: »

Because small and medium enterprises are hammered with rates and whatnot to pay those PS wages, so a reduction might mean a reduction in the cost of doing business, indeed it should do, if the government are serious about job creation.

So the PS are not going to/using these businesses?
Swings and roundabouts. If the PS are not using these businesses because of wage cuts then what they save by having less to pay is offset by less income coming in.
I wonder if the PS will organise a boycott of any shops/businesses associated with ISME in view of their outspoken will to have their wages cut.

noodler

tayto lover wrote: »

So the PS are not going to/using these businesses?
Swings and roundabouts. If the PS are not using these businesses because of wage cuts then what they save by having less to pay is offset by less income coming in.

Surely the Government should try and employ everyone then?

tayto lover

AlexisM wrote: »

Public sector pensions went up in line with public sector increases (benchmarking etc. - same %s applied to retired as active) so it seems fair that public sector pensions should reduce in line with public sector decreases.

They did i'm told.

tayto lover

noodler wrote: »

Surely the Government should try and employ everyone then?

Don't get that, explain please.

Geuze

AlexisM wrote: »

Public sector pensions went up in line with public sector increases (benchmarking etc. - same %s applied to retired as active) so it seems fair that public sector pensions should reduce in line with public sector decreases.

I agree.

But they didn't decline in line with PS wages.

(1) PS workers pay cut BUT no cut to PS pensions.

(2) PS workers pay the PRD, at 10% on wages from 20-60k, at 10.5% on wages over 60k. PS pensioners pay PRD on their pension, BUT less of a cut, 6-9%.

(3) now, PS wages being cut, with direct cuts starting at 5.5% over 65k, but just cuts of 2% on PS pensions over 32.5k

Geuze

CASE STUDY

PS pensioner, married, over 65

PS pension =36k plus other incomes, total 50k approx gross.

2010 tax paid = 5% or 2500 euro


250k on deposit

Med card + travel pass + household benefits package (free TV licence, cheaper elec, telecom)

The country can't afford this


OK, household benefits package reduced in 2012/13.

Now a 2% cut to the 36k pension.

BUT, these groups have not taken enough of the pain compared to working families.

Rightwing

Geuze wrote: »

CASE STUDY

PS pensioner, married, over 65

PS pension =36k plus other incomes, total 50k approx gross.

2010 tax paid = 5% or 2500 euro


250k on deposit

Med card + travel pass + household benefits package (free TV licence, cheaper elec, telecom)

The country can't afford this


OK, household benefits package reduced in 2012/13.

Now a 2% cut to the 36k pension.

BUT, these groups have not taken enough of the pain compared to working families.

That looks like a flawed case study. That individual would fail the means test to get a medical card for instance.

Godge

Geuze wrote: »

CASE STUDY

PS pensioner, married, over 65

PS pension =36k plus other incomes, total 50k approx gross.

2010 tax paid = 5% or 2500 euro


250k on deposit

Med card + travel pass + household benefits package (free TV licence, cheaper elec, telecom)

The country can't afford this


OK, household benefits package reduced in 2012/13.

Now a 2% cut to the 36k pension.

BUT, these groups have not taken enough of the pain compared to working families.

Rightwing wrote: »

That looks like a flawed case study. That individual would fail the means test to get a medical card for instance.

If they were over-70, they would qualify for the medical card.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/entitlement_to_health_services/medical_card.html


Gross income: 50k = €958 per week
Notional interest income = 3% of 250k - 36k = 3% of 214k = €6400 = €123 per week

total income for assessment purposes = €1081 per week

This is below the threshold of €1200 per week which applies for a medical card.

I must say that it is a very high income threshold when you think there are people working hard on two incomes with sick children who would not qualify for a medical card.

tayto lover

Geuze wrote: »

I agree.

But they didn't decline in line with PS wages.

(1) PS workers pay cut BUT no cut to PS pensions.

(2) PS workers pay the PRD, at 10% on wages from 20-60k, at 10.5% on wages over 60k. PS pensioners pay PRD on their pension, BUT less of a cut, 6-9%.

