Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

woodoo

Jawgap wrote: »

EDIT:- In 2009, clerical staff were paid below the OECD average - I can't imagine their situation has changed much in he wake of the various pay cuts that have been introduced since then.

Thats very interesting about the Clerical Officer data. A lot of the anti PS people on here have been telling is they are vastly overpaid by European standards. The best paid public service in the world we often hear.

skafish

Gryire wrote: »

There is no one debating the the hours worked in the PS are less than the required of 34.75.

I am not sure what positions/salaries you are referring to in your reference to 2009 but if you want to elaborate, please do.

I am not sure what you mean about the idea that the PS is a 'good' job. It is not a 'good' job. It is a boring job suited to certain type of people. I think you will find how you were regarded in 2009 and has not changed in the current environment.

WTF?

I for one, have yet to encounter anybody in the PS who works less than 34.75 hours a week, even those who are lucky enough to employed for so few hours. Personally, before the new rape of my terms and conditions, I am contracted to work 41 hours, but usually end up working more than that without pay. Please support your outrageous claim with some data.

Can you also explain what you regard as boring about the role of, for example, a nurse, or an air traffic controler?
Or what criteria you apply to "certain type of people"? This remark borders on racism.

noodler

The Clerical Officer thing requires more views.

But lets remember that we need only concern ourselves with the blue bars (i.e. ignore the social contributions by the employer and overtime).

The figures are also adjusted for Purchasing Price Parity...I'd love to see their workings as well.

Even after all that, we still pay clerical officers a fair whack more than they do in Britain - our largest trading partner.

Its also worth noting that clerical officer is one of the few public service jobs I can think of which requires no college degree and accounts for a very small percentage of total public service jobs.



Also this point

The following points should also be noted in regard to data provided for the Republic
of Ireland:
1.
The amount shown take into account the decrease of th
e salaries following the
Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 (the public
service pension deduction).

So they have decided to deduct the pension levy which will skew the figures. I also wonder if Neri have done the necessary research to see if there have been calls since 2009 in the countries surveyed to see if they have had larger pension contributions/levies as a result of the crisis.

I also wonder if the 50% of final salary pension clerical officers get is replicated across the countries surveyed.

jamaamaj

Well about time the irish Government grew some balls and are about to take action on legislation for cuts to public sector wages.
And before posters talk about strikes and what not i as a member of the public say..bring it on.

Jawgap

noodler wrote: »

The Clerical Officer thing requires more views.

But lets remember that we need only concern ourselves with the blue bars (i.e. ignore the social contributions by the employer and overtime).

The figures are also adjusted for Purchasing Price Parity...I'd love to see their workings as well.

Even after all that, we still pay clerical officers a fair whack more than they do in Britain - our largest trading partner.

Its also worth noting that clerical officer is one of the few public service jobs I can think of which requires no college degree and accounts for a very small percentage of total public service jobs.



Also this point



So they have decided to deduct the pension levy which will skew the figures. I also wonder if Neri have done the necessary research to see if there have been calls since 2009 in the countries surveyed to see if they have had larger pension contributions/levies as a result of the crisis.

I also wonder if the 50% of final salary pension clerical officers get is replicated across the countries surveyed.

It's OECD data so I assume they know what they are talking about.

Also, as I've said in another thread I don't mind getting what my opposite number in HM Civil Service gets as long as I get the NHS and the proper free education system.........and the proper local services........and the efficient public transport........

ardmacha

I also wonder if the 50% of final salary pension clerical officers get is replicated across the countries surveyed.

I'm sure the €136 /week wonder pension that a clerical officer would receive is available in other European countries, probably twice over.

It's OECD data so I assume they know what they are talking about.

What does the OECD know compared to Boards.ie?

sean200

jamaamaj wrote: »

Well about time the irish Government grew some balls and are about to take action on legislation for cuts to public sector wages.
And before posters talk about strikes and what not i as a member of the public say..bring it on.

Great deal and i am not losing 1 cent but even better is that my wife is going to take the HSE 3 year deal of 12k so we will not have to pay €2000 a month childcare
We need more deals like this

Count Dooku

Jawgap wrote: »

EDIT:- In 2009, clerical staff were paid below the OECD average - I can't imagine their situation has changed much in he wake of the various pay cuts that have been introduced since then.

Mostly because clerical staff in Ireland works less than rest of EU

http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

Tea drinker

Jawgap wrote: »

Has is it been well established and if so where?

According to the OECD...."Middle managers, economists/policy analysts [my bit] and executive secretaries in the Irish public service receive total compensation that is quite close to the OECD average"

The required working week (34.75 hours) is lower than the OECD average, but that's the 'required working week' - the actual hours worked are different and I for one will definitely not work more than the required working week when this deal goes through - if salary is being linked to hours worked instead of job done, then the employer can have the hours paid for, and no more.

I also remember that up until late 2009 we had severe trouble recruiting and retaining staff. I remember more than once being laughed at in an interview when we told people what the starting salaries were, and we had plenty of people start but not even finish their first week - the record was held by one guy who started on Monday morning, go a call about another job and left by 10-30 without even the courtesy of telling anyone he was going!

The idea that the PS is a 'good' job has really only gained traction in the last 3/4 years up until then you were regarded almost as some kind of incompetent idiot who couldn't function anywhere else if you were inclined towards working in a job where service, rather than profit, was core value.




EDIT:- In 2009, clerical staff were paid below the OECD average - I can't imagine their situation has changed much in he wake of the various pay cuts that have been introduced since then.

A catastrophic failure to tackle Ireland's "out of control" public spending means it is now a high-tax economy, it has been claimed.
Despite a budget deficit of €15bn last year, the public pay bill is up to 35 per cent higher than the OECD average and our welfare spend is 29 per cent higher than the average, leading economist and Trinity College senator Sean Barrett has said.
However, junior finance minister Brian Hayes yesterday rejected Dr Barrett's analysis as "overly simplistic" and said the Government had "rigidly stuck" to its promise not to increase income tax.
Dr Barrett rejected claims made earlier last week in a pan-European research paper that Ireland was a low-tax economy. He said it was because of the rampant overspend on public services that we had become a high-tax economy.
"The international comparisons on pay in that report show that Ireland has a high public pay bill," he said. "The OECD average for compensation of employees is 10.8 per cent of GNP and in Ireland it is 14.1 per cent."

http://www.independent.ie/business/economist-warns-that-public-pay-is-out-of-control-29313806.html

Jawgap

GNP excludes FDI and that calculation does not take account of the effect of the pension levy.

GNP also doesn't take account of MNC's repatriated profits on which tax can be or is paid here.


If GNP is the correct way to measure and becnchmark all this why are all the targets specified against GDP? And do international organisations such as the OECD make wider use of GDP instead of GNP?

Farmer Pudsey

Jawgap wrote: »

GNP excludes FDI and that calculation does not take account of the effect of the pension levy.

GNP also doesn't take account of MNC's repatriated profits on which tax can be or is paid here.


If GNP is the correct way to measure and becnchmark all this why are all the targets specified against GDP? And do international organisations such as the OECD make wider use of GDP instead of GNP?

In short in most countries there is little difference between GDP and GNP. However in Irelands case this is skewed by multinationals. Especially as we have targeted the tech and medical industry. Both of these have show there ability to not even pay the minimum level of cooperation tax.

There are large multinationals only paying less than 5% cooperation in this country. I wonder what is the average rate in Ireland as opposed to elsewhere. The Golden Goose might not be as gilded as it was

Jawgap

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In short in most countries there is little difference between GDP and GNP. However in Irelands case this is skewed by multinationals. Especially as we have targeted the tech and medical industry. Both of these have show there ability to not even pay the minimum level of cooperation tax.

There are large multinationals only paying less than 5% cooperation in this country. I wonder what is the average rate in Ireland as opposed to elsewhere. The Golden Goose might not be as gilded as it was

That's all both true and well known, but it still doesn't answer the question of why GDP is used by the Commission, the IMF and the ECB when they discuss our economic situation and why the targets are all couched in GDP.

One of the problems with GNP is that it measures activity outside the country, in other words which ever measure you pick brings it's own problems, but given that the Troika are talking about GDP, it seems a bit of a waste of breath arguing about GNP.