(3) now, PS wages being cut, with direct cuts starting at 5.5% over 65k, but just cuts of 2% on PS pensions over 32.5k

Public Sector pensions have been cut if over 32,500 euro in line with workers

2.31 Public Service Pensions:  Separately,  to  this  Agreement,  the  Parties  note  that  the 
Government intends  to  align  the  reductions in  public  service  pensions in  payment with 
the reductions applied to serving staff.   The Parties note that this measure will apply to 
pensions in payment greater than €32,500 only

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

If they were over-70, they would qualify for the medical card.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/entitlement_to_health_services/medical_card.html


Gross income: 50k = €958 per week
Notional interest income = 3% of 250k - 36k = 3% of 214k = €6400 = €123 per week

total income for assessment purposes = €1081 per week

This is below the threshold of €1200 per week which applies for a medical card.

I must say that it is a very high income threshold when you think there are people working hard on two incomes with sick children who would not qualify for a medical card.

I do agree that's high, but what does €32,500 work out after tax? There isn;t much room to cut there imo.

I would have loved to have seen the likes of the bertie ahern and the regulators for instance having they pensions cut by 25-30%

artful_codger

tayto lover wrote: »

So the PS are not going to/using these businesses?

Not businesses which export their products, no, and the Govt are very fond of telling us that we need to export our way out of recession. How can we, when we have such high overheads?

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

I do agree that's high, but what does €32,500 work out after tax? There isn;t much room to cut there imo.

I would have loved to have seen the likes of the bertie ahern and the regulators for instance having they pensions cut by 25-30%

32,500 with over 65s tax credits meaning only USC and reduced PRSI payable, no mortgage, no dependent children, a medical card, free travel and household package - where do I sign up?

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

32,500 with over 65s tax credits meaning only USC and reduced PRSI payable, no mortgage, no dependent children, a medical card, free travel and household package - where do I sign up?

Just work your 40 years or whatever it is and pay your contributions.

I wouldn't cut pensions under 40k myself. Most of those pensioners worked through many recessions.

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

32,500 with over 65s tax credits meaning only USC and reduced PRSI payable, no mortgage, no dependent children, a medical card, free travel and household package - where do I sign up?

We don't know their circumstances. Some may have given cash to help someone get 'on the property ladder' for instance.

I've read a lot of stories about old people getting into difficulty when you'd think they'd be fine.

kippy

Rightwing wrote: »

We don't know their circumstances. Some may have given cash to help someone get 'on the property ladder' for instance.

I've read a lot of stories about old people getting into difficulty when you'd think they'd be fine.

Why stick up for pensioners all of a sudden?

Rightwing

kippy wrote: »

Why stick up for pensioners all of a sudden?

I'm not sticking up for them, just what I see as fair. Pensioners who worked all their lives should get a bit more than those on the welfare.

I'd like to have seen bigger cuts for those earning say over €50K

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm not sticking up for them, just what I see as fair. Pensioners who worked all their lives should get a bit more than those on the welfare.

I'd like to have seen bigger cuts for those earning say over €50K

Pensioners have had the easiest ride for the last few years, everyone else has suffered - social welfare recipient, private sector taxpayer, public servant - but pensioners, they have largely kept their entitlements.

kippy

Godge wrote: »

Pensioners have had the easiest ride for the last few years, everyone else has suffered - social welfare recipient, private sector taxpayer, public servant - but pensioners, they have largely kept their entitlements.

I totally agree, specifically the majority of public sector pensioners who have retired in the past 10 years or so and I would add in politicians as and additional grouping on top of that whose pensions in no way, shape or form reflect the real world.

They are the last to get the "golden" pensions that so many here seem to think ALL public sector workers get. They put in far less to their pension than anyone just starting out in the sector did and will probably end up getting, historically the best pensions this country has ever seen given to public sector workers.
Meanwhile those who joined in the past two years have drastically lesser pensions (perhaps rightly so) and those joined in the time the levy has come in will contribute far more towards the state/pension than those who have just retired (again probably the correct thing to do) however those who have retired in the past decade get almost the best of everything.

Rightwing, it's alright saying " but we don't know what their outgoings are" you can say the same for anyone, worker or otherwise, who has suffered cuts to their incomes.

Rightwing

kippy wrote: »

I totally agree, specifically the majority of public sector pensioners who have retired in the past 10 years or so and I would add in politicians as and additional grouping on top of that whose pensions in no way, shape or form reflect the real world.

They are the last to get the "golden" pensions that so many here seem to think ALL public sector workers get. They put in far less to their pension than anyone just starting out in the sector did and will probably end up getting, historically the best pensions this country has ever seen given to public sector workers.
Meanwhile those who joined in the past two years have drastically lesser pensions (perhaps rightly so) and those joined in the time the levy has come in will contribute far more towards the state/pension than those who have just retired (again probably the correct thing to do) however those who have retired in the past decade get almost the best of everything.

Rightwing, it's alright saying " but we don't know what their outgoings are" you can say the same for anyone, worker or otherwise, who has suffered cuts to their incomes.

I agree, I'm not saying don't cut the pensions, but reduce them by the amount they did seems fine to me, or else you'd have to cut the OAP pensions as well.

Geuze

Rightwing wrote: »

That looks like a flawed case study. That individual would fail the means test to get a medical card for instance.

No, both spouses have a med card. As long as one spouse over 70, the other could be aged 22, then the higher limits apply.

Limit was 1400 pw last year, now 1200.

They qualify.

I know this couple, all is true and correct.

kippy

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, I'm not saying don't cut the pensions, but reduce them by the amount they did seems fine to me, or else you'd have to cut the OAP pensions as well.

For a pension of over 32K a year I dont think 2% is anywhere near enough being honest.

Geuze

tayto lover wrote: »

Public Sector pensions have been cut if over 32,500 euro in line with workers

2.31 Public Service Pensions:  Separately,  to  this  Agreement,  the  Parties  note  that  the 
Government intends  to  align  the  reductions in  public  service  pensions in  payment with 
the reductions applied to serving staff.   The Parties note that this measure will apply to 
pensions in payment greater than €32,500 only

You seem to suggest that PS pesnions have been cut already.

No, the new proposal is to cut them by 2%, if PS pension over 32.5k.

I am saying that this is not enough.

Rightwing

kippy wrote: »

For a pension of over 32K a year I dont think 2% is anywhere near enough being honest.

maybe you are right, but current members will be loathe to be paying into pensions if they are getting slashed.

Geuze

Godge wrote: »

I must say that it is a very high income threshold when you think there are people working hard on two incomes with sick children who would not qualify for a medical card.

This is one of my key points.

Couples with debt and kids need help, not mortgage-free pensioners.

Geuze

Rightwing wrote: »

I do agree that's high, but what does €32,500 work out after tax? There isn;t much room to cut there imo.

In my case study, 50k income in 2010, 5% tax.

Tax = 2,500 on 50,000 gross.

Gumbo

Rightwing wrote: »

maybe you are right, but current members will be loathe to be paying into pensions if they are getting slashed.

Most members will never earn a PS pension of 32k so it won't affect the majority of us.

kippy

Rightwing wrote: »

maybe you are right, but current members will be loathe to be paying into pensions if they are getting slashed.

I don't know if you've noticed already but two points:
1. Pensions contributions in the public service aren't optional.
2. Current members benefits have already been drastically reduced (there are two tiers in this, those whose final pension will be based on an average career earnings and those that started paying the pension levy - group one would be part of group two as well)

I don't disagree with point two (to an extent) however these pensioners that I am referring too have had very little impact on their earnings.

Geuze

Rightwing wrote: »

maybe you are right, but current members will be loathe to be paying into pensions if they are getting slashed.

There's no choice.

Rightwing

kceire wrote: »

Most members will never earn a PS pension of 32k so it won't affect the majority of us.

Who says 32K should be the limit, they could easily reduce that down to €22K.

But I agree, 32K and above is a very good pension.

kippy

Rightwing wrote: »

Who says 32K should be the limit, they could easily reduce that down to €22K.

But I agree, 32K and above is a very good pension.

32K is apparently just under the average industrial wage which I think is 33K although that may have changed. It's also the figure the government chose to impost the cut on. Just making the point that the cut isn't "fair